Chas
A friend told me that the 38 is now for sale on musicdirect.com. Don't know them as a retailer, but they are showing both the amp and CD player. They also show my N100 combo. It is roughly 35 to 40% higher than what I paid in Japan. |
Boy, I would love to hear it...hear it all, actually! and then buy what I loved most, and never look back. (hopefully)
The small Leben is only 15 watts, which means very efficient speakers and usually a smaller scale system. By the time people consider the bigger Leben integrated, they head for Shindo.
The Luxman is all relatively new here, as stated earlier, so maybe eventually I'll get to hear it.
Thanks again!
Chas |
Chashas1
I agree, and mentioned specifically above there is a price difference in the thousands. I have not actually seen the 38 SQ at retail. It is a very known model to the Japanese.
It appears not to be distributed here yet. PS: The founder of Leben worked on the 38 model so I would imagine that the sound profile is very similar. |
Thanks for that, Bongo, but, all is not apples and apples.
If you're throwing the Luxman 590 into the mix, then you've left a big void of around $5k here between the Leben 600 and it. If you were only comparing the 505 or the Luxman 38SQ, which at around $6k would be the one to merit a comparison, that would maybe be a better comparison. After all, the thread started with the 505.
Why does no one hardly mention the 38sq, and why does Luxman have to have so many confusing model #'s? Does Accuphase do that as well? |
After reading this chain, I decided to do a retail test as well.
I brought out four pieces of music: Paul Kelly, May 1992, Spoon's Ga Ga Ga, Booker T's Potato Head, and MGMT's debut album.
I used Luxman's CD player to standardize the input. I then heard the Luxman's 507 and 590s with the D-8 CD player, versus Leben 300 SX and 600, driving Devore Nines speakers in NYC last week.
Devore tends to sound more relaxed rather than forward, are musical forgiving, and somewhat efficient. They work well in small room setups.
Overall, I was very impressed by the level of detail by both brands and all the "musical" attributes you associate between the brands around a Japanese sound. Everything sounded acceptable to my ears--you could have long listening sessions with both. Also, it should be noted that there is a significant price difference between the integrated amps, so you have to factor that Luxman costs thousands more.
What sets apart the Luxman brand is its high slew rates. I can't think of a better product that produces the magical quality of sustain and slam to give the music real dynamic character. This is especially present in the AB amps like the 509. The Leben has a warmer tonality, more mid to high range, but really excelled with organic recordings like Booker T. This was constant for both the 300 and 600 models. The Luxmans were able to play all music extremely well, including the cheesy electronica of MGMT, with more presence, end to end. I loved the 590 for presence of sound stage and natural timbre.
I think the Leben sounded better from a headphone amp perspective. I brought a pair of Sony 7506s and found I was very immersed with the overall sound.
I have a Luxman N100 valve system in Japan (my son lives in Tokyo and I have business interests there) and the Leben seems a tad richer. With that said, I would rank Luxman 590 as the best sounding amp in the shootout. I view Leben as a better "starter" system if money is an issue, but Luxman is clearly in a class by itself. |
Curious how the 507u will turn out.... |
Oiy! but the price! that's quite a leap from the 505u...
I bet it's lovely... |
Please post a detailed report after your Luxman arrives! I have had my L-590A II for a week now and I not only am very pleased but pleasantly surprised. I say surprised because it far exceeds my expectations. My main goal from switching from my McIntosh MC402 and C46 was hopes of a better match with my speakers; I have heard my speakers at a show where they sounded better than I had at home, by quite a bit frankly. My thoughts of change was based on various setups I know the founder used with them. The clarity/transparancy of this amp is far greater than any others I have owned and the bass is far superior to what I had with the Mac gear, in fact both the bass and transparency are simply incredible, I cannot over state either enough. One could easily confuse the two setups as having the reverse in wattage. There a songs even played via my tuner where I simply amazed, including hearing details I'd never knew existed. The Mac gear is laid back and I have accused some past speakers of being recessed in the midrange, where I now think it had more to do with the Mac gear. (I sure would like to have some past speakers back to hear with this amp.) I don't like sounding so critical of the Mac and that isn't my intent, it is just that the Luxman is that much better. (I usually like to say here, IMO, but man, there is no denying that the Luxman is better. Now there "may" be some things that some would prefer with the Mac gear, but that doesn't negate the obvious.) Great dynamics with the Luxman and I was hoping to get more depth using Class A, think 3D, which it achieves. The L-590A II is a great piece indeed. I will say that it is very revealing and if one has speakers on the bright side, it'll show it and I suspect it could be too much for you. Pair it well and you will be rewarded. Brian |
Thanks Brian, I am still waiting for the Feb issue.
