If you want to do a sub get a Rel, Their beautiful matches. Also don't let anyone tell you that you can't mate a ML with a sub, what do you think they use right now for bass? Its a panel with a (SUB)woofer in the same cabinet |
I wanted a little more deep bass than the Aerius provides, too. While not a current model or as powerful as some larger subs, a Velodyne F1000 occasionally puts a smile on my face at it fills in that some of that deeper bass the Aerius lack. |
I have Aerius I, the "sub" tbone refers too rolls off at 40hz and is also DESIGNED to blend with the panel. Not exactly what I would call a sub by any means. Any way I have not been able to match a sub well with mine but I have not tried anything much beyond the $750.00 mark. Maybe something of higher grade will keep up with them better but some times less is better. |
I'm not sure how this will work since your speaker already has a "sub", of sorts. I'm going to go with a REL (Strata or Storm, maybe two) with my full range CLS's and still think it will be a tough match (i.e will the REL keep up with the speed of the CLS's, will the additional low frequency come at the expense of transparency ((I already know that the answer to this is "yes", but don't know how much I'll lose)). I'm not sure how a sub will match both your esl panel AND your dynamic woofer. Seems like there's going to a lot going on there. You have a very small panel as is (and there is a direct correlation between panel size and sound with Logans) so I wonder what the net effect will be. I've heard great things about REL -- the only way to go with esl's -- but you may be better off with a bigger Logan. REL's don't come cheap. Why not upgrade to a bigger panel and bigger woofer? SL3 or Ascent? Your net cost might be about the same with better results. |
Try Velodyne HGS-10. Crossover @ 8oHz. Keep the sub volume down. Will be very smooth. |
i would try a pair of vmps' subs - as large as yer room will take, & be sure ya get all the awailable options. use marchand's deluxe version of their xm-9 crossover; its flexibility in plugging in different x-over points, 24db/octave slopes, separate wolume pots for low pass, hi-pass, *and* a volume pot for the x-over frequency, make this an excellent tool for matching to different speakers. marchand also sells this x-over w/a 48db/octave slope, if yer really worried about matching-up to electrostatics. i got the whole package - 2 new largeer subs, a new x-over, & a pair of adcom gfa-555's, & the whole ting cost me only ~$2200... ewe can save by using a pair of their original or smaller subs, & getting one amp, which should really be all ya need, considering that these subs are pretty efficient, and operate at 4 ohms... less distortion, better electronics, & more flexible than all but the most expensive powered subs, & those only equal, not surpass the vmps, imho... doug |
Hey, Doug. I just happen to have an old Adcom GFA555 laying around. What do the VMP's go for on the used market? Might be fun to try them. Also, since subs are prtty much "non directional" is there any problem placing a single sub between my speakers (9 feet apart-center of panels)? |
hi jim, vmps are rarely found on the used market, but they're really inexpensive used - partly, in the case of the larger sub, that at 140lbs & >8cu/ft, it's expensive to ship, i'm sure. there was one on ebay recently that got no bids at a starting price of $275, i tink. ya mite be able to find it in the completed auctions page if ya search vmps on ebay. but, check some dealers for pricing - compared to the powered subs on the market, these are a great deal even bought brand-gnu, considering shipping is included in the price! :>)also, i highly recommend getting all the awailable upgrades i am a firm believer in using a pair, set-up in proper stereo configuration on the outside of the monitors, but, if ya gotta do yust one, then in the middle is the best place, but it would be preferable in the near-field - i.e.: as a coffee-table. (ackshully, i believe that near-field placement would be best for a pair, too - like end-tables, but my current set-up precludes wires running across the middle of my room.) make sure ya cross 'em over wery low, w/a slope of at least 24db/octave especially if yer only gonna run one sub. that adcom, which puts out 325w into 4 ohms, would do fine w/a pair of subs, but i wanted to get the amps closer to the subs, so i run a pair bridged. at ~$400 used, these make great sub amps! ;~) good luck, doug ps - check out vmps' www - brian cheney, the owner, has lotsa inneresting stuff to say about his view of speaker design & sub design. |
Thank you, Doug. Happy Holidays. |
hi jim, last nite, i listened (again!) to nusrat fateh ali khan & michael brook - "night song" this cd has *amazing* low-frequency info, & believe me, bass frequencies *can* be directional! :>) if ya have the room, definitely try to go for a pair of subs. there are many other recordings i have that have directional bass, as well. holly hippodaze, doug |
