Stingreen, you mention Dark Side of The Moon. Yes, Pink Floyd, Steely Dan, earlier Elton John, my Traffic albums, early and late Fleetwood Mac, some Fairport Convention, and some others sound pretty damn good. Examples of crap sounding albums include Guess Who-Canned Wheat, Doors-first album, Doobie Bros-The Captain and Me, Fever Tree, Roxy Music-Country Life, Genesis-Wind and Withering, Selling England By the Pound-not quite as bad, Eagles-On the Border-so,so, Three Dog Night-Joy to the World, Rod Stewart-several albums, Procol Harum-Something Magic, Pete Townshend-Chinese Eyes, Who-Who's Next, Beatles-nearly all sound lousy, Emerson Lake & Palmer-nearly all pretty damn lousy, Badfinger-Magic Christian Music, I could go on and on.
Stingreen, Eweedhome, I highly doubt any rig could make these turds sound good. These recordings simply lack any sense of scale, I could get a much more bloomy, romantic setup, and I suppose I could pretty them up a bit, but they still would have no micro-dynamics, dimensionality and sense of scale. There comes a point where you simply have to blame the recording!
I was previously running a highly modded Thorens TD160 with a modded Rega arm with Sumiko Blue Point Special, later with the Dynavector, this setup obscured enough detail that the turd recordings were more bearable, but still..... I don't consider my present VPI setup to be in the least analytical, it sounds very musical with good recordings, the 10.5i arm really helped in the refinement dept, along with a fuller tonal balance. I previously had a 9.5 arm with both Valhalla and Discovery cabled tonearms, the Valhalla is definitely a bit more analytical, but the payoff on well recorded albums is well worth it. I'm considering getting a spare 10.5i tonearm custom wired with Cardas, this may help on the mediocre albums. The Cayin phono pre is also on the warm side, likely very similar sounding to the EAR 834, it also uses the 12ax7's. I've been planning on getting some Mullards to replace the present Sovteks, should warm up things further.
Bongofury, I think Better Records may have higher standards than I, my ratio of good to bad is probably something like 20-30% good, perhaps up to 50% listenable, the rest, forget it.
Grimace and Islandmandan, I never expected all vinyl to sound good. I could hear the turds even back when I was running very mediocre vinyl setups. And yes, a forum devoted to classic rock sonic values would be nice. As it is, you have to seek out reviewers you trust for this information. |
Viridian, I have the same issues with digital. Its just that with all the hoopola surrounding vinyl I expected more, unmet expectations are a real letdown!
I also expect that if we were to hear the original master tapes of many of these recordings we would be pleasantly surprised. Who knows how many of my 'original' recordings are 2nd, 3rd, who knows, pressings and/or from 2nd,3rd, or whatever generation masters. The fact that some of my remastered cds sound better than the 'original' vinyl counterparts bears this out.
The damn record companies never much cared about sonic values, and still don't. Can you imagine a world where record companies would re-release these albums, using 1st generation masters with limited pressings. These aftermarket companies selling new/old recordings may or may not be using 1st generation masters, and who knows how many pressings they go with. I suspect some of these record companies lend out later generation masters to these companies, they may not want them using the original master and/or not even know where the hell those masters are. |
Xiekitchen, I never said anything about Yes albums, not even sure I own any, do have remasters on cd, not that bad.
I also agree that Selling England sounds much better than Wind and Wuthering. I still stand by my first Traffic album sounding pretty damn good, Mr. Fantasy not so good.
I stand corrected on the Eagles-On the Border, now recall, I agree, it sounds absolutely terrible. Aja and Royal Scam are the two I'm talking about that sound good. The first Elton John album, and Tumbleweed Connection sound great, Yellow Brick road sucks. I stand by my opinion of Beatles albums, White Album is terrible, Sgt. Peppers-mediocre at best, I have two different pressings, Abbey Road-mediocre at best, I have two different pressings, Let It Be-the best sounding Beatles I have, pretty damn good. Also, McCartney's first solo sounds good.
In speaking about individual albums we all need to keep in mind we may have different pressings. |
Artemus, I am not saying cds sound better than vinyl, I agree, lps generally sound better than cds. However, the fact that some of my remastered cds sound better than my 'original' lp recordings is evidence these particular lps sound like crap.
Some audiogoners seem to be arguing that all lps sound good, blaming my system or the music only obscures the fact that some lps sound like crap. I don't find this hard to believe, what human invention, system, etc. has ever proven to be perfect.
I also think it is a disservice to potential vinyl initiates to propogate the idea all vinyl is wonderful sounding. Future analog adapters should know up front there is bad sounding vinyl so they don't suffer a big letdown. I'm sure there are some who've tried vinyl, heard the same bad lps, and decided it wasn't for them. Believing that all lps are supposed to sound good, then hearing something else is a sure way to lose future analog devotees.