Mark |
Jim, you are so lucky to get to hear all those different models....I feel like I'm a backwoods yokel compared to that.
I know your yammies are sensitive, from what I've been told they need something that will control the bass better than a Leben. I think it's good you've moved on.
Have fun! Lucky.... |
Chashas1 Thanks for that thread. I am aware that my NS1000x's are monitors. They (or the 1000M, described by Bwcanuck in your post, the little sister of the 1000x, with lesser bass, lighter box, etc.) were at one time government broadcast studio standard monitors in some European countries.
Today I spent some time listening to a new Luxman 509u. It is very detailed, clean, and balanced, but maybe lacks the warmth and silkiness of the old Luxmans. I would need some side-by-side listening to confirm that. I was using it to compare some B&Ws (my current rear speakers), and found a very interesting tweak for the 805N that I'd like to discuss once I find an appropriate board.
I'll try to get to other new Luxmans tomorrow and next week. I found a mega-store that has a decent stereo dept with nice listening rooms in its basement. They had a Leben in there, too, but I've kind of lost interest in that.
Actually, the Yammies are sensitive, it doesn't take much to drive them at all, and they sound brilliantly clear even at extremely low volume. |
|
Chashas1 - which recent issue of Stereophile (and what page) mentions the 505u?
Thanks,
Mark
|
Jim, I think this is the one...
01-10-10: Bwcanuck
My experience has been that the recording medium and media have been the weakest link in my system. I prefer higher resolution speakers but this places massive limitations on what I can play to get a truly live detailed sound without hearing background noise or errors in mixing. I've heard the Monitor 30 beside a pair of NS-1000M and they shared an almost identical response in that room. The M30 had a color or warmth, a wood note and was quite forgiving of material and gear even though it had more treble, but was still more detailed than many other speakers that I remember. I enjoyed them. The NS-1000M was incredibly neutral from what I could tell, dynamic, let me hear far too deep into what was playing in the audition, to the point where what I was hearing was almost programmed sounding. Things like distant sounding strings with a close sounding vocal that doesn't fit stood out. When I ponder about recordings maybe they should use speakers like those to know what they are doing to a recording, I think most listeners want to hear more music, less recording process.
Bwcanuck (Answers)
it was the fifth post under a thread for avalon, harbeth, etc...
I think what I was trying to show you at the time was that your speakers are monitors, hence very revealing, sometimes too much so, yet also requiring a good matchup in electronics. I doubt the lil Leben would have enough juice for your speakers.
In the latest issue of Stereophile, John Marks again goes crazy over the new Luxman 505u. He's pairing it with the Harbeth 7-3's...if you could find one of those over there who knows? |
Chashas1 I can't find this thread for the life of me, although I can't ever find my socks or the pencil that I'm holding, either. Could you please give me some more details as to where to find it?
"There's a thread under Speakers now that might interest you, someone compares the Harbeth 30's with your speakers." |
I doubt you will be disappointed. Please post a detailed report after your Luxman arrives! |
No, I was not able too unfortunately. |
I just read some reports. Those are certainly interesting-looking speakers. Doubtful that I'll see them over here soon. Were you able to somehow listen to the Luxman you ordered with your speakers before you ordered it?
As a happy owner of simple but classic older Luxmans, I am eager to start listening to new Luxmans. No time until February. |
Jim,
I had a McIntosh MC402 and C46, which will now be replaced with the L590a II; I have Ridge Street Audio Sason speakers.
I came about the Luxman in researching class A amps as I am wanting to find a better pairing with my speakers. Honestly I wasn't aware of the Luxman gear until somewhat recently and I really liked what I was learning.
Brian |
Brianmgrarcom Would you mind letting me know a bit about your set-up and how you came to choose your Luxman? |
Chashas1 Thanks for thinking of my search! There is also an older thread on pf with a different title of almost the same meaning that gave me loads of insight.
I've never heard them on stands, so I don't know what the difference is like. I've discussed stands with several people and tried to find some original ones before, but haven't yet. I almost bought a pair of wooden stands for giant mortar/pestles for grain grinding, which were just the right height and size, but people convinced me the wood might not be good sounding, so at risk of having even more junk around with nowhere to store it, i didn't buy those in the end. Anyways, I really don't think they need stands in the room they are in.
My space is limited, and because it's a tatami room we sit on the floor when seriously listening, so our ears are at just about the right height for them. The sound is so wonderful already I really wonder why I am looking for an even better amp. |
Jim, I started reading a thread on pf that would be perfect for you, and then saw that you were already on it!
