Mikelavigne, thanks for your response. It's good to hear the opinion of someone who has extensive experience with such high quality products.
My question isn't really about value or sound quality. It's more about why are these products so complex. The expense is a byproduct of the complexity. Think A.I. when I say this, "linestages, we're talking about linestages!" How complex do they need to be?
In my earlier reference to high horsepower sedans, I understand that manufacturers make statement products that demonstrate the limits of what they can do. But such products raise the question that beyond a challenging technical/manufacturing exercise, what's the point?
BTW, Mikelavigne's preamp is at the low end of the cost scale compared to some recent entries. |
Simplicity doesn't mean inexpensive, but again we're talking about linestages! A linestage only controls the volume and source, so why shouldn't they be somewhat simple? For the following example I'm going to use product weight as a proxy for component complexity.
As a point of comparison I gather some data about 8 top of the range linestages. In the first group I put EMM Labs, Pass Labs, BAT and EAR. The average price is $13,125 and the average weight is 48lbs. In the second group I put Soulution, MBL, Constellation and Boulder. The price average is $38,700 and the weight is 88lbs. Roughly speaking, the second group is 3x as expensive and 2x the weight of the first group of linestages.
I freely admit that my groupings are totally arbitrary, limited and thereby possibly misleading, but I think it makes a certain point. Each of the companies and/or designers have impressive track records of producing superb quality products. I make the assumption that each company could produce any product they envision and that they have the imagination/brilliance to conceive at the state of the art level. Yet there seems to be a clear dividing line as to what is the vision of a top grade linestage. While still very expensive, one grouping is much less expensive than the other as well as being significantly less complex. |
As a group audiophiles work hard to attain subtle improvements in performance. As such I'm a little disappointed by the lack of subtlety in some of the responses. I don't see how someone could reduce my comments here to a criticism of people buying expensive components. As I see it there has been a trend at the higher end of equipment, which by definition is expensive, towards increasingly complex and as a result even more expensive linestages. It's the increasing complexity of the products that seems to be driving the cost upwards. Implicit in my comments is a belief that linestages really shouldn't be that complex a device. I could be very wrong about that belief. So rather than go on about the tax code, explain to me why the increasing complexity of some recent linestages. Is it only a matter of time before someone releases an 8 chassis linestage weighing 300 lbs. and costings $150,000. And I'm sure some will say that's progress.
The idea that the manufacturers of these products are charging "what the market will bear" is somewhat insulting to the people who buy these products. If Mikelavigne is a valid example, then this group of people aren't fools. They seem to be a performance driven as any other group of audiophiles. |
Atmasphere, could you perhaps comment on the original post. I notice that your top linestage retails for around $12k and weighs slightly less than 50lbs (a two box design no less). This is more or less in line price and weight wise with products being offered by VTL, Pass, EMM or EAR. As a thought exercise, what would your top linestage feature if you built it to a $35k price point? |
Atmasphere, thanks for taking a try at my question. I realize it is not a trivial inquiry. I find it refreshing that while you design what I consider a very expensive expensive linestage that you don't see any technical or sonic need to come out with an ultra expensive product.
On another note -- I find the argument that a linestage is needed to correct for the source component's imperfections a very un-audiophile like line of reasoning. For if the source requires correction, then why stop at a linestage? Why not insert a device with graphic/parametric EQ, phase compensation, reverb, compression, harmonic overtone generator, etc.? And you can't use the old signal purity argument since you've already argued that a multi-gain stage device with signal switching and volume control is required anyway. |
Knghifi, you should take a course in basic microeconomic theory. They are available at any community college. Pay particular attention to when the prof talks about market equilibrium. You might even want to ask a question about the phrase "in the long run". With your new found knowledge you'll understand why your Mazda comment is not particularly insightful.
Grannyring, I never said the source was perfect and your distinction between complement/correct would be very hard to define. After all, a 1.5dB boost at 275Hz with a half octave bandwidth coupled with a dynamically triggered 2nd harmonic overtone generator might both complement and correct and correct a cool sounding digitally sourced signal. |
A manufacturer will charge whatever the market will bear. It has nothing to do with design, manufacturer cost ... as long as there is demand for whatever reason. Knghifi, sorry I don't understand. Perhaps you could provide a few examples of high end linestages that fit your model of business behavior. Alternatively, you could explain how demand for higher end linestages is unrelated to design considerations or manufacturing costs. |
Goldeneraguy, I for one wasn't complaining about the price of items or knocking those who buy them. I simply observed that a new, very much higher price level seems to have emerged for top of the line preamps. Is it not a fair question to ask what prompts a tripling in price for what essentially should be a fairly simple electronic device? Could you provide an example of a linestage manufacturer who's product pricing bears no relation to his manufacturing/marketing/distribution costs?
Knghifi, how did I know you would sidestep the questions? I'm just glad I live in a society where people can make outrageous claims and then not back them up. It's all part of the price for a free society. |
Applause to Charles1dad for actually backing up his convictions by naming names.
At this point I may be talking out of both sides of my mouth but I think it comes down to what the consumer thinks he is paying for. I believe that Atmasphere's comments are correct when the consumer is focused on sonic issues. The consumer has many choices and the competition is fierce. In accord with basic microeconomic theory a manufacturer in this situation would have a hard go if he tries to price his product significantly above the competition. The situation changes radically if sound quality is not a high priority. If the consumer is buying because of, let's call it exclusivity, then the manufacturer has far more leeway in what he can price his product. The consumer has to believe that the product cannot be easily substituted for by another product of equal or better quality. In their mind there is something unique or exclusive about that particular product. If you want to buy the model of car that won the 1962 24 LeMans, that's one thing. If you want to buy the actual Ferrari that won the race, it's a whole other thing.
Based upon the responses to this thread by actual owners of high cost linestage they very clearly state that they purchased based upon sound quality.
I am not familiar with every company you mention, but I suspect Kondo and Audio Note fall into the exclusivity camp. That's not to say these companies aren't making superb products -- it's only to note that there is heavy mystique surrounding them. Magico has clearly moved into the sound quality camp. When they were doing one-off horns they might have be exclusivity sellers, but that's not the case now. Their product line has diversified and they freely admit that their newer, less expensive products are better than what they sold before. |
Grannyring, it was the Constellation review that prompted my original post. It appears to be an enormously complex product for a linestage. Whether or not the Constellation pushes some theoretical state of the art is a question I'll probably never know. But I will ask is that level of complexity and its resulting cost really necessary for top level performance? My gut level reaction is that's it overkill for a device that adds 12dB of gain, switches between sources and adjusts the volume level. It's just my opinion. |