I am lucky to own aprox. 2,000 lps up front, I've been able to hear the wonders of analog with my good sounding lps. If I only had a limited number of lps starting out, and heard a relatively high percentage sound bad, I might be out of analog in a minute. |
Viiu and others, to reiterate, while I am new to vinyl, I am not a dummy. I electronically set azimuth, I have all the tools to perfectly adjust cartridge on tonearm, I know all about VTA, VTF, compliance, cutting head angles, cartridge specs, tonearm specs, etc. etc. ad nauseum......I also know about system synergy, blah, blah, blah......
All these technicalities are not the issue at hand, poorly mastered and pressed lps are the issue. Can Don at Better Records be that wrong, he claims only 10% of classic rock lps meet his criteria. Either his criteria is way off, his system sucks, or his hearing is anything but golden. I doubt any of those issues are the problem, I suspect he and his customers hear exactly what I hear.
What I would like, is to hear someone's system where every lp sounds good. I would also like to bring over my bad sounding lps and hear them sound wonderful on their system. Upon hearing this, I would declare all lps sound wonderful!
I live in Michigan, if anyone near cares to take me up on my offer, send me an email, I would love to hear my bad lps sound wonderful! |
Sorry, meant Tom at Better Records, not Don. |
Stiltskin, Meddle is incredible, it would be awesome to hear it on quality lp. Jaybo, I recall my Meddle (US Harvest) sounding rather lousy, however, that was in a prior vinyl setup, will have to try it again this weekend.
Thanks to all for the heads up on Better records, this guy seems to be right up my alley on evaluating record quality. The site is a fount for the analog enthusiast looking for good quality vinyl. It is sort of breathtaking to see the prices on the Hot Stampers, however.
I will definitely be purchasing some vinyl from there in the future. Looking at prices, I feel lucky to have so many good sounding lps. I paid $1 to perhaps $7 for the vast majority of my lps, I couldn't afford my collection at today's prices. |
No, I'm not saying I'm unhappy with vinyl per se, I am only unhappy with a certain number of classic rock lps. I love the sound on my 50's, vast majority of 60's and even some classic rock lps.
Yes, I probably do have higher expectations of vinyl than digital, thus, I am more bothered by sonic issues on lp vs. digital. And I'm sure some of my disappointment comes from a purely emotional reaction. I did grow up with this music, and always had the dream (now delusion) that it would sound better with a better system.
I also grew up listening to this music on what we would now think of as a highly romanticized system. Dynaco tube amps, pre, speakers, linn tt with ortofon cartridges. But even with this, I could hear the dogs, so I always knew they were there.
I know I will never be able to listen to the crap sounding albums in my system, and it doesn't bother me one bit to say that. I have plenty of good albums to listen to, and tons left to hear in my collection. I also love plenty of other music genres and other eras of music, finally there is always Better records and others selling good sounding classic rock lps. No, I have no problem with not playing crap sounding records.
And finally, it may seem odd to some of you, but I can take crap sound much more easily on my digital. Probably something about diminished expectation, psychological claptrap. Whatever, it works for me. I have tons of prog rock, classic rock, garage rock, and just plain way obscure music on digital I enjoy immensely. I am a music lover, first and foremost, its just that I have higher expectations with vinyl.
Perhaps I listen with a more jaundiced ear to vinyl, but when I hear good vinyl, I think to myself, why do I need to hear junk vinyl. In the end, I guess its all about perception (isn't it always), some see it like me, others can't figure it out.
To me, vinyl is where I can merge the analytical and music lover sides of me, quality sonics is required for this sort of listening. Listening to digital appeals only to the music lover side of me, I can turn off my analytical side and simply enjoy the music. The less work digital requires also plays into this, up to 80 minutes of uninterrupted music can be nirvanna for me, especially with the more conceptual works. |
Ejlif, what gives you the idea I'm not listening to other's suggestions? I am treating all ideas as credible, I simply hold fast to the idea that some lps sound like crap, it seems as if some refuse to acknowledge that.
Some have posted they can get past the poor sonics on some lps and live with it. I can totally understand that, I do the same with digital. On the other hand, some seem to trying to tell me that I shouldn't have bad sounding lps, there must be something wrong with my system or something. This, I don't get! Does every lp sound good in their system? If they do, I would surely like to hear their system, perhaps I can become enlightened.
I am simply defending my listening preferences, I do not wish to hear bad sounding lps. Take a worse case scenario, even if 40% of my records are unlistenable for me, 40% of 2,000 is 800, that still leaves me with 1,200 I can truly enjoy. I also doubt that 40% can be extrapolated to my entire collection, as I've purposely played the most suspect albums early on in this process.
Johnnyb, you agree with me there are many bad recordings from that era, thank you. This goes along with exactly what I've been saying all along. A certain percentage of classic rock era lps sound like crap. As to what percentage, that is still an open book.
Johnnyb, I mentioned in previous posts the offending lps. Just off the top of my head, I can add Eagles-Hotel California, one of the worst ever, Fairport Convention-Rising For the Moon, Bee Gees-2 Years On, one of the worst ever, Alice Cooper-Love it do Death, crapola.