So how do you think sitting on the floor affects the overall sound? Any different than if they were on stands?
Too bad about the shishamo... Our's here are frozen, sob, so it doesn't matter for us... |
Thanks Chasas1 and Brianmgrarcom. My speakers weigh 42 Kg each and are rather bulky, so lugging them over to the stereo shop aint easy at all.
As far as buying cheap so I can resell if I don't like it at home, so far I've been lucky with doing that. I've purchased all my components that I have so far that way, and one that I am less impressed with. I would have bought the CS300X for a home trial, too if it was available for me and I liked it more, mainly because it is so highly recommended by experienced people like you guys.
As for prices, it goes both ways. Imported stuff is pricey, even though the current exchange rate should dictate otherwise. A new Ah! Njoe Tjoeb here costs about double what it costs in the US, for example.
Part of the reason you guys are paying such hefty prices over there right now is the exchange rate, but new stuff over here isn't cheap at all.
Used Japanese stuff can be very reasonable, mainly because it is often in excellent condition. Most of my components are in minty brand new condition, even my 25-yr-old speakers.
I'll go read some of that Harbeth vs NS1000x thread, which will be good for my learning since I just now heard them with three amps, including one like my own and my own CD player, with my own music.
One thing I am trying to learn is better audio-related vocabulary to describe what we hear. It reminds me a lot of wine tasting.
As for taking a break, point well-taken. Stressed-out with too much work over here. I hope it doesn't show too much in my posts. As for Shishamo, I love those, too, but the season is past already, at least for the local catch. There are always wonderful, super-fresh, super-high quality fish of many other sorts here all year at very reasonable prices relative to other foods, though. |
Mushi mushi, Jim! oh no, you didn't make a mistake, you were only going on what you heard -at the time. That's not always an easy task. Great prices over there, I'd say.
I didn't realize when mentioning other options that you were looking solely for used, although, all the newer Luxman is much cheaper over there than here, as you can tell from the earlier part of this thread.
One thing I've think you've learned, with your specific tastes you really should get whatever amp to your home to use with your speakers, unless you take the speakers out of the house!
There's a thread under Speakers now that might interest you, someone compares the Harbeth 30's with your speakers.
Well, keep at it. Take a break and go eat some shishamo for me, lots of it.
Take care
Chas |
I wonder how else can I choose the best amp when I have no chance to listen on my own equipment? Take it with you. While not your room, at least it is your speakers. Not always easy, but it is an option. Or, buy low enough to resell if you don't like a piece. |
Hello Chashas1: Yeah, I'm new to this and I know now it's almost useless to test-listen on equipment other than your own. It was fun trying, though. It seemed to me that logically if one amp sounds better or worse than another through several different speaker systems then it is likely a similar relationship would hold with your own speakers, but this subject involves loads of factors of acoustics and taste as well as that simple "logic," which is becoming ever so clear to me, so that "logic" might not hold at all.
The shop has a policy of dibs: Interested parties put their name on equipment, and have rights to buy it, in order of when they put their name on it, within 3 days of being listed. If your name comes-up, then you can buy it, and if you return it within 30 days you get 90% of your money back.
I was not first on the list on either listening, and therefore I could not buy it and test it at home for 10% of the price, which I would certainly have done had I had that chance. I figure that price is like a night out in the pub here in Japan, but much more interesting and rewarding, and it is how I happen to have the Prima Luna at home now. I have one more week with that amp before I return it.
During my second listening someone bought the amp, and based on what we heard we didn't really feel bad about it.
If I made a mistake, then just to let you know I wasn't using bullets, but bombs to shoot myself in the foot with, because the Leben was in beautiful mint condition and had the Mullard tubes people seem to prefer, and many on here will probably go cry when they read this: it was only about USD $1000, it's normal price in Japan where local audiophiles apparently don't generally consider it so great.
That means that, had my number come-up and was able to buy it, even if I disliked it at home I could have sold it to someone overseas who really appreciates it and made a hefty profit.
My number didn't come-up, and I couldn't have owned this particular Leben even if I wanted to.
I wonder how else can I choose the best amp when I have no chance to listen on my own equipment? |
Lol! Jim, before you shoot yourself in the foot yet again, reread what you've written. And I say this not to defend the Leben at all- I don't own one, or Luxman, yet.
Twice now you have used the Leben with speakers you obviously don't like, the diatones and the thiels. And twice you blame it on the Leben. Before you write off the Leben, you need to use it with either the speakers you own or something very similiar. I don't know the sound of the diatones, but I've never liked thiels, at least the ones I've heard. You describe them to a t. And again I say your luxman is masking that. The top end on the Harbeth is extended yet sweet. And that's what the Leben showed.
