While waiting for my (Denon) APL 3910 to arrive, I need some help in coming up with a short list of power cords to audition with it. In addition to listing the PCs you liked best with this unit, it would be most helpful if you could provide some specificity. In particular, what sonic and musical virtues are the offspring when the particular PC is mated with the APL 3910? Sonically speaking, which PCs didn't do as well with it? Are there any PCs that mate well (or don't mate well) with digital sources in general?
Tvad, At this stage, I have not made any firm decisions on Hydra 8 or the power cables. I'm trying to do my homework, with the gracious input from you all, to define some options for power filtration and a short list of PCs as a starting point. And then, let my ear-brain-heart-soul determine my choices on the basis of experience.
Sean's suggestion for a parallel line filter at each outlet that will feed the amps sounds good. If it's viable, I may not need an AC conditioner for the amps, just some good power cords for my Jadis and Krell amps. Those power cords will be the subject of another thread. If additional filtration for the amps is necessary, Hydra 2 and 4 are the front runners in my mind. I definitely want filtration for the APL. I will contact Shunyata about the elements in their Venoms. Their answer may determine which Hydra I will settle for the APL. I'm open to trying the Foundation Research LC1 and LC2.
I'm also grateful for all your suggestions for my short list of PCs for the APL: Virtual Dynamics, Mini Khan Plus, AirSine, Wolf Carbon Source, Foundation Research. Elrod EPS 2 sig was recommended on another website. But I couldn't find its price or website. Does anyone know? John
Not to belabor things here, but just to complete my thoughts for those reading this thread, I found that using a 20-amp Shunyata Anaconda Alpha from the wall (plain old 15 amp non-dedicated line) to the Hydra 8, and another Anaconda Alpha from the Hydra to the amp (Edge NL12) works really well. The bass (especially the problematic upper bass) is much more open & transparent, with no ear-pounding pressure, even with my rear-ported speakers too close to the wall. Grain was removed from the rest of the spectrum, too, but detail & 3D-ness remains. There is just that sense of all-is-well that lets you breathe & listen. I tried other cords in this loop (TG SLVR, Kimber PK10 Palladium), with & w/o the Hydra, & found the above setup to be the best by far.
Samuel, Thank you for clarifying the issue about the analog outlets in Hydra 8, and for providing the information about the Hydra 2. Both explanations are relevant to my decision making.
As you can see from my posts above, the Hydras are my front runners for power line conditioning. Which Hydra, and how many, hopefully, will be determined after some additional clarifications.
Besides the additional filtering on the analog outlets in Hydra 8, are there other differences in the filtering process in the four Hydras? The specifications on Shunyata's website product page list a 4, 7, 10, and 16 element Venom Noise Filters in Hydra 2, 4, 6, and 8, respectively. Do the differences in the number of elements determine differences in the quality of filtration, the type of filtration, or both? These are relevant questions for making an intelligent choice. Specifically, which Hydra would be most appropriate for just the CD player alone? Or, more realistically, what are the sonic trade-offs for a CD player with each of the four Hydras?
As for the amps, I have two mono Jadis JA80 tube amps driving the Wilson Audio Watt/Puppies and one Krell amp driving the Wilson Audio WHOW subwoofer. Since I have 3 dedicated 20 amp AC lines, it will be possible for me to isolate the high current components from the low-current ones, and possibly isolate the right channel from the left one. In view of your information about Hydra 2, it appears that using Hydra 2s on my three amps would be optimal.
I would like to be as close to optimal as possible, but I'm also motivated to be as economic as possible. The bottom line question is: Based on the experience of people within your company, and the feedback from your dealers and clients, what is the sonic cost if I just plug all four components into a Hydra 8 instead of using some combination of the Hydras?
Thank you in advance for your consideration of my questions. John
Thanks for the response Grant. Having said what you did though, you never provided any type of rebuttal pertaining to the facts that the outlets are all wired in daisy-chain fashion with the resultant potential for heavy current draw to modulate the AC voltage & current available to other devices or that there isn't the potential for crosstalk / cross-contamination from outlet to outlet.