The only real argument people should have with me is, my inability to listen to this stuff on vinyl, when I can on digital. Again, this is simply about perception, for psychogical reasons I can accept less on digital.
A recent post mentioned that every post about digital vs. vinyl turns into a war. I sort of feel like I'm in the middle of that war right now. I'm on both sides, I like digital for what it is, and analog for the best it can be, what's wrong with that?
I'm not being pedantic, I simply admit I can't listen to lousy vinyl. If saying some classic rock era lps sound like crap is being pedantic, then I guess I'm guilty on all counts. |
Thank you, Stiltskin. Yes, I could add my Pink Floyd's Meddle pressing to the stinker list. I've heard the British pressings of classic rock are offen superior to the US versions.
I also find jazz, classical and folk from that era sounds excellent, not one has been a bummer so far. I've also enjoyed my easy listening and country lps from that era. None of this stuff has that overly compressed sound, micro dynamics are intact, and sense of scale is nice, sounds much more like humans making music to me.
I will have to try out some of my newer acquisitions in the coming weeks. I have lots of stuff from the 80's I haven't played yet, also have some more recent remasters I have yet to play. |
Oregon, yeah, I have some older Animals albums I have yet to hear, wasn't expecting much. On the other hand, I have War's, The World is a Ghetto, very nice sounding. My Cream albums all sound mediocre at best.
As for my phono preamp, I've previously auditoned or owned an ARC SP9MkII, didn't like, Project Tube Box, not bad, just a bit too much warmth and lacking some detail, Bellari Vp 129, not bad for the cost, Jolida JD-9, didn't like at all. I have yet to see a review on the Cayin so I don't know how others rate it. It does have great build quality at the price point ($1800), the thing weighs a ton, has very good parts quality, including very good coupling transformers, it uses 12ax7s. I don't know how it would compare to something like the K&K or Art Audio phono stages I was considering purchasing. I ended up getting a great deal on the Cayin, likely because no one's heard of it. Still, considering how good it sounds with quality vinyl, I have no problem. It seems very transparent, detailed, nice soundstaging, precise imaging, engaging tonal balance with extension on both ends, just sounds real nice to me. I am going to replace the Sovteks with Mullards to warm up the mids a bit. I'm not in any hurry to replace, although I may get with Joe Fratus at Art Audio for an audition on one of his phono stages. |
You guys make perfect sense on listening perspectives. Probably one big reason I can't listen to poorly recorded lps right now is that my analog setup is new and in constant flux at this point. Whenever new equipment is introduced into my system I tend to listen analytically up to the point I optimize the sound.
I can listen to my digital solely as a music lover because its been optimized and in my system for quite a while. Perhaps, at some point, when I get tt setup stabilized, I will be able to listen to lps solely as a music lover when the need arises.
Still, regardless of listening perspectives, it remains disappointing that so many classic rock lps sound like crap. |
I have the Atlantic label pressing. I believe the Album Discography website is correct, in that I seem to recall buying this new, some years (early 80's) after it's original release. This also does not have the dual fold cover. |
Atmasphere, I have no doubt that many of those first editions sound great. As I mentioned previously, many of these records were purchased new in the 70's, others at record shows in the 80's. I would think most of those new purchases from the 70's would be first pressings, they sound lousy. On the other hand, some sound ok, or even good. From this, I would extrapolate that some of these 'original' lps sound lousy due to several considerations.
1. Perhaps they are not original pressings even though they were purchased close to their original release date. Perhaps they were using different stampers right from the get go.
2. Perhaps they were not using the 1st generation masters in all cases. They were using safety masters for some pressings right from the get go (thus the UK band on US release, others, who knows why).
3. The recording studio botched the job, these records will not sound good regardless of stamping or masters used.
I know some of the purchases from the 80's are not original pressings as they have different labels from the originals on them.
Perhaps later editions of 'original' pressings may sound better in some cases. These editions may have used master tapes and/or better stampers than those 'original' pressings.
To me, this whole issue of what sounds good or bad is a can of worms. I think Tom is the expert in this, he's heard lots of pressings, it seems there is great variability. Who knows what the hell you're buying! In the end you need to find someone you trust, or listen prior to buying. |
I played my Cotillion pressing of the first ELP album Thursday night. Sound was nicely transparent/detailed, but the bass drums on Tank didn't have the impact it should have, this should be foundation shaking bass. Don't know if its my pressing or vinyl setup. At this point, suspect my setup, still tweaking and have a ways to go. I just have a feeling this recording has a lot more to give. |
My Atlantic pressing has the same number codes, although followed with GIF on side 2, GIA on side 1. I also have a C6 or Cb opposite on side 1, what I believe is fH6 on opposite side of side 2. I also have a chet and some other markings I can't make out on side 1, and a G1 and some other markings I can't make out on side 2. Finally, I have what looks like LB-TTR) preceding the ST-Mc etc. on side 2. |