Again, speculation only, but from what I've read, the newer Luxman gear is equal to or better than its predecessors. Even though it's not mentioned much, yet, maybe because of it's price point, 6k, the new version of the 38q is supposed to be stunning. It's odd that people are either buying the new lower priced entries or the top two expensive models. Obviously none of the new gear by Luxman is in your price area now. Is the Leben used?
Keep at it... |
I am not familiar with those setups, sorry. While I have followed the comments you allude to from others where Luxman was steered in aother, wrong, direction when under Alpine, it is clear that is no longer the case nor has been for some time, quite the contrary. I do have a L-590a II on order. |
Brianmgrarcom- Thanks, that's just where I'm headed next.
First on my listening list is a Luxman 570Z, which another Yamaha NS1000x owner uses and likes. Are you familiar with these speakers or amp?
I've been told (to no end) that Luxman lost it's edge when taken over by Alpine, and vintage shops don't generally carry much post-1984 Luxman stuff. They say new models have neither the depth nor the "silkiness" of the old tube amps. I'll try to judge that for myself soon.
Also, on a budget, I'm looking for something used or very good value. These Luxman integrateds you've listed are out of my range if new. I'm hoping to keep it under USD2000, and hopefully closer to USD1000.
The Prima Luna Prologue Two and Leben CS300X were both about USD 1000 in mint used condition, while the Luxman SQ38DF goes for about about USD 1600. My old Luxman 507 goes for only about USD 600.
Still, I do intend to give these new Luxmans and lots of others a listen, especially if I can find them in a shop with clear and neutral monitors like my Yammies to listen through.
As I'm sure you can gather from my posts, I'm pretty new to this "audiophilia world" and just trying to learn enough to choose an amp I'll be really happy with for a few years. |
Why not listen to some newer Luxman integrated's, whether it is the 505/509u or the pure class A units, the 550/590a II? |
Luxman vs Leben, Round 2: (Leben gets KO'd by a third tube amp)
This time I took wifey with me for a 3-hour listening session, to make use of her cleaner ears (she plays several musical instruments with subtlety and grace), practicality ,and frugality, while appeasing her at the same time so I can buy the equipment I like with less flackÂ….
My main object was to ascertain whether the sharp high notes I heard at first listening to the Leben CS300X were due to the amp or the speakers.
We set-up a Luxman 507 identical to my own and my own Ah! Njoe Tjoeb at the shop. There were again no speakers comparable to my Yamaha NS1000x available. Last time I listened to the Leben through Diatones, with negative results, so this time it was first through Theil CS2.3AW and then through Harbeth 30 monitors, both supposedly flat and neutral speakers.
Result:
First we listened to a wide-ranging collection of familiar stuff through the Luxman 507, to understand how it sounds through the two speaker sets compared to our Yammies. The Theils had much looser, sloppier bass than the Yammies, and more sharply piercing highs. The Harbeths were much softer all around than the Yammies or the Theils, with a lighter, more airy quality than either. (We weren't there to compare speakers, just to understand some characteristics of some amps, so it didn't matter that the Harbeths are bookshelves and the Theils are floorstanders.)
Then we played the same set of music through the Leben CS300x (Mullard EL84 tubes). The overall difference between the two was slight. I slightly preferred the tonal coloration of the Leben, while wifey thought the Leben "mushed sounds together" and sounded more "muffled" than the Luxman. We both agreed the Luxman 507 was a bit more clear, offering better resolution of instruments.
However, the same shrill high notes from the Leben plagued both of us through the Theils, just as they did to me through the Diatones last week, but not at all through the much softer Harbeths, and not at all from the Luxman through any of the speakers. Some violin notes and opera singer's voices were actually painful from the Leben through the Theils.
Overall we weren't deeply impressed with the the Leben.
It was obviously better overall to us than my Prima Luna Dialogue Two, pounding the final coffin nail into that amp for me, and making my mind up to return that amp to the shop next week.
While we were listening, someone bought the Leben via phone or internet. The sales guy then seemed to feel more free to introduce another amp to us, that he recommended based on what he was gathering from our likes and dislikes. He set-up an older Luxman tube amp, an SQ38FD.
THE LUXMAN SQ38FD TOTALLY BLEW THE LEBEN OUT OF THE WATER!
The difference between the Luxman SQ38FD and the Leben CS300X was like Quad ESL 989s versus Onkyo home theater stuff.