Parallel filters are just that i.e. parallel to the existing path. That doesn't mean that these filters absolutely will absorb all of the incoming or outgoing noise, just that there is a parallel path to the filter for the noise to take outside of heading into the next component or back into the main AC feed.
Having said that, I would be curious as to what level of "isolation" is provided from one outlet to the other outlet within the duplex and how much isolation there is from one duplex to the next. Obviously, this would be somewhat frequency dependent, but if Shunyata has conducted the exhaustive type of R&D that you claim that they have in designing this series of products, all of this data should be readily available. For that matter, the amount of voltage / current that can be pulled from one outlet without creating sag in any other outlet within a Hydra should also be a matter of recorded data that i and many others would be interested in. I say that because others have questioned the use of a Hydra for both their amplifier(s) and line level components simultaneously.
As far as having an agenda, i'm not involved in the audio industry in any way, shape or form. I'm simply sharing my own technical observations and analysis based on the descriptive information as provided by your website and other sources that supposedly received their information directly from Shunyata. Feel free to confirm or deny any of it at your leisure, but please be at least somewhat specific in your response. Saying that something doesn't happen or isn't possible when logic dictates that such things do occur and / or are possible isn't much of a reply from a company that makes high profile, high cost products of a technical nature. Sean >
Tvad, Samuel's information about the Hydra 2 are relevant to Perry's observations. Also, his explanation about the additional filtration in the analog outlets in Hydra 8, reinforces the positive comments I read and heard about the Hydra 8. I'm hoping his answers to my questions about the differences in the Venom Filters will be as clear and as helpful. John
Sean, thanks for the reply. You are correct in that I did not directly address your technical points, and that is because I would not be as well equipped as Caelin (who designed the Hydras) to provide as complete an answer. I will however speak with him about your queries and get back to you asap.
I did not claim that you specifically have an agenda, but the talk forums seem to breed people that do, and some individuals seek out circular argument just for sport--and they have nothing to lose. Companies that run a legitimate business with some type of commercial profile are prime targets. I know that you do not run any type of related business, but I have also noted your comments that you are considering it, and that is not entirely irrelevant to your questions.
Related to another question about individual systems and dedicated lines/Hydras. I would prefer to answer those queries via e-mail or phone and not take up forum space with a reply.
In general, if one has multiple dedicated lines, it is always best to make use of them and separate high-current from low-current electronics. No one power distribution product can overcome the advantage of separating electronics on their own lines--which is why we make the H2's, 4's and 6's.
I can be reached via grant@shunyata.com if there are other specific questions.
Sean, I will get back to you either directly or with a reply to the thread if it is still here.
PureMusic, I bought the Hydra 8 because along with the APL 3910 I also have plugged into it:
APL 3910 Sony 60" LCD TV Panasonic DVD recorder Marantz CD recorder Denon 5803 surround sound Denon 5900 DVD Player Voom Satellite Reciever Cable Hi-Def Reciever
Before Purchasing the APL 3910 I was using a Melos Preamp that was plugged into a Hydra 2 along with my Krell Amp. Now only the Krell Amp is plugged into the Hydra 2
Tvad, Thanks for your suggestions to look at the PS Audio Ultimate High Current conditioner. I did some initial checking and read some reviews. It has a small balun type of a filter. I'm hoping someone familiar with this type of a transformer could shed some light.
Sean, can you weigh-in on this, or if you have already done so in another thread, would you be so kind as to provide a link.
Ozzy, Thanks for your response. You maxxed out the Hydra 8!
Rgs 92, Your set up sounds great! I have run across reports by others who have been equally pleased with such a set up. Four Anaconda Alphas for my 3 amps and for a Hydra 8, together with one Anaconda Vx for my APL, plus the Hydra 8 itself will all weigh-in in the neighborhood of $12,000 at the retail level. And that's without taking the big advantage of my multiple dedicated lines. I'm just doing my homework (something my students shun) into the different possibilities before I can make such a commitment. John
Tvad, Thanks for the links. From my first quick read, the UPC-200 is more promising than the Ultimate High Current Outlet. However, the PS comparison tool does not yet list the UPC-200. So, I was not able to get a quick comparison with the Hydra 4. I need to do some research.
