Looking for really fine cables at really low price

Grannyring, All,
Yes Wire and equipment has break-in; but I think this concept/reality is stretching out to the hyperbolic. Not many other folks found the Break-in as bad as Salectric, getting dark and closed in where he had to remove the cable. At least now I have a benchmark, like with reviewers, if person A likes a particular thing I will likely not like it. If person B likes a particular thing I will likely like it too. This is good. "Makes the world go round." "Different strokes for different folks." Me, I come down on the side of Day, Yazaki-san, We16ga, unequivocally. That is obvious, or else I would never have brought this wire to the attention of Agon in this and other threads. Again, love the hackneyed expression YMMV. Best, Rob

Jetrexpro, All,
Check. "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" in this thread. The thread title is: "Looking for Really Fine Cables at Really Low Price." So, maybe a reality check is in order since somehow, the WE16ga is being compared and contrasted against $15,000 Tara Labs, 20,000 Euro Siltec, with the inexpensive $1.49 running twin foot WE16ga holding its own, comparing favorably, maybe overall as good or better as these other speaker wires?

Once again there are no "absolute" best anything, but Jeff Day via Yazaki-san presented the WE16ga in his Blog/Positive Feedback review Yazaki-san SPEC Real Sound Amp as well as Yazaki-san's own reference speaker wire and interconnect, WE16ga/Belden 8402. This information presented an unprecedented opportunity for "Timbral Listeners" to obtain a worldclass speaker/interconnect that could potentially fulfill their listening bias at real world prices. Albeit a small window of opportunity due to the extreme limited quantities of the WE. I believe some folks forget the thread purpose, get lost within the nit picks of audiophile reviewer parlance. Simply put, this is a wonderful wire by any calculator. To me, to my ears, it has everything I want/need. If it is not your cup of tea/Java, stick with what you like better.

Nonoise,
You are way, way, off base. I stated, "I am guessing your ears aren't better than the rest of us." Meaning, your ears must be similar. Funny, you complemented me for referencing the Day/Yazaki-san tinned copper threads, when it met with your belief about tinned copper/Supra. No cult here buddy, just giving credit where credit is due, which so many here do not do. In my education I learned how to footnote and cite where information was coming from. Cult, give me a break!

The real ludicrous part in the thread is this was supposed to be about good really low cost cables. Not mega-cost, what most Audiophiles don't have and can't afford. Geez, and to compare them against the WE and admit they are close save for a little extension and inner detail. Sort of demonstrates how good the WE is and how far off topic some folks drift.

NoNoise,
Further, your reference of this quote, "I'll defend anyone searching for the truth but will fight anyone who claims to have found it," is misapplied in this case. I have stated over and over there are no absolute "best" in this hobby. I search for truth in sound/music but it is damn hard to find, and you aren't going to find it in $15,000 Tara Labs or 20,000 plus grand Siltec either. What was making me enthusiastic about the WE and Belden was that even a beginner with modest bucks and a modest system could afford something like these cables that would help them on the path, a benchmark at reasonable cost. There was enough positive input from many other audiophiles and my own listening to determine that it was worth bringing up in this thread. Oh, and how many designers and reviewers tell you plainly what their listening bias is, where "they are coming from" to help you make an informed choice; and to answer your question, yes, you are thin-skinned; but I won't hold that against you, wish you the best, Rob

