Merlin TSM comparisons

Tvad,
I'm assuming you also see me hitting the Texas lottery in your crystal ball, too! ;-)

i am using a copper tinned o ring connectors now. the spades i got from the dealer were were just a pressure fit (no solder) and gold plated. so i would think what we have now is better sounding but i will know more in a few days.
sorry.
best, b

Hello, John,
I bought the larger, spade connectors for the speaker, and the banana plugs for the amplifier end. The distributor will solder them for you, if you like, but I think it costs something like 30 bucks per connection (or maybe that's per pair, I don't remember) and Lars, who runs the distributor, said that they cannot really hear any positive advantage to soldering the connections. The small, spade connectors have a little tightening screw. The only tricky thing about using it, if our member correctly, is that it requires a metric hex wrench. The banana connectors are kind of interesting, as they allow you to have the cable coming in either flat to the banana plug itself, or at a 90° angle. You'd have to see it, it's hard to describe.

I spoke to somebody at Merlin, it wasn't Bobby, who said that while they love the Classic 6.0 cable, they had some doubts about the connectors causing some “smearing.” Bobby, is that correct?

Rebbi and Bobby,

Did you get Supra connectors? Spades? If so, I'm wondering which size. I see both a standard size and XL on the SJOFN website. Also: did you need solder them? I'm not very handy - at all - with a soldering iron.

Thanks!
John

rebbie and paul, the tin plated wires will reduce skin effect by increasing the resistance on the out side of the strands forcing more of the signal through the middle of the strand. brilliant!
you always start with a 6 guage difference or more from jumper or hf wire. these hf wires should be no bigger than 15 gauge. so 9 is a good place to start.
stupid good for the money is what it is.
just went for a quick listen again.
b

Tabl10s,
Yep, this is the same Swedish company that makes the Sword.

Pubul57: I can't speak for Bobby, but when I was looking for a reasonably priced cable, Bobby gave me two requirements: it should be 9 gauge and made from finely stranded copper. The only currently made cable that I could find that met these specs was the Supra Classic 6.0 -- not even Monster makes anything in a 9 gauge wire anymore. Additionally, the Classic 6.0 features copper strands that are plated with tin, to increase conductivity and reduce (supposedly) "skin effect." From Bobby I've gleaned, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that the 9 gauge requirement has to do with making a match to the Cardas jumpers. The rest of the design rationale I can't explain.

Is this the same company that makes the cable called the "Sword"?

Hi Bobby. What is it about the design philosophy that makes sense?

rebbi, guppy, hififile, got the connectors today and have the supra classic 6 in my ref system. it is not broken in but wow!!!! this stuff is really very good and stupid good for the money. imho, for around $50 with connectors this product puts a lot of high priced cable to shame on merlin speakers.
makes me want to try their litz pressure stamped wires.
as i said, the design philosophy makes perfect sense.
i had an idea it would be really good.
best, b

Great. Yes, I had to order the connectors, too. :-)

hi, got the wire and it looks very interesting but i need connectors and am waiting for them now.
bobby

I'll be looking forward to what Bobby thinks too. I'd love to find something good and inexpensive for my beloved TSMs.

Excellent, Bobby, thanks! Eager to hear your thoughts in comparison to other products!

guppy, hififile and rebbi, just spoke to brian at madisound and he is sending me some 6.0 to audition so i will be back to you on this.
the design philosophy and gauge are perfect, imho.
should be a good product.
b

BTW it is Sjofn HiFi not Sjofn.

Hififile,
Thank you for the info, maybe the Supra 3.4 is the logical upgrade from the Supra Classic 6.0.

I have been using Supra 3.4 and Rondo with my TSM's. I also own Cardas Quadlink and Borrowed some Cardas Cross. In a direct comparison the Supra 3.4 gave me the best sound. Great speaker wire and Interconnects at very reasonable prices.

This might be one of those really good match/synergy mates for the TSM's.

Guppy,

Thrilled to hear that you like the Supra Classic 6.0. I'll be really eager to hear what Bobby P. thinks, since he has the basis for making a comparison with the more expensive stuff.