Also, I'm waiting for Grant from Shunyata to respond to my email regarding my questions about the nature of filtration and duplex/outlet isolation within the different Hydra units. Since I have multiple dedicated lines, I would like to isolated the high-current amps from the low-current APL. And, if its is not too costly to isolate the right channel from the left to reduce cross-channel talk and contamination. John
Tvad, You are not preaching to the wrong crowd! Note how many times I explicitly stated or implied in my posts that I am looking for an economic solution. If I was not interested in your suggested value-per-dollar alternatives I would not have wasted my time checking your links and reading the reviews (where available) for those alternatives. In my response to your previous post, I stated that I found the UPC-200 to be more interesting to me than the Ultimate Outlet precisely for the reason you point out in your last post. Namely, the two zones in the UPC-200 are isolated, which means that I could achieve my major goals with two UPC units on two dedicated AC lines. One to isolate the right channel from the left one for my Jadis mono amps. And on the other UPC unit, I could isolate the high-current Krell from the low-current APL. Based on Grant's comments about Hydra 2 and Mr. Perry's observations, it appears that Hydra 2 is more optimal for amps than the Hydra 4. At this point, it appears to me that Hydra 2 will not be able to isolate my APL from my Krell. Consequenty, I will need 3 or 4 Hydras to accomplish my major goals. And for each additional power conditioner, there is another power cord. Grant's clarification about the level of isolation and filtration in the Hydra units, will help determine the number of Hydras I will need. I also need to know more about UPC's balun type filter. The UPC-200 is new and I was unaware of its existence until you brought it to my attention. I am grateful to you for that. At this stage, the Hydras and the UPC-200 are the frontrunners for my power conditioners.
As with the power conditioners, I do not have a set price point in mind for the power cords. However, there is a bigger picture to my upgrade journey. Namely, I will need to upgrade the power cords for the three amps as well. Since I will not have a preamp in my sytem, logic dictates that I put the best PC on the APL. Based on the characterists of PCs described in this thread as well as several others, I would place Virtual Dynamics Night 2 (which I heard), Elrod EPS sig 2, and the Xindak gold as the front runners on my short list to audition first on the APL unit. The remainder of the short list consists of Wolf Carbon Source, Mini Khan Plus, Foundation Research, Shunyata, and VH AirSine. In view of the fact that I will need a total of 6 or 7 power cords, all the value-per-dollar alternatives are still viable candidates for an economic solution. John
I am using both the Ps audio uo high current version and the hydra2 in my system. I am running the power amplifier (ML331) through the Hydra2 and the cd-player-preamp ML 39 through the UO. Accoring to my experiences, the UO is shifting upward the soundprint of the system. The combination Ps audio Lab cable (original) and the UO proved to be the right combination to return to a more equally balanced soundprint ( or how I was accustomed to).
First, to answer Sean's question about wiring and voltage drop in the Hydras. The Hydra 8's outlets are all wired individually and run from each outlet to the internal chassis that has the Copper buss system and FeSi 1002 compounds within, so with the 8, the point is moot.
The Hydra models 4 and 6 duplex outlets are connected consecutively with 2" silver/rhodium plated buss straps--as pictured on our web-site. The measured Voltage drop across a 2" 9 gauge silver plated buss strap is so small that it is irrelevant to operation and could not possibly create a voltage sag that would harm or otherwise alter the performance of electronics that are connected. There will always be a common point at which current converges no matter the wiring or buss arrangement, so pointing to this as evidence of inexpensive construction quality is far off the mark. Running wiring from the individual outlets in the 4 and 6 would actually be *less expensive* than designing and manufacturing the silver/rhodium buss straps. Caelin made that design choice to improve the units performance, not to cheapen manufacturing. We did have measurements posted in our technology section that show the outlet-outlet isolation in the 8 but Caelin wanted to update that and re-post with more complete test results. Caelin will be re-posting a recently completed set of measurements representing the circuit isolation of all the Hydras. In the mean-time, the fluke 43 power analysis results can be seen via our SoundStage Hydra 8 review-link:http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/shunyata_hydra_8.htm
To answer the other questions regarding Hydras, the most relevant difference between the units performance in Audio/studio applications is not the number of filter elements used, necessarily, but the difference in the units buss architecture. The Model 8 uses all copper wiring and a massive (7lbs) Copper buss, milled from solid ingots of CDA 101 copper. It also has the patented compounds surrounding the buss structure. The Hydras 6 and 4 are more minimalist in design (purposefully) and use the more direct-connection-silver buss (minimal contact impedance, minimalist AC path) construction. These differences mean that the Hydra 8 will have a more robust tonal presentation, it will sound more rich, full-bodied, but slightly slower(subjectively speaking) than the more immediate, forward presentation of the 6 and 4 models. The Hydra 2 splits the difference tonally because it has no buss and only has the 9 gauge copper wiring running from IEC to outlet. The Hydra 8 is definitely our reference, and that is the product I generally recommend when working with studios, but the smaller units might actually be preferred in predominantly tube or all analog systems--it depends on one's preference. Sony Music New York preferred the models 6 and 4 because to they seemed more "Transparent" with mastering equipment, while other studios such as Astoria and Rick Rubin preferred the 8 and the 2's because they had more weight and richness...