Nonoise,
I went back and read again my comments and points. I really do not get your point that: "It's just that you seem to get your hackles up when someone diverges from your point of view and you bring in Day and Yazaki-san and all the loyal followers as if your point of view needs validation when just your point of view will do." I certainly didn't/don't have any "hackles up." Perhaps it is my academic/professional training to back-up and reference my point of view with not only solid research where appropriate, or in this case on a audio forum anecdotal findings and comments by folks who have a contrary experience; especially from a superb designer/engineer with a long, reputable career in audio who recommended the WE16ga in the first place as it is his reference after literally trying hundreds from low cost to mega cost. Yazaki-San kindly brought it to the attention of Jeff Day, a respected reviewer/mod maven who was so impressed he started using it nearly everywhere in his system. To me this information is golden, and worth the reference constantly, as people here tend to forget or obscure details. I didn't discover the cable. I'm merely the messenger saying, "hey look what these guys discovered. You might like it. I tried it and think they nailed it.
So, when A poster drifts way off course of the topic: "Looking for Really Fine Cables at Really Low Price" and is comparing the WE16ga or Belden to speaker/interconnect in the five (5) digit cost sphere and is talking about a ninth degree of better top end extension, inner detail, I think it quite appropriate to say/disagree; and reference other folk who did not hear "bright, thin" except, possibly in a first moment of break-in. That's what we have here. Further, you challenged me, why is it not appropriate to say/challenge a bit, "I heard the opposite." As a matter of fact, it should be my duty to question that poster, no hackles raised, just straight ahead question: "you just stated that the WE is slightly lacking the last ninth degree extension, and you hear a small amount more inner detail with the $18,000 -$20,000 wire, right?" "So, you also thought the WE bright and thin?" Well, again, no hackles raised, I believe I have the right to say, "nobody I know heard it that way, more like full, anything but bright, etc., etc.

Salectric,
If you have been reading this thread in its entirety you would know that I don't disagree with what you just stated above. I agree. My point is simply this: I don't hear these speaker wires as you do. Quite the opposite. I explained above that many other folks don't hear them as you do. Nothing wrong in pointing that out. You could likely say the same about me and my crowd. You went adrift though in the context of the thread title/purpose. Low cost cables don't cost what Tara Labs or Siltec sell for. It is nice that you compared the WE to these cables though; and according to your hearing bias the WE fared well. Kind of like a 300lb bully fighting a kid and patting himself on the back because he landed a few good shots, yet the kid acquitted himself well.

Jeff Day, Yazaki-san listed their listening bias, it happens to coincide with mine. You certainly don't have to agree with that bias, most audiophiles don't. Never stated you had too.

So, are we kids in the locker room? You want to see if yours is bigger, better, than my rigs? When I move back to Boca Raton I will post my systems. I am soon acquiring Coincident 300B, plus Coincident Line Stage, new speakers to be either Coincident, DeVore 0/96, Daedalus, Tannoy Prestige Class, Yamamoto DAC or Lampizator level ??? As new listening room system. My wife and I building an AN Kit -1, likely pair the Audio Note 98db silver wired speakers for living room. Currently in my office system I have the Coincident Dynamo 34se. Today we (brother) started modifying it. Putting Yazaki-San recommended Green Cactus capacitors and selected Ohmite Resistors. Also own Cary V12 and 300BSEI. Speakers are Tekton M-Lore, Infinity Prelude Composition, Eastern Electric MiniMax DACs. My brother is a Leben CS600, Harbeth SHL5 guy for the time being. Best Rob

Charles1dad,
What is going on here? With all due respect please stop putting words in my mouth that I did not speak or thoughts I did not put forth. You state: "The essential beauty of a thread such as this is that a variety of very respected and experienced members freely express their listening impressions. This is an enormous asset for all of us." Isn't that precisely what is taking place? When did I create a "Guru" out of Yazaki-san or Jeff Day? I merely gave credit where credit is due. Like you do when you credit Israel Blume, or other member's credit other designers/reviewers/mod mavens. What has made me the villain here where I am accused of something nefarious. Has this become Animal Farm and all Pigs are not created equal according to your quote above? It seems a number of you keep lecturing me about there are no absolute "best". When did I ever state that or put forth that proposition? Never, actually. Simply put, I am happy about this wire. I am happy about what I found out about the WE and The Arizona Capacitors. I shared that Info over recent time, and here today it turned weird.

Saletric,
You have a lovely system. I believe I will join you in Lurker status. This crap totally ruined what was a good day. Best, Rob

Jim Smith, audio set-up Guru and best-selling author of "GET BETTER SOUND" is currently using WE16ga speaker wire and is building Grannyring model WE16ga interconnect.