I got some Supra Classic 6.0 and I think it works very well with the TSMs and for the money it offers fantastic value. Thank you Rebbi. I think this will suffice until I can afford some Cardas cable. Also Lars at Sfojn Audio is a pleasure to do with.

i have to get some to try.
b

On another note, thought I'd toss out there that I've been using Supra Classic 6.0 cables with my TSM-mmi's. My budget wouldn't accommodate Cardas, even used. On Bobby's advice, I looked for a finely stranded copper cable with a 9 gauge diameter. The Supra 6.0 matches these specs, and each strand of the copper is plated with tin, supposedly to decrease "skin effect."
The system is sounding increasingly gorgeous to me, as I dial things in and the speakers break in and settle in. Unfortunately, I don't have experience using other cables with my TSM's, so I cannot compare them to other cables. But given the current economic climate, I thought a potential "budget alternative" cable for Merlins might be useful to someone.
As for acquiring them, Madisound has them, or you can order direct from the distributor, sjofnhifi.com .
As for price, my 3 meter pair, with termintations (which I attached myself) ran less than $150, including shipping!
Bobby, love to hear your opinions on these one day.

we start in exactly the same location and work from there.
in essence the set up is designed to minimize boundary reflections and maximize boundary reinforcements.
so yes the tsm may like a little more bass help by the room and the vsm may be aided by more extension.
this is 1/3 to 1/4 wave aligment.
best, b

Will try the small move, might dial them in even more than they are now. How do TSM and VSM placement recommedations differ? I assume you look for a bit more bass reinforcement with the TSMs.

sounds like it is a little more to my liking than the golden rule would be. because the speakers are designed with their power response they like to be listened to a little farther away. 9.5 to 10 feet is my preference. if the rear wall is not damped with drapes or wall hangings leave them as they are but if it is damped move them back to 48 to 50. listen at 10 feet and adjust the toe angle.
then compare. won't matter is the side reflection panels are in the right place. but all in all i know i would like what you have done.
best, b

So, I measured. The tweeter is 5"6" from the rear wall. The tweeters are 6' apart and 2'6" from the side wall. And I my head is 9'6" from the plane of the speakers. And it sounds great. Not exactly "Cardas" but close:). By the way, you were right about the Dueland capacitors for the BAM and RC Network. Thanks for the guidance.

are the the windows covered in curtains, if not i would.
anything else on the rear wall other than the traps like a wall hanging or the like. think about these points.
if the wall is damped you can move them closer to it to reinforce the deepest bass by producing a longer bass wavelegnth to the listening position. right now you are set up between 1/4's and 1/3's which will hit more in the central bass. i would even try moving them in to 5.5 feet tweeter to tweeter and see what you think. what is your listening distance?
9.5 to 10 feet is optimal.
best, b

On short wall, 2 open windows in center, bass traps in rear corners, and acoustic panels to the sides in front of speakers. Currently have them 5 feet from back wall and 6 feet apart center to center, or 2 1/2' tweeter center to side walls - toed in to listening position with alignment tool.

paul, on the short wall?
is the short wall draped or damped?
b

Bobby, in an 18x11 size room, what placement would you recommend for the TSM, VSM - same for both?

I have experimented with my new TSM's position quite a bit over the last few days. At about 7 feet apart and 10 feet from listening position I get as near a perfect image and stage as I've heard from any system. But placing the speakers further apart seemed to "open up" some lesser recordings. The toe-in is also fun to play with. In the end I tend to return to the suggested placement.

One thing I found is that my Skylan stands (4 post) were not doing a great job when filled with kitty litter. I switched over to sand and things are now much better! I'm officially thumbs down on kitty litter as I do not believe that it's as effective at acoustic damping.

Cheers,

Rob

rebbi, i have used the speaker as little as 5.5 feet apart but only in a very narrow room and this was at a show.
farther apart the bass may tighten as you have less summing but it also may have lightened a touch.
imho, with a speaker as uniform as the tsm is in dispersion and bandwidth it becomes very easy to sense when you are right or wrong in set up refinements. and after you get used to what they do, it becomes even easier to dial them in. when a new pair is purchased and the owner reads the set up instructions, he can pretty much have them 100% right fromm the get go. i have designed an aligment tool so you can adjust the toe angle and made helpful recommendations from my years working with them. follow them and you should be all set.
good show.
do those things to your room and you will be even more happy.
best, b

One thing I'll say about my TSM's is that they reveal everything. Even a small change in something is audible. For example, the setup instructions recommend that the speaker tweeters be between six and seven feet apart, but no more. Mine were a few inches less than six feet apart. I moved them a little over 6 feet apart and readjusted the toe-in with the set up tool. The soundstage bloomed even further, and the low end seems to have firmed up considerably. Interesting!

Never mind, I retract my last question! I just discovered a huge (and pretty cantankerous) "Merlin TSM versus Green Mountain Calisto" thread. One of those is enough!

rebbi, a very fine product with 1st order networks.
guppy, it is the alignment tool.
best, b

m, the impedance has been corrected so it is constant and a little high making them particularly tube friendly but they are still wonderful with ss. there is a review link to andio morotti the founder of fedelta del suono in italy on the main page of the merlin site. in it he discusses his feelings of the tsm with ss and tubes. perfectly described imho. it is a review of the tsm mme which is the predecessor to the mmi. the hf circuit in the tsm is q circuited.
best regards,
bobby

Back to the "comparison" part of this thread's subject, for a moment. Any of you folks ever gotten to compare TSM's to Green Mountain Audio products? I was reminded of this when
I noticed a pair of Green Mountain Audio Callistos up on sale here. Thoughts?