We were astonished by it. It was the first amp I've heard that was obviously more clear, had better staging and imaging, and was more natural sounding than my Luxman 507.
The SQ38FD was a wake-up call for us, showing us just how far from great the amps we had been listening are. This was definitely the best tube amp we've ever heard. However, we found every tube amp we listened to, including this wonderful old Luxman, were a bit bright and had some sharpness through most speakers. We are concerned that that sharpness might be even more shrill through the unforgiving Yammies.
In order of quality factors, we rated all the amps involved like this:
1. Luxman SQ38FD
2. Luxman 507
3. Leben CS300X
4. Prima Luna Prologue Two
We thought the Leben CS300X sounded great through the Harbeth 30 Monitors, but very different from the sound style we have grown accustomed to.
Worst case of all listening today was female vocal from the Leben through the Theils. Just awful.
Now we're not sure whether tube amps are for us, or if some SS amp will be best for our speakers and environment.
We are understanding better now what we are looking for, and it's something much closer to the overall sound qualities of the Luxman SQ38 FD, but without the occasional harsh high notes and without the tooby fuzziness we've heard in all tube amps so far.
I'll stop researching tubes at this point for now, and start looking at some SS amps before buying my next amp, which might be the Luxman SQ38FD. |
Jim, that sounds like a normal, healthy relationship...
I'd definitely try it if you can...I like to listen to as many combos as I can put together. Who knows, your vintage Luxman may win out...Write back, I'll be curious...
Thanks!
Chas |
Chasaa1: The Yamahas are rated at 90dB/W/m. They don't seem to need much power to drive them, and sound immaculate at very low volume. I've never seen a Shindo amp.
It looks like the Leben CS300X was let free at the shop today, so maybe I can return the Prima Luna Prologue Two in exchange and take the Leben home for a listen with my system, at risk of divorce. It costs a bit of cash every time I do this, and my listening tests drive the wifey nuts. |
Hi Jim, what about trying a Shindo amp? How efficient are the Yamahas? |
Chashas1 You could certainly be right about the Leben CS300X revealing weakness in the Diatones or elsewhere in the chain whereas the Luxman does not.
I've always been underwhelmed by Diatones, but remain totally in love with my Yamaha NS1000x's. In fact, what got me excited to listen to the Leben in the first place was an online review that said it matched perfectly with the NS100OX. Unfortunately, other potential buyers are currently on the shop's waiting list for this amp, so I couldn't take it home for a test with my own system/environment.
As much as I love the sound of my Luxman/Njoe Tjoeb/Yamaha NS1000x+B&W 805N system, I often feel I could improve on the amp, though I haven't found the "answer amp" yet. It's not the Prima Luna Prologue Two that I still have for now, and not several other amps I've tried, but it might still be the Leben.
Life continues to present mysteries and surprises... |
Hi Rosedanny,
nice comparo between the lfd and luxman.
considering they are priced about the same.
I'll seriously look into the luxman when i get the chance.
thank you for sharing the experience.
cheers.
Noli |
Hi Jim, yes, definitely give that Luxman some love.
I do disagree with this conclusion, though..
But I did compare the Leben against my own amp, and in that comparison the Leben's highs were slightly harsh and fatiguing, while the Luxman's were not. This tells me that the Leben would probably still be more harsh with my other components compared to the Luxman.
Jim, not necessarily so. You compared but with only one set up speakers. As I said, the Leben could be showing the truth of the speaker, the Luxman masking. Or it could be a simple matter of choice of cable.
Not that you sound like you want or need to get rid of the Luxman( heavens forbid) but if you were searching you might try the Leben in a different setup..
What I was trying to say about Mr Hyodo was that he's been around since the early days of hifi, not that his designs were lagging. From what I've heard, hardly. :)
Get that amp fixed!
Take care
Chas |
Hey Nolitan, I have heard both the LFD and the Luxman. The LFD was driving Harbeth speakers and sounded rich and detailed. I remember hearing the texture of the strings in an orchestral piece. I only listened to the LFD once, at a dealer's house, but that was my impression. What drove me to purchase the Luxman was the added features (you can see what I wanted in an amp at the top--I'm the one who initiated this thread). The LFD is pretty bare bones. Fortunately, I've found that the Luxman has a similar sound: rich, warm, yet detailed, but produces a bit more punch. I listen through Vandersteens, and the Luxman has shown me that when properly driven they can be fast and lively without losing their musicalty. Needless to say, I'm very happy with my L-505u |
Hi Chashas1: Unfortunately I haven't heard the Leben with my own speakers (Yamaha NS1000X + B&W 805N), just at the shop through icky Diatones.