A comment from Jeff Day Blog from European collegue Siedy Abee regarding WE16ga speaker wire and cables in general; at any rate something to think about:

"I promised you to write an article about the wonderful nice sounding SPEC amp at my home. Due to the hectic time at my work and private live did not found the right time to make a start with the article. On short terms I will do. I can tell that I will put some extra news in it. My friend Piet (www.audiotweaks.nl) has been recently been blown away by the Harbeth super hl5 plus!

I was hesitating a long time to write a bit about the wonderful and truly REAL sounding Western Electric WE16GA cables. I heard them at Piets place. Mr Yazaki-san did send him some meters.

A lot of people are wondering why this cable sounds so real and humanlike. Most people believes that the secret of the cables lies in the copper-tin inner wires. This is partly true. The real secret is hidden in the outer side of the cable! This is a cable that is NOT isolated by a chemical polluted isolation mantel. The materials they use is a type of cotton that is very friendly for the sound! This material does not destroy the sound. A lot of most common used isolation stuff is degrading the sound. Most people do think that the signal goes THROUGH the cable. This is partly true. Most of the signal goes his way OUTSIDE the cable. How more natural the used isolation material (cotton or silk) is (and NON chemical polluted) how better the cable can transport the real music.

My advice is not to isolate the cable with an outer shield. This wil have a negative influence on the sound! Be sure. If you cable is picking up some hum than you can better twist in more heavily. Please twist it right handed.

I looked at your interlink, Jeff. I saw that you used some plastic tape. Please, put this of your cable and have a listen! Or change it by tape made from cotton.

Please, check also if jou twisted the cable to the RIGHT hand site. If not than do so.

Perhaps some people are amazed about the way I explain why this cable sounds so nice. In the last year I learned a lot from my friend Jan Hut about materials who have a positive influence on the sound and in opposite way how materials (plastics, teflon) can destroy the sound. When I heard an interlink made with this approach I was positively blown away.

I would say Jeff, give it a try."

So, Abee recommends no shielding.

I wonder what Almarg thinks?

Almarg you are gold!

Jim Smith has asked Siedy Abee to clarify his remarks. Hopefully Abee will respond soon.

Great posts.
Brownsfan,
How are the WE14ga working out? Plus, can we start the football season with a Giantsfan victory?! I'll let you know soon about the Capacitor/resistor/internal wire change results.

Brownsfan,
Jets, NEVER! I'll put the Browns on my "to root for list."

That Dan Wright looks like a beautiful piece, hope it sounds great as well. I guess I'll get to hear at RMAF, if I make it. ??? Best, Rob

Grannyring,
I am really happy for you! Like Jet, I hope it stays right there or gets even better.

Interesting article on Jeff Day Blog "Adventures in Real Sound with Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki" explains much about why the WE16ga, where they are "coming from," history, what type sound Day and Yazaki-san are after.

Nonoise,
Jeff Day (Positive Feedback/6 Moons) in a recent blog of his in Wordpress did a wonderful article on NOS Western Electric 16ga speaker wire which is stranded tinned copper. It was brought to his attention by the Japanese builder (Yazaki-San), of the new Spec Amp (read Positive Feedback review) as well as a number of fabulous 300B amps in the Japanese markets. Yazaki-San described this speaker with as having the attributes of the Western Electric 274B tube from the 40s, not the later models of 274B. Yazaki-San basically stated it was an "artistic" sounding wire with a transparent presentation that presents a natural, organic sound, full of saturated color and texture, faithful timbre, warm, and dynamic, big soundstage in depth and width. I was fortunate to buy some of this same wire on e-bay for $1.15 a foot. Honest, no hyperbole, it is that good. Unfortunately, it is now even more impossible to purchase as Day's readers bought most of what was being sold in the States. It is fast disappearing in Japan and elsewhere as well. I have used a lot of Kimber cable in my life. I like it; but this Western Electric tinned copper, my system, slays the Kimber I have used.

