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"Anyone know the reason why McIntosh does not give this model a 4 Ohm rating? Especially if it supposedly tested as such?"
My best guess would be that McIntosh is known to be one of those brands you turn to if you need something very powerful, kind of like a Bryston or Krell. 100 McIntosh watts should be comparable to just about any other brand. But that's just a guess on my part. I agree with you in that they should have listed a 4 ohm rating. It can't hurt them. |
"06-05-15: Stereo5
McIntosh uses auto transformers which makes the power output the same into 4,8 & 16 ohm speakers."
That's true on most of their amps, but the MA5200 doesn't have them.
That may be the answer to your question Paraneer. Maybe they don't post anything other than 8 ohm's so the amp doesn't stand out as being different. I bet a lot of people assume like Stereo5, that their amps all have autoformers. |
"06-05-15: Effischer
It always surprises me when people don't check the manufacturer's documentation that is available online at no cost. The manual for MA5200 clearly states in three places that the MA5200 is designed for speakers with an impedance rating of 8 ohms."
Actually, I did check the manual before posting. Regardless, you're not taking all of the variables into consideration, as well as guessing yourself.
An 8 ohm rating for a pair of speakers doesn't tell the whole story. 8 ohms is an average rating. That means a speaker can present loads to an amp that are higher, and lower than 8 ohms. Many speakers can easily drop down to 4 ohms and below under normal use, even though they are rated for 8. So the reality is, you can have 2 pairs of speakers both rated at 8 ohms, and one may be difficult to drive, and the other easy.
"The German magazine found exactly what would be expected for output into a 4 ohm load, but because Mc doesn't explicitly state output values into 4 or 2 ohms as they do for other products, the amp section likely becomes unstable those average loads. In short, it will work but will get hot and eventually distort the signal. Mc makes a terrific product line, but this is their entry-level integrated."
Given that information, I think the opposite is most likely true. First, you have the German magazine that found the amp does double its power under a 4 ohm load. Most amps can't do that and still have a clean signal with low distortion. Second, McIntosh states the amp is rated for an 8 ohms speaker, and that's it. No restrictions are listed. They know full well that most 8 ohm speakers, at times, will drop down to 4 ohms and below. That implies the amp will be able to drive any 8 ohm speaker, even the difficult ones. You can even have a situation where an 8 ohm speaker is more difficult to drive than a 4 ohm speaker.
Jimmymac,
What kind of speakers do you have? Maybe one of us has some experience with them. |
Those speakers are easy to drive. If anything, you can make the case that the MA5200 is overkill. The combo should sound fine. I heard the Special 25's several times, and in every case they were paired with an amp that was less powerful than the Mac. |
After the above conversation, I decided to check out Dynaudio's web site to see what they currently offer. I did a search and happened to come across a Stereophile review of your speakers. Normally, I don't read reviews, but I just wanted to see what they were using to power the speakers. This is a section from the measurements portion of the review.
"Sidebar 3: Measurements
I estimated the Special Twenty-Five's voltage sensitivity at 89.3dB(B)/2.83V/m, 1dB higher than the specified 88dB. The speaker is specified as a 4 ohm load, but as its impedance plot (fig.1) reveals, it drops to this figure for only a small range of frequencies in the lower midrange. The impedance actually stays above 6 ohms for most of the audioband, which, in conjunction with the generally modest electrical phase angle and the higher-than-average sensitivity, suggests that the Special Twenty-Five is a fairly easy amplifier load."
The only real choice here is if you like the sound of the MA5200. Having enough power for your speakers won't be an issue. Personally, I think it will sound very good. Especially with the built in dac. |
"I'm the type of Audiogoner who like high end sound but doesn't always understand a lot of the science behind the specs. :)"
Its like my dead grandmother always said: "You don't have to be a scientist to listen to music." |
" I don't like do-overs. Go with something rated for the load."
There's only 1 load here and it has nothing to do with the speakers or the amp.
"The reality is that the MA5200 is designed for an 8 ohm nominal load, not 4. Given how well make Mc is, it won't fail, but it is safe to predict that it won't sound its best either."
And how do you come up with this? You're just guessing because you don't want to be wrong. Most 8 ohm speakers can and do drop down to 4 and below. If you look at this from a common sense standpoint, it eliminates most speakers on the market. Unless the customer wants to get into horns, or some other type of unusual design, what are you going to pair it with? You're implying that a Sony receiver in Best Buy rated for a 4 ohm load will be able to handle the OP's speakers better than the 5200. Does that make sense?
" Some stuff that should sound good doesn't, other stuff is the opposite and sometimes very minor tweaks can make major differences. That's one reason why Mc puts 8, 6 and 4 ohm terminals on their higher end models and publishes stability ranges."
That's not true either. They do it because they have to. Its the nature of the design. EVERY amp that uses autoformers/output transformers has to list the specs of the different taps they put on the amp. And yes, you can point out that some transformer amps only have 1 set of taps, like some of CJ's. True, but they still list it as an 8 or 4 ohm tap, and you can open it up and change the setting to 8 or 4 ohms. So those type of amps still conform.