But I did compare the Leben against my own amp, and in that comparison the Leben's highs were slightly harsh and fatiguing, while the Luxman's were not. This tells me that the Leben would probably still be more harsh with my other components compared to the Luxman.
Yes, my Yammies are bright, but crystal clear and superior to us to all other top-end speakers we've heard, except Quad ESL 989's, which are something entirely different. As you said, the warmth of my Luxman amp, but also the soft, absorbing room they are in, probably does a lot to balance the hard tendency of the Yammies. I imagine I might not like them as much in a hard room.
I doubt whether Mr. Hyodo's age restricts him in any way to design amps that are in keeping with older sound style. He is obviously quite competent, and able to follow (or lead, rather) modern sound trends. I agreed with the main guy in the shop that the Leben style sounded more like a Prima luna (but MUCH better!) in style than like an old-style tube amp.
I'm going back to the shop today to borrow another amp while I send my beloved Luxman 507 off to the amp hospital for a general check-up and possible minor surgery. Have to keep the old lady healthy! |
Jimbo, thanks for taking the time to write that. Your opinions are just as valid to me as from any on here.
I've only heard the Leben with the new Zu Essence. And while as good as it was, it may not have been the best matchup. I think the Zu's needed more power to control the bass. That being said, the mids were very lifelike, so voices were beginning to take on that elusive quality we look for. The highs were fine, not harsh, yet with the new Zu ribbon tweeter I can't really comment, I haven't heard a ribbon tweeter in years. It was nonfatiguing, however.
I hope to hear the Leben soon with a smaller, high efficient speaker. I'm not sure if I'd describe it as "modern" sounding, though. Mr Hyodo isn't exactly young!
And the Leben is far better known and popular in other countries than the States. They seem like great products, so I hope they catch on. It's also nice to see the rebirth of the Luxmans here. They had a tough time from their past distributors.
It sounds like you have an amp that matches your speakers well, at least for your tastes, so you should be very happy. I laughed, for I vaguely remember your speakers, and I always thought they were bright! So, one could speculate the Leben was only showing that to be true, and the Luxman works because it's warmer?
Thanks again
Chas |
Mark Toronto, Chashas1, and all: Luxman amps vs Leben, and Luxman CD players...
I just got back from the shop with some heavy stands for my new B&W 805s as second speakers, as well as some nice marble slabs to put between them and the tatami mat floor.
I talked with the main guy regarding his opinion about how Luxman C-5 and C-6 cd players are perceived in Japan. He thinks that they are not preferred by younger people, but are so by older listeners, because they have the "sweet and mellow" (his words) sound characteristic of Luxman (he calls it "The Luxman sound"), whereas younger Japanese people often prefer harsher, more powerful and trebly rendering.
I also asked him for some thoughts about my Primaluna Prologue Two, which has disappointed me because on the one hand it gets such rave reviews from so many online audiophile sites, yet to my ears and my wife's it is not better than my old, plain, not famous Luxman 507; in fact, it sounds more obviously distorted and even harsh sometimes to us. My trial period with it ends on Jan 20, and so I have to decide whether to give it up or not soon.
He explained that the Primaluna line, like the Leben, represent MODERN tube sound, and that they are excellent values for that type of amp. He thinks American ears are attuned to harsh and overly powerful amps and sound systems, often based on transistor amps that he considers basically "bad," so that when an American hears clear sounds through tubes like the Primaluna or Leben, we are enthralled by it in comparison. In reality, those amps are not necessarily better-sounding than many old tube amps and integrateds, but in comparison to the harsher stuff we're used to, they sound great. This made some sense to me in the context of all the old collectible stuff in his shop.
Chashas1, before you read my short blurb on it let me qualify my words by pointing out that I am no expert in this at all, just a novice and beginner in audio, and am only offering what my own ears told me. I am a bit older than many in here I imagine, and have heard lots over the years, though.
I had brought my Luxman 507 to the shop to compare to the Leben CS300X. I played a range of music on CDs from a LINN Magik-CD, output through some Diatone speakers, only because there were no others even close in type to my Yammies that day. The shop has a super-fast turnover rate.
The CDs I had included (of course) Miles's "Simply Blue," some drum-and-bass-loaded Brazilllian Samba, a string quartet by Wagner, Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture (complete with explosions on the crescendo!), Ella Fitzgerald with Louis Armstrong, Sade, Jimi Hendrix, Arethra Franklin, Maria Callas, Ravi Shankar, and some great whiney, nasal, banging-and-clanging Chinese Opera.