Another tip Yasaki-san gave to Jeff Day was the inexpensive Belden 8402 microphone as interconnect cable terminated with inexpensive Switchcraft 3502A, or better still if you desire a little more warmth, 3502AAU from Switchcraft. Also Canare F-10s if you need a slimmer profile. Day and a panel of friends compared the Belden favorably to the $$$ Sablon interconnects. Different presentation, but on the same level. I Also purchased these...sound similar to the Western Electric 16ga. This Belden cable terminated as above cost only about $60.00. Terminate DIY, cut the cost in half. I am a happy camper. Read the Jeff Day Word Press Blog, really good stuff. Best, All.

Metman,
Be sure to let us know what you think. My wife and I are now debating: she
likes the PS Audio Statement water hose size speaker cable plus Silnote
Reference interconnect slightly better than the Western Electric 16 ga ( no
where near break-in yet, maybe 20 hrs.) and the Belden 8402 microphone
cable as interconnect with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCAs. I like the WE &
Belden combo better already. I reminded her that the PS/Silnote combo
was over $1,000, the WE/Belden about $80. She maintains the PS/Silnote
is ever so slightly better. She also says, the cost is irrelevant since we own
both and the cost has nothing to do with what her ears hear. She further
states, the set-up either sounds better or it does't. OK, we'll see when WE
is at 100 hrs. Now, don't you guys wish you had a wife like her?

Metman & Nonoise,
I like your description and tend to agree with Nonoise earlier comment, tinned stranded copper, Supra/WE, "kissing cousins" is likely right. It has such an organic natural flow, less the electronic artifacts, full, texture, color, provides a nice emotion connection to the musicians. Everything is in balance. No etch, glare, quiet. Dynamics can be startling. I just love the tone. Rob

1markr, guys,
Here is what you are looking for regarding the RCAs:
I asked Yazaki-san how he planned to construct the interconnects, as there are a couple of different conventions for connecting a shielded two-conductor cable to RCA plugs. Yazaki-san told me, “One conductor is connected to the hot of the RCA plug. And the one more conductor is connected to the grounding of RCA plug with the shield of the cable. In my opinion, the audio signal has AC component, overlapped with DC component and AC current flows forward and backward. And so the conductor to the hot could flow AC forward current and the other conductor to the grounding could flow AC backward current under the same condition. And also grounding, one conductor and the shield could bring out the lower impedance for grounding.”

So in Yazaki-san’s method, one conductor goes to the RCA pins (hot), the other conductor goes to the plug housings (ground), and the shield is connected at each end to the ground. This is a little different connection method than is traditional here in the USA, where the norm is to connect one conductor to hot (pins), one conductor to ground (plug housings), and connect the shield only on one end (normally the preamplifier end) to the ground. Connecting the shield to ground on both ends has some potential risks, decreasing the effect of the shielding slightly, creating the possibility of a ground loop in some applications, and creating the possibility that noise voltages or currents from the shield can get on the signal conductor (Henry Ott, Reducing Noise in Electronic Systems, second edition, page 58). However, I found no issues at all with Yazaki-san’s connection method in my system, and as you’ll read in a moment, it sounded fantastic.

I think in combo with the Belden 8402, in my system, the initial more mellow highs that you heard remain a constant. If I switch in the Silnote Reference (silver/gold/copper) also a excellent interconnect, it does become a bit more lively, but not better. The Belden/WE combo gets it all with an extended top end, but with a more natural flow and manner. Your descriptor, "relaxed" is apropos. I'm very interested in your experiment to try a double run.

Jet,
The lower strings are anything but muddy in my system on classical or any other style of music. I was just commenting to my wife how clear these regions were on the Bach, Stokowski, London Phase4Stereo, Toccata & Fugue in D minor which has a large quantity of lower mids and bass. Quite astoundingly good, great in fact; or take a well-recorded Jazz album such as Louis Armstrong &Duke Ellington/The Complete Sessions/Deluxe Edition, that I listened to this morning, you couldn't ask for better lower mids or bass. Plus the emotion of these various pieces really shine through. As a bass player myself I am extremely sensitive to any shortcoming in this region of music. I will say this though: many recordings out there are a muddled mess to begin with and unfortunately not much you can do with them. Huge amount of crappy sound engineering or further down the road mishaps in the recording or manufacture process.