Why don't you do your homework and see if McIntosh will back your arguments. I'm willing to bet they won't, unless you don't give them all the facts. The OP doesn't have an old pair of ML's or B&W theater speakers, he has the Special 25's. Although, not to get too far off point, I've owned both of those speakers, and unless the OP has a very large room and/or demands very high volumes, the MA5200 will have no problems driving them as well. But lets just stick with the OP's speakers, because thats reality. You may just find out that your experiences are not the only experiences that exist in the world. |
Jimmymac,
I have to apologize. I got caught up in all of this bickering and didn't realize what was going on. Quite a few people on this web site don't like me. I tend to speak my mind, not trust reviews and use listening as my primary method for component selection, even if what I hear contradicts the specs on a piece equipment. When I read Parneer's post, the first thing I said to myself is that I must be in the Twilight Zone. And then it hit me. I had to offend them in another thread. Its the only way that I can explain their posts.
Parneer,
Your last post is unbelievable. And I mean that literally. I don't believe you. In your first post you say this.
06-05-15: Paraneer
A German Hi Fi Mag. Stereoplay found 206WPC into 4 Ohm. McIntosh does not provide a 4Ohm measure.
And that is one the reasons why I did not buy this amp and went with my Marantz reference unit instead
Now, in your last post you say this.
Again, I strongly considered this amp and auditioned it with a pair of Sonus Faber Cremonas, a 4 Ohm speaker. And while the MA5200 did drive them, the Marantz PM15S2 (90 wpc into 8 & 140 wpc into 4) did a much better job. So much so that this is the amp I went with to drive my VA's and have no regrets. I would suggest to anyone with 4 Ohm speakers to be leery of this particular Mac product.
That's a lie. You did no such thing. If you really compared them side by side, you would have said that in your first post. Its the most relevant piece on information you have to offer, and you're just bringing it up now, after the fact? What's even more remarkable is that even presented with facts about the 5200, you ignore them, but you do quote them. Under ideal circumstances an amps power should double as resistance is halved. The McIntosh clearly does this in the specs you reference from the German magazine that tested the amp. Your Marantz, however, does not. For 90 watts at 8 ohms, you only get 140 at 4 ohms. The McIntosh clearly out performs it. The Marantz is a toy. The only thing it has going for it is that its made in Japan, not China.
In the future, if you have an issue with me, come to me with it. You high jack a thread where the OP is just looking for some good advice and twist everything around just to be spiteful. You end up looking like the fool that you are.
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Effischer,
My last post was directed to Paraneer. I thought I addressed the comments to him. If I didn't, it was an error on my part. But looking at your other posts, I really didn't see the relevance in talking about the B&W's and ML's, when we already know the OP's speakers and they aren't anything like the 2 you list. Also, this whole thing with the 4 ohms is silly. The tests confirmed the amp doubles its output at 4 ohms. What more do you want? To suggest the MA5200 won't have enough power in the OP's application is ridiculous. If you don't want to argue, thats fine with me. But when you post confusing stuff that can't help the OP at all because its not in context, its kind of hard to stand by and say nothing. |
This is getting old.
" I believe there are others who think this way too. In others words, yours isn't the last word pal."
You're right. Its not about me or you, its about the OP.
"What I can't figure out is why you are advocating this model if you don't trust reviews either?"
Once again, its not about me advocating anything, its about the OP. I don't really care for McIntosh myself, but the amp isn't for me. Also, I'm not trusting any reviews. A review is an opinion. I just quoted the specs. They don't support your argument, so you don't count them as valid. If the same exact specs supported your argument, they would be fine. You're only concern is to win the argument, and in doing so you missed the point of the discussion. And that is to determine if the MA5200 will have enough power to drive the OP's speakers properly. Given everything we looked at, the answer is yes. In this application, it won't lack for power.
I still don't believe for a second that you actually tested both amps, side by side. If you did, it would have been in your first post. Pure BS on your part. |
"To Jimmymac, follow your initial instincts and be leery of this model. Don't listen to me but do take Effischer's advice seriously - he is a Mac owner and doesn't recommend it. Good luck to you Jimmymac."
Now does that really make sense? You're proving my point that you just want to be right at any cost. Why take Effischer's advice seriously, but not yours? You just happen to offer the same advice. The way I see it, no one has to take anyones advice. We have the OP's speakers and specs, as well the info on the potential amp. The match seemed questionable so we have Stereophiles review of the speakers that includes measurements. JA's measurements show the speakers to be an easy load for just about any amp. We have the measurements on the amp from the German magazine showing the amp is fully capable driving a 4 ohm load. So what more do you want? Its a relatively simple call. You're just pissed because you wanted to be the spec guy and you turned out to be wrong. You made the call without knowing the OP's speakers and you turned out to be wrong. Better luck next time.
I'll bring this up one last time. Over and over you say I don't trust reviews. You're correct. I don't trust reviews. Its too hard for someone to put into words exactly how something sounds. Factor in their personal taste, experience and equipment, and you have an equation that I don't feel you can rely on. At no point in this discussion did I reference a review. Measurements are not reviews. Its not the reviewers opinion that the Mac amp put out 200 watts into a 4 ohm load. He took a measurement, and those were the results.
You may have the last word on this. I don't have anything else to say on the matter that I didn't already say several times. The only thing I'll add it to Effischer. In the first part of my post, I mentioned you. It wasn't meant to be an insult or anything similar. I was just making the point that with all the info the OP has, he doesn't need to take anyones advice on this matter. |