When working with 2-3 dedicated lines, it is best to try model 2's for amps on separate lines whenever possible, and then choose the Hydra to evaluate that best suits the number of components that make up the rest of the system. If cost is no object, then an 8 is our reference, but the 4 and 6 might be worth trying if you only have 2-3 other components.
Samuel aka Grant: Thanks for taking the time to respond and provide more info. I was beginning to wonder if this was going to be like the last thread where i asked questions of a manufacturer and they never responded. They did respond to others within that thread both before and after those questions / comments, but they somehow seemed to overlook what i threw their way. Wonder how that happened ??? : )
As to my previous comments, i based them on the info and pictures available on your website. As such, you might want to update your website and check the wording used. While you state that the Hydra 8 is parallel wired rather than daisy-chained, where would the use of copper buss bars come into play then? The info on your website makes a big deal of how heavy the buss bars are that are used in the Hydra 8 and even shows them, but doesn't actually show the internal construction of the unit. As such, one is lead to believe that these units are all based on the same basic design / operating parameters with the only variables being the amount of outlets available. Evidently, such is not the case. This is confusing to say the least.
"The measured Voltage drop across a 2" 9 gauge silver plated buss strap is so small that it is irrelevant to operation and could not possibly create a voltage sag that would harm or otherwise alter the performance of electronics that are connected. There will always be a common point at which current converges no matter the wiring or buss arrangement"
I never said that voltage sag would result because the Hydra's used buss bars. What i did say is that there was more potential for sag or "modulation of the voltage" for the outlets later in the line because of this type of lay-out / wiring scheme.
If a device is plugged into the first outlet that pulls gobs of current on a dynamic basis, all of the outlets wired behind that first outlet will demonstrate at least a small amount of ripple. There is the potential for greater sag as the current draw increases. That's because the current will go where it is being drawn first and then whatever is left will "meander" downstream accordingly. If there is enough pull "upstream" at the first outlet, there's not as much current left to wander "downstream" to the other outlets. That lack of current is what causes voltage sag.
If you had multiple rivers ( individual outlets ) with their own feedpoints ( parallel branch wiring ) to the ocean ( wall outlet ), the potential for any starvation downstream is reduced. That is, so long as the ocean ( wall outlet and power cord ) could provide enough flow. That's because each parallel branch doesn't see what the other branches ( outlets ) are pulling whereas with the daisy chain arrangement, one river ( outlet ) feeds into the next in a series arrangement. If the first river ( outlet ) restricts the flow, all of the other rivers ( outlets ) feel the consequences.
Based on the info that you provided in this thread, this type of situation could only apply to the units that are wired in "daisy chain" fashion i.e. the 4's & 6's. As mentioned elsewhere in this post, the use of buss bars within the 8's still leaves me a bit confused though.
As to the link that you provided ( THANK YOU for making it simple for all of us to follow along ), i never, not once said that the Hydra's couldn't provide noise reduction. Anyone that has ever experimented with parallel noise suppression circuity would know better than to make such a claim. What i did question was the amount of isolaton as referenced over a specified bandwidth that the Hydra's provided from outlet to outlet. The test results that you linked to here didn't cover anything like that.