Jeff's friend Ron said, “Nobody is going to believe what we’re hearing from your Westminsters with this Western Electric internal wiring,” said Ron, “it’s hard to put into words how good it sounds.” Ron is the owner of the Klipschorns, which he internal wired with the WE.

In many respects I agree with the Positive Feedback Review by Wojciech Pacuła of the WE16ga and Belden 8402. The important part for me was this thought: "And again—when I asked the right question it didn't take me long to find an answer. Both cables offered amazingly rich, "mature" midrange—so incredibly good that the only comparison I could think of were the best amplifiers with Western Electric 300B triodes on board. Please notice—it is not about THE BEST SOUND in general, but THE BEST SOUND OF THAT KIND. The one that many of us could live with happily ever after. Sound is remarkably palpable, it is presented close to the listener, it is immersively rich. It's been a while since I heard such an incredibly rich sound here. Mr Yazaki wrote about how "organic" his system sounded like with these cables and now I knew what he meant—it was absolutely remarkable. These cables offer a wonderfully coherent presentation with properly balanced proportion between basic sound and harmonics. They are also phase coherent which results in fantastic spacing effects. Both IC and speaker cable are remarkable, not the best ones there are, but the only ones of their kind."

Then I paused, laughed my evil laugh, couldn't stop for several minutes. When I came to my senses I was struck with this thought: this article sums up perfectly, in my opinion, precisely where the audiophile world has gone off the rails. The descriptors of Yazaki-san style of listening is my own, Jeff Day fellow Positive Feedback Reviewer, describe it as "Timbral Listening", his preferred listening style as well; and I would propose that this style of listening is legion, but not well served by the Audiophile world that places undo emphasis on "sound" rather than serving the "music." The further emphasis on "extended" highs to the ninth degree, or "bass" as described by Audiophile Reviewers is not real bass to me and I am a bass player (much too little space or time here to fully expound my view on this matter).

Then I laugh some more at audiophile values, geez: "I compared them to my reference cables: Siltech Royal Signature Series Double Crown Empress IC and Tara Labs Omega Onyx speaker cable." Holy cow, sound I do not prefer, that cost multiple thousands up against a type of sound that I prefer (300B), that cost less than Two Hundred Dollars for the "BEST SOUND OF THAT KIND." More brick and mortar audio stores would still exist if there was more "best sound of that kind" at WE/Belden cost. It would be "back to the future" where nearly every home had a decent audio system, students would still have those nice dorm-room smaller system with good music/sound. Best, Rob

Grannyring,
Jeff Day is intrigued by your email to him and he states, "After reading Bill Dion’s comment about how well he liked the interconnects he made using vintage Western Electric WE16GA wire, I was intrigued and thought I’d give it a try too. Many thanks to Bill for such an awesome comment!

Well, you should go to Day's Blog, read for yourself, he made your interconnect, has pictures and comments. Best, Rob

Grannyring, Jetrexpro, all
I noticed on the Jeff Day Blog and elsewhere that a bunch of fellas are building Power Cables out of the Western Electric WE16ga. It seems like most are having good success. It appears that Day will be installing the WE16ga PC on his McIntosh MC30s.

Have any of you done this? Results? Best, Rob

Thanks Mitch2,
I suspected TWL was using WE. Best, Rob

Salectric
Terrific report. I'll be staying with the Belden. In my set-up fabulous top to bottom and not soft. I'm going to go ahead and make the WE16ga power cords. I'm going to experiment a little, terminate with Furutech on one pair, Marinco on another pair. Then I'm going to do a pair with WE10ga. Maybe WE14ga as well. Best, Rob

HI mac48025,
Welcome to the WE club. I would not underestimate the capability of your system. I bet it bests many more expensive rigs. I think you have discovered musicality and are going to like it better than musical artifacts. "Real Music" as espoused by Yazaki-san and Jeff Day is the real ticket for many folks to enjoy the music. Music should have a Soul and tick your emotional strings, goose bump territory. Best, Rob

The We14ga Is excellent, period. So are all the other gauge wire, 10ga, 12ga, 14ga, depending on your use. I'm now using the WE10ga as power cord to amp and WE 14ga as power cord to DAC and Transport. Best, Rob