Yeah, I think you're right about that Doug. I picked up the same pov from vmps' site. I'm just grappling with placement issues -- got to get the tape measure out. My speakers are on a 10x13 rug on an otherwise tiled floor. Since vmps says you can use their subs as stands for Quads and Soundlabs maybe I can place them in front of my CLS's (which are on Arcici stands), although placement outside the speakers would probably be best. Thanks for the tip on these -- I knew nothing about the company before. Their point regarding the quality of amp/crossover used in most subs makes a lot of sense. Now I'm thinking about how the combination of the ss sub amp will sound with my tube amp???? Even though the REL and Vanderstein subs are powered, they receive imput from the main power amp and respond in kind. I'm not sure about the technical aspects, but something about retaining the characteristics of the main amp throughout the frequecy range. Now what I'd REALLY like to get my hands on is a pair of the Kinergentics subs (SWB 800???). These were tall, narrow enclosures with 8 drivers in each cabinet designed specifically for CLS's... kind of a "mini" Statement set up. This combination has zero WAF though. |
jim, the kinergetics subs - sw8000's i tink were the name of their top-model, would be excellent, but even if ya find a pair used, they're still expensive. as i recall, they had five 10" drivers per side. melos recommended them to me as a good mate for the newform research speakers i'm considering, but when i reminded them that i had my pair of vmps', they said i should be all right as-is,... ;~) i woodn't be worried about using a solid-state amp w/subs when using tubes on top - wood prolly ackshully be a good thing, considering ya want the subs to be as fast as possible to keep up w/the 'stats. i tink it inneresting yure using the cls - i strongly considered getting a pair, but i was turned-off when even m-l told me 93 db was the max i'd get outta them, even if crossed-over to subs at 100hz, which is ackshully higher than i'd like to go. for most music, i'd be ok w/93 db max, but every now-n-again, i like raucous music! :>) that's why i'm considering newform research electrostats - they're more efficient, go louder, and seem to be less sensitive to room-placement than the cls' - they're mono-poles, no sound from the back of 'em. but waf is *really* a problem w/these - i dunno if even *i* will be able to put up w/the way they look! :>) i suggest ewe czech out their www, as well as the reviews (on the r645) on audioreview. more than most of the reviews there, it's impressive what the users ancillary equipment is, & other speakers considered. one guy is using the $17k c-j art preamp, so i don't tink bargain-price was the attraction! these things retail for ~$2250, which ain't bad if they really live up to their claims. |
Doug, no matter what, CLS's on their own will never be raucus. That's the part-time problem. The 80/20 rule is coming into play. I'm mostly sooooo happy with these speakers. They do the transparent detail thang so well. But some stuff I listen to isn't quite there. In my current listening environment (read: big, asymetrical living room) I could actually use a pair of subs as end tables. The rug that I had made will cover the speaker cables (well, if I get Alpha Goertz for the subs) nicely. You are right, the SW800's had five drivers per side. Hmmmmm, what do do? I'll just chill and listen to the music.... went from Muddy Waters to Mississippi Fred McDowell to John Lee Hooker to the Flamin Groovies to Tom Waits. Now to pick up the osso bucco. Ciao, Doug. And Merry Christmas. |
jim, w/eclectic musical tastes, ya need one-size-fits-all speakers! :>) i've heard the cls' and absolutely love what they do well, but, as ya say, some of the stuff yust ain't there, on some music. i thought that subs wood be the cure, but according to m-l, which i corresponded w/about it - it's only a partial cure - yust not enuff dynamics. they suggested the requests, but i'm really not too keen on the other m-l stuff. perhaps the gnu prodigy wood work, but a bit outta my budget! thus, the investigation of the newforms. w/a 30-day in-home trial, i'd only be out shipping if they're not *it*...meantime, the meret re's are quite nice. le'see, today was some buena-vista social club, king sonny ade, neil young unplugged, keith jarrett/jan garbarek, lightnin' hopkins/sonny terry, & some rasta-style christmas music, as well as a bit of jazz-blues x-mas stuff from the (relatively) local non-commercial excellent jazz/blues/latin/caribbean radio station i send money to... now, enjoy that *other* italian symphony on the way to get the osso-bucco! :>) holly hippodaze doug ps - i mite be mistaken, but i believe the sw800's are a smaller (3-driver?) less expensive wersion of the sw8000's... |
I am using SL3's with a Velodyne HGS-12(at 60 hz and a low volume). Sounds great, the only problem is the sub will set you back as much as the aerius' did. Good luck. |