I played about 1 minute of one item, then switched amps and listend to the same sequence, then went to the next item.
The Leben was definitely even more clear and detailed than the already clear Luxman. On the faster stuff like Aretha, Jimi, and the Brazillians, the Leben was "punchier" and "more energetic." (I am sorry that I don't know standard vocal to describe these things, and hope you can grasp what I mean to convey). Over the range from mid-bass through upper-midrange, the Leben gave a somewhat wider staging presentation with subtly more clearly-defined imagined. Unfortunately, and I was sorely disappointed by this, the high-end was too strong and even harsh across the board on almost all these recordings. I felt listening fatigue beginning very soon, and was in each case relieved to return to my Luxman sound.
Mind you, all of these descriptive terms look exaggerated, as the differences were overall subtle.
The Leben has a bass tone control, but none for the high treble. If it had, and if I were able to reduce the subtly harsh effect, I would probably have taken it home, because other than the high end it sounded so good.
I am suspect a part of this judgment might be from being habituated to the familiar Luxman in my home, and also that I have some ear damage left over from wilder days that rings uncomfortably when high pitches are harsh at all. However, I can easily imagine that for many Americans used to listening to harder, harsher systems, as the shop guy described, the Leben would sound like comforting silk.
I would be very interested in hearing about your own listening experience with the little Leben gem, if you would be so kind.
Jimbo |
Many thanks for the update Jimbo!
Congratulations on setting-up the 805s - enjoy!
Regards,
Mark |
Mark Toronto, Chashas1, and all: Luxman amps vs Leben, and Luxman CD players...
I just got back from the shop with some heavy stands for my new B&W 805s as second speakers, as well as some nice marble slabs to put between them and the tatami mat floor.
I talked with the main guy regarding his opinion about how Luxman C-5 and C-6 cd players are perceived in Japan. He thinks that they are not preferred by younger people, but are so by older listeners, because they have the "sweet and mellow" (his words) sound characteristic of Luxman (he calls it "The Luxman sound"), whereas younger Japanese people often prefer harsher, more powerful and trebly rendering.
I also asked him for some thoughts about my Primaluna Prologue Two, which has disappointed me because on the one hand it gets such rave reviews from so many online audiophile sites, yet to my ears and my wife's it is not better than my old, plain, not famous Luxman 507; in fact, it sounds more obviously distorted and even harsh sometimes to us. My trial period with it ends on Jan 20, and so I have to decide whether to give it up or not soon.
He explained that the Primaluna line, like the Leben, represent MODERN tube sound, and that they are excellent values for that type of amp. He thinks American ears are attuned to harsh and overly powerful amps and sound systems, often based on transistor amps that he considers basically "bad," so that when an American hears clear sounds through tubes like the Primaluna or Leben, we are enthralled by it in comparison. In reality, those amps are not necessarily better-sounding than many old tube amps and integrateds, but in comparison to the harsher stuff we're used to, they sound great. This made some sense to me in the context of all the old collectible stuff in his shop.
Chashas1, before you read my short blurb on it let me qualify my words by pointing out that I am no expert in this at all, just a novice and beginner in audio, and am only offering what my own ears told me. I am a bit older than many in here I imagine, and have heard lots over the years, though.
I had brought my Luxman 507 to the shop to compare to the Leben CS300X. I played a range of music on CDs from a LINN Magik-CD, output through some Diatone speakers, only because there were no others even close in type to my Yammies that day. The shop has a super-fast turnover rate.
The CDs I had included (of course) Miles's "Simply Blue," some drum-and-bass-loaded Brazilllian Samba, a string quartet by Wagner, Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture (complete with explosions on the crescendo!), Ella Fitzgerald with Louis Armstrong, Sade, Jimi Hendrix, Arethra Franklin, Maria Callas, Ravi Shankar, and some great whiney, nasal, banging-and-clanging Chinese Opera.
I played about 1 minute of one item, then switched amps and listend to the same sequence, then went to the next item.
The Leben was definitely even more clear and detailed than the already clear Luxman. On the faster stuff like Aretha, Jimi, and the Brazillians, the Leben was "punchier" and "more energetic." (I am sorry that I don't know standard vocal to describe these things, and hope you can grasp what I mean to convey). Over the range from mid-bass through upper-midrange, the Leben gave a somewhat wider staging presentation with subtly more clearly-defined imagined. Unfortunately, and I was sorely disappointed by this, the high-end was too strong and even harsh across the board on almost all these recordings. I felt listening fatigue beginning very soon, and was in each case relieved to return to my Luxman sound.