Hi mac,
I'm also purchasing Altec A5 or A7 VOTT. Definitely going to follow the mods implemented by Jeff Day. And remember both Day and Smith owe Shirokazu Yazaki-san for turning them on to the We16ga/Belden 8402 as well as Jeff's Arizona capacitor change and other such mods. Best, Rob

radiohead99,
As the WE16ga nears 100 hours it will lose any rough edge and keep the smoothness and sparkle and become much more refined in my experience. It keeps improving after at is my experience. I am currently using WE10ga for power cords and WE14ga for power cords on transport/DAC. Best, Rob

My experience is the same as Grannyring's with regard to the Dueland DCA16ga. I've greatly enjoyed my time with the Western Electric WE16ga, they are wonderful. But the Dueland tops the WE in all aspects. Roberts (the Beatnik) of Dagogo, replaced his $15,000 plus speaker cables with the Dueland DCA16ga. Best, Rob

Grannyring,
yes I modified the Coincident Dynamo with the Green Cactus plus Ohmite Brrown Devil resistors per Yazaki-san design. My brother did the work as I looked over his shoulder and of course he gave me a good-natured ribbing for being so inept at this sort of thing since high school; so, I had to remind him that I was the much better musician...the Coinincident Dynamo is much more resolving, yet retains all the musically plus I crave, natural tone, color saturation, fullness without bloat, beautiful well delineated stage, harmonic rightness, voices and Jazz to die for. The guitar strums so much better, important to me as one of my relatives played on many Elvis, Rosemary Clooney, Doris Day, and many other artists during the forties and fifties. I also have some of the best tubes possible in the amp. Forgot to mention that I also implemented a NOS Mallory capacitor that Yazaki-san sent.

Hi Charles,
without doubt I like the DeVore the best by a fair margin. But boy, that Harbeth is a nice alternative when in a different part of the house. Best, Rob

grannyring,
good to hear from you. I'll bet the Duelund wire in the signal path is fantastic sounding. I have heard through the grapevine that the other gage wire is on the horizon...don't know how accurate that assessment is, but I am betting that it is likely. Too bad so many Agon members miss the boat and spend much more on cables that are likely inferior to the Dueland by a wide margin. If a audiophile is short of $$$$, Duelund might be the ticket to Nirvana.

What speakers are listening to nowadays? I'm extremely happy that I bought the DeVore Orangutan 0/96s from my brother. While he is away in Europe for the next year or so I also have the use of his Harbeth SHL5 and Leben 600. So, I'm having mucho fun. Best, Rob

Positive Feedback will have Jeff Day review of Frederick Carole's Duelund DCA16ga tinned copper wire up in the Nov/Dec issue. If you can not wait you can read a preview of the review at:
jeffsplace.me where Jeff Day gives much history as well as a fabulous review. Best, Rob

grannyring,
you will love the Duelund wire as speaker cables. I bought a lot if it when it initially came out. Yes, it is "crazy good stuff." Best, Rob

grannyring,
yes, I like it a lot, but sent that WE10ga to my brother who is working in Germany for the next couple or more years. He bought some new stuff over there and he is really enjoying the WE10ga speaker cables. I believe he is going to give the Dueland DCA16GA a try as well as the Dueland 16ga interconnect Parts Connection is offering. Likely he will build his own. How is your new place in TN working out for you sound wise? Absolute Best to You. I really like the power cables you build. Rob

grannyring,
same results for me. Best, Rob

Salectric,
you have been the minority view all throughout the WE16ga and Duelund DCA16ga reviews which generally get rave reviews overwhelmingly. I can only speak for myself, and I find these cables and interconnect to be wonderful.  As the audiophile community is fond of saying, "YMMV"; I encourage audiophiles looking for really excellent cables at a lower price to give them a try. Jeff Day, Jack Roberts (The Beatnik of Dagogo) chose them over $15,000 High Fidelity cables in his system, Jim Smith (guru of "how to get better sound") plus many more credible audiophiles apparently really like this wire. Read Jeff Day review in this month's Positive-feedback. Best, Rob