For sake of reference, my main concern is what happens when a component plugged into the Hydra generates AC noise / interference / RFI and tries to pump that back into the AC system??? Not only would such a test tell us how well each component is isolated from the other within the confines of the Hydra itself, it would also tell us the level of noise suppression that the unit is capable of providing for the incoming AC too. I hope that i'm clear enough in my explanation as to the type of info that i'm looking for.
Thanks again for the timely response and looking forward to any further info you would like to provide. Sean >
Puremusic- a cost effective way to isolate your 3910 is the ISO-21 from ESP. For "value-per-dollar" power cords check out the Supra LoRad.
I agree with Sean, that there doesn't appear to be much in the way of outlet to outlet or AC line isolation on the Hydras.
A former Hydra user with a full digital system recently upgraded to the new Audience AdaptResponse power conditioner which has 12 full isolated outlets, and says it's a hugh improvement.
Kana813: Parallel line filters, when properly designed, can offer a pretty amazing amount of noise suppression / absorption. As such, i'm not discounting that they can provide a measurable amount of crosstalk rejection. Having said that, i'm just not sure of the quantity or consistency across the frequency range that this design can achieve. That's why i'm looking forward to seeing some real spec's from Shunyata. Sean >
If you've got an open outlet with enough room to plug in a "wall wart" sized device, simply pick up an Audioprism Quiet Line and do that. If you have an open outlet but don't have the space for the "wall wart" sized device, try using an Enacomm AC line filter. This is a two pronged power plug with a very short length of power cord wired inside of a small metal can that houses a parallel line filter. I've not compared the efficiency / absorption ratios of these two devices, but i do know that they definitely lower the noise floor of the AC branch that they are plugged into. I suggested the Audioprism first over the Enacomm as they are both easier to find and far less costly. Sean >
I will buy both and see what works best. I am also checking with my electrician for an isolation transformer setup like the one you mentioned in another important post.
Yada: Your electrician is probably going to be clueless in this regards. It will be up to you and the amount of research that you do on the subject as to who well your electrical system works. Most electricians only understand voltage & current demands, suitable gauges of wire, safety factors / legalities and getting the circuit from point A to point B. Unless you are lucky enough to have an electrician that is both an avid audiophile and reader of forums like these, you'll need to do your own looking, checking and designing. As such, look at some of the pic's and info available in the archives here and start taking notes. Sean >
Using David Elrod's Sig 2 on my APL 3910 and the sound is amazing. ALso have dedicated 20 amp lines and Elrod Statement from wall to BPT 3.5+ signature power conditioner and Sig 3 feeding a McCormack DNA-500 amp.
Fplanner2000: I had my APL plugged into a BPT3.5 also. Recently plugged it into the wall and it improved. I talked to Alex about it and He said that his power supply already converts to balanced power and better not to plug it into the BPT. Just got an Isoclean and better still.
Thanks - I already tried that and mine sounds better through the BPT+. Is yours the 3.5+ or the 3.5? Also, the cord used from the wall to the BPT makes a HUGE difference, I have discovered. When I went from the Sig 3 to the Statement, all my components sounded even better.