Yes the TSM directions and positioning the speakers correctly makes a big difference. Even a slight adjustment can make a big difference and the angled wood tool,I forgot the name, that comes with the speaker is easy to use so even a klutz like me can get it right.

I suspect the Merlins and tube amps represent a particularly tasty and effective combo.

I've heard Totem Mani IIs for example. Wonderful speakers, but need lots of good SS juice to peak and justify the cost. Dynaudios are similar I believe.

Even the Magico minis when I heard them were running off a top notch VAC tube amp with more tubes in the VTL pre-amp and a $20,000 DCS player (which does some very special things with its DAC technology). How much of the magic was Magico and how much the tube gear? And or the DCS Ring DAC? Hard to say. The combo was very "sweet" though in the best audio sense.

Someday I suspect I will venture into tube amp waters. WHen I do, I think the Merlins will become especially appealing also.

Yes, Bobby is correct. I have an ICE amp, a Bel Canto S300.

g, the tsm directions?
yes of course, this speaker is designed with its power response and it needs to be listened to the way it was designed. it also wants to be listened to on its musical center and not on tweeter axis. use of the jumpers and not internal bi-wires or shotguns also make a profound difference as they should. piece of cake once you understand what is going on. i have worked on them for over 13 years so i know the ropes and it takes all of the guess work out of the set up.
best, b

I found that following the directions mad a BIG difference in sound.

m, the two speakers are essentially the same but the crossover components are picked to a different tolerance, the woofers have a different amount of latex coating on them, the torque settings on the fasteners are set differently and the undercaots of the finish are different. a polymer coat adds mass to the mx-r which makes the cabinet a little quieter, the sound more continuous from top to bottom so there is more resolution.
there is an obvious difference in the way they sound because they are tuned differently.
the mmi is easier to get great sound out of while the mx-r does sound more right/better but you need a better system to get it out of them.
ok?
best, b
best, b

Also one last comment about OHM Walshes and monitors.

I see OHM Walshes properly matched to room competing more with full range speakers in general, though they are certainly good for near field listening as well, which is a monitors in general. Other than for nearfield listening, I consider the OHMs and monitors to be two totally different solutions intended for two totally different kinds of listeners.

Bobby,

Curious about the two versions and use with SS versus tubes.

My understanding is the difference is the finish and perhaps cabinet construction. IS that correct?

Is the extra rigidity or damping ability of the upper model what makes it more tube friendly?

Thanks.

Bobby,

Thanks for the info.

I'll keep an eye out for the opportunity to audition teh MErlins and see if they convince me to jump from what I have.

Yes, as Rebbi pointed out, OHM Walsh (and omnis in general) do imaging differently than monitors, planars or any other more directional designs. I will not say necessarily better or worse, just different. Some will take to it and never look back and others will not. To me, it is more like what you hear at a live event and less like a typical stereo presentation. The large sweet spot is a unique feature as well.

I like good monitors for their ability to allow you to focus into recording details, particularly at lower volumes. You can do this with properly set up OHMs as well, but it is different. Also I like to play music at realistic volumes and delivering a live like presentation at live like volumes is a forte of the OHMs. If not for that, I may have been satisfied with my Dynaudio monitors which I acquired prior up trying out the newer OHM Walshes.

mapman because you are using ss with the ohms then the tsm i would recommend and the most reasonable is the mmi version. this is the one that rebbi is using and he uses a class d amp i believe. hoever both versions would perform very well with ss.
thank you, b

I had another long session with the new TSM-XMr's this evening. I swapped out the Skylan stand pegs for spikes and experimented with placement. After about 40 minutes I had a none-too subtle improvement in the mid bass and the speakers tightened up even more.

I went to some well known material....Fleetwood Mac, Joan Baez and a revealing acoustic of Everlong. The Merlins are amazing. Name the audiophile phrase of approval and they were there. What's exciting is that I'm still missing the Cardas interconnect and a better CD player in the mix. And of course break-in is far from complete.

I finished off with another old favorite; Copland conducts Copland (version with old American songs).....absolutely splendid.

Cheers and goodnight!

Rob

Guppy:

I agree tubes don't work well with the OHMS, but the Unison Research Unico hybrid did a nice job. I thought the Triangle Cometes performed much better with tubes.

I ran my Ohm Walsh Micro Talls and my Ohm 100's with a Unison Unico. It sounded sweet, but when I switched to separates (a Manley Shrimp tube pre and a Bel Canto S300 with 150 w/ch) it really kicked the Ohms up a couple of notches. Yeah, the Ohms like power and current, for sure.