Mind you, all of these descriptive terms look exaggerated, as the differences were overall subtle.
The Leben has a bass tone control, but none for the high treble. If it had, and if I were able to reduce the subtly harsh effect, I would probably have taken it home, because other than the high end it sounded so good.
I am suspect a part of this judgment might be from being habituated to the familiar Luxman in my home, and also that I have some ear damage left over from wilder days that rings uncomfortably when high pitches are harsh at all. However, I can easily imagine that for many Americans used to listening to harder, harsher systems, as the shop guy described, the Leben would sound like comforting silk.
I would be very interested in hearing about your own listening experience with the little Leben gem, if you would be so kind.
Jimbo |
Hi Jimthewebguy, I'd love to read about the comparison between your luxman and the lil leben. I have yet to hear a luxman, but I've heard the leben you mention.
Thanks
Chas |
Many thanks Jim! I would love to know how the new Luxman cdps (especially the D-06 & D-05) are regarded in Japan.
I have seen and listened to one of their integrated amps, and they are a work of art, both physically and sonically.
Regards,
Mark |
Back to Luxman CD players, Mark Toronto-416
I am not expert on CD players, although I really love the one I've got, so
while I was in the nearby shop yesterday I asked the guys in there for you. They are local Japanese hard-core audiophiles running the local branch of one of Japan's top-notch used audio dealers. The main guy wasn't there, but the two younger guys I talked with both seemed taken aback by my question about "how are Luxman CD players regarded in Japan." They quickly whisked me over to a rather funky-looking 1989 model, which they said together with its HUGE DAC was the top one in Japan that year. Besides that, they were under the impression that Japanese typically prefer Onkyo or Accuphase CD players.
Tomorrow I'll go back to the shop to pick-up some stands for my new B&W 805s, which I'll be using as second speakers. The used TAOC stands are being delivered from the shop's Tokyo store to my local one. The main store guy, who knows LOTS, will be there, and I'll get his opinion about how Luxman CD players are regarded here for you.
By the way, I went to the shop yesterday mainly to listen to a wonderful and rare amp called a "Leben CS300X," which was designed by one of Luxman's top amp designers who (like many others, apparently) left Luxman when Alpine took it over in 1984. For comparison, I played a range of music through my trusty old Luxman 507 and some (stinky) Diatone speakers. I didn't bring my Njoe Tjoeb CD player, so was stuck listening through a vastly inferior LINN Magik-CD. If anyone would like to hear my opinions about the (1978?) Luxman 507 compared to the Leben CS300X, please ask. |
Hi Nolitan. I agree with Jimthewebguy. I have owned the accuphases (e405, e408) the luxmans (L525(model 1987), L505u, L507u). I now have the L507u. I have this one for about 2 weeks, and I stil let it burn in for a while.
The difference between the luxmans and the accuphases is, like jimthewebguy said, the accuphases give a beautiful detailed 3-dimensional sound, but it is a bit cold to my ears. I found the coldness very fatiguing. It can sound a bit harsh and therefore not relaxed to listen to.
The luxmans give a full, rich and musical sound. They always have power to spare and this sounds very relaxed. Even the L505u with 100 W/ch had much more control over the speakers then the accuphase e408 with 180w/ch.
I have listen to these amplifiers with bns soundcolumn III and mission 753 freedom speakers. Both are very neutral sounding speakers |
Nolitan: I don't know whether this is helpful to you, but I've spent a lot of time comparing OLD (pre-1984) Luxmans, tubes, integrateds, and solid-state against Accuphase and some others I mentioned previously.
I found all Accuphase I listened to sounded detailed but "flat" and "dead," without musical energy, in comparison to all the Luxmans I listened to.
I have neither heard nor seen an LFD yet.
There is also wide variation among the Luxmans, however.
The sound I like best comes from the 503x, 504, 507, and SQ38 (all pre-1984). The older all-tube Lux such as MQ60 (mine was a 1969 model) that I had for a while didn't quite cut it against these models, sounding "thin" in comparison.
I tried these through many speakers (Yamaha NS1000x, B&W 805N, Rogers LS2a at home, and McIntosh XRT25, Wilson Benesch, and even a pair of Quad ESL-989s! at the local shop), and over a wide range of music as well, on CDs played through my Njoe TJoeb Superb. |
Would anyone here have first hand experiences how these Luxman would compare to the likes to the Accuphase and LFD Integrateds ?
Thanks for sharing!! |
Thank Jim! There is scant information in NA on the new Luxman cd players (D-05, D-06), but they look interesting.
Regards,
Mark |