Tried the Virtual Dynamic Nite I, and the music did not breathe as well as with the EG Mini Khan Plus. It sounded more shrill, and forced. The cord was also a bugger to work with--VERY stiff. I then tried the Ultra Khan Statement Revision II, and it's here to stay. The music was a bit more transparent and relaxed with it than with the Mini Khan. I am plugging into an Aural Thrills Power Box, which is unfortunately no longer made. It's a great little piece of equipment, which could generally be found for around $100 on auction. When I went into the wall with the same cords, the end rankings & effect were identical, however. Regards, Howard
I can't specifically respond to how the APL mates with different brands however I can recount my experiences with a number of high end cords on my Audio Synthesis Transcend / Dax Discrete front end. I also use a Hydra 8. For quite a while, I used Audience Powerchord, enjoying its musicality but became curious about what differences more expensive cords could make. I started by trying an original shunyata python on the dac which really suited the dac, giving great dynamics with a low noise floor and an almost euphonic palpability. Liking what I heard, I assumed the anaconda vx would be even better and bought 2; although it gave greater transparency, i felt it sounded as if the dynamics had become dampened. Prior to buying these, a dealer had recommended the Electraglide Ultra Khan Statements over the anacondas, however I guess I was in a shunyata frame of mine at the time. Given my experiences, I bought a UKS2 off audiogon and really loved what it did, bringing a much tighter dynamic and more natural sound to the system. Figuring I was now on a home run, I ordered a complete system loom of the new epiphany. My system took a great step forwards with these fully run-in and I was very happy; my wife however had other ideas about me turning our living room into a "nuclear plant", hating the way they looked and in the interests of domestic harmony I put them up for sale on audiogon. At the time, I was playing around with Wolff Empress interconnects and speaker cables (which is excellent btw) and Mike Wolff lent me a couple of his old style source power cords. Slotting these in on the front end, gave me a more palpable midrange with greater focus - hey things were starting to get interesting! My 20amp epiphany feeding the hydra was the next to sell and I had to slot in my old audience as an inbetweener - wow, the sound disintegrated by @30%, becoming smaller and much more grainy. It's often been said the greatest test of a component is what you hear / feel when you take it out. Well, this message had been firmly rammed home and given that I'd sold all of the epiphanies, the wife took pity on me and I was allowed to buy a new epiphany X to feed the hydra. From memory, this is bigger, more extended and clearer presentation than the ordinary epiphany - SOS have confirmed that it's several notches ahead. As for the rest of my system, well I now have Wolff's latest silver ribbon power cords feeding all the remaining electronics. They're much tighter and more transparent than his earlier offerings, it's almost as if the camera lens has been focused more clearly. So what are the lessons of my journey, well firstly power cords make a significant contribution and it appears the upscale models have something extra to offer. It's also a somewhat iterative process, in that certain cords mate better with specific pieces of equipment. In fact what worked on the dac, didn't necessarily sing on the transport, so YMMV. Finally, living in London on the otherside of the pond, I don't have easy access to try many usa products and Audiogon has proven to be an invaluable asset in both gathering information and allowing the purchase and resale of equipment. So many thanks to those who bring audiogon to us and the contributors who make it what it is!
For grins, I just tried an Epiphany on my APL-3910 in place of my Elrod Sig 2 - I was astonished at the difference. Much better dynamics and more detail as well as slightly better imaging. It was almost as though a "veil" had been lifted. Sound seems a little more forward, as opposed to laid back with the Sig2, but that's not a bad thing.
Was the cord you tried an Epiphany or the Epiphany X?
Fplanner2000,
In an earlier post you wrote that the Elrod Statement made a huge difference between the wall and your AC conditioner. Are you still happy with the Statement there? Have you compared the Statement with the Epiphany (or X) between the wall and conditioner? If so, what are the sonic differences?
John- Mine is also an Epiphany, not X. I am still happy with the Statements. Been talking with a West Coast dealer who suggested trying an Epiphany X between wall and conditioner. IF I ever become disenchanted with the Statements, I may try that. My concern is that by doing so, the system may become too "bright" - having 2 Epiphanys in the same chain. My speakers are pretty efficient (95 db)and for now, this balance of Statements from wall to conditioner to amp, with Epiphanys on the tuner and Denon 3910 sounds "just right". I really like the weight and musicality provided by the Statements in combination with the extended highs, slightly higher resolution and broader, more open soundstage of the Epiphanys on the front end, at least in my system. Hope this helps.
Other audiophiles have claimed that the Statement makes a huge difference from wall to conditioner, especially in a large room (which I have). So, its on my priority list. If you should have an opportunity to audition the Epiphany X, I would appreciate your observations. I am very curious to know how it differs from the Epiphany.
i replaced the epiphany feeding my hydra 8 with the 'x' version and the latter was bigger, more open and showed greater frequency extension. that said, it's also rather expensive. i recently had the opportunity to compare with a 20amp wolff gain and the latter was less detailed but fuller sounding. the difference wasn't great and the choice would rather depend on which direction your system needs to be nudged in
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