One other note,
I too, like Brownsfan, truly thankful for the many Golden Ear Audiogon members who point us in a worthwhile direction that helps us enjoy the music. Where else can you find an Almarg who is so kind and generous with his knowledge and expertise, same for a number of Audio Industry professionals such as Atmasphere, who set aside their bias to sell product to give us an inside perspective and share knowledge for no financial gain. Same for some brick and mortar folks like John Rutan, or a reviewer like Tim Smith and the many others who remain unnamed but greatly appreciated. Best, Rob |
Charles, All,
Yes, current High End audio sensibilities went off the tracks a long time ago, especially for folks who are "Timbral Listeners"; and I firmly believe this is the way the vast majority of folks hear music. This notion of "neutrality and accuracy" as you mentioned above is a misnomer. Seriously, what is this notion of "neutrality?" Whatever it is the High End hasn't captured it yet; and can't capture it. A neutral sound doesn't exist. A violin exists. A violin isn't neutral. It sounds like a violin. What we can capture is a "Representation" of a violin that sounds like a violin. That representation requires all of the qualities in "Timbral Listening." Not some ridiculous, implausible notion of neutrality to mean not too much Yin or Yang? As in the story of the Thee Bears it's Just Right! No, to hear the violin, or any instrument "just right" requires all the attributes of timbral Listening as defined in Jeff Day, Yazaki-san, "Listening Bias." The current Audiophile terminology and value system is misguided. Ask yourself, spending more enjoying it less? What am I missing? Likely the emotion and intent of musicians is not coming through to you. To me, in all my reading of reviews "neutral" really was a code word for: cool, thin sounding, uber transparent, detailed, extended, usually lacking emotion or warmth, or other Timbral listening attributes of "real music." The High End concept of "accuracy" is another misnomer. Playback of recorded material is never accurate. Again, the best that the recording and playback industries can possibly do is give you, the listener, a fair "representation" of the recorded material; and they often do a bad job somewhere along the chain (weakest link anyone). A violin is a violin is a violin. Accurate is live, you are there. No recording artifacts. There is no glare, there is no too bright, it doesn't lack presence, it is always musical, it has emotion, you can feel the intent of the musicians, it is always in scale, the timbre is accurate, the tone is accurate, the harmonic overtone is accurate. Music without the full qualities of "Timbral Listening" is the opposite of accurate. Best, Rob |
Vollyguy1,
I will not be able to explain the science to you, or anyone else; but to my way of thinking what matters is that somehow between science and fiat the universe of atoms conspired to arrange themselves in such a way via the WE16ga to deliver excellent musicality incorporating most all values that are significant and meaningful to me as a "Timbral Listener" in search of "Real Sound" from a playback system. I trust my own ears and environment. The WE 16g does it for me. YMMV. Best, Rob |
Charles,
Basically agree on all of your comments. I believe the opposite of the "neutral/accuracy" camp (so-called), if music is absent tonal warmth, fullness and harmonic density it is not accurate, but a false presentation that is not true to the source. Real music includes all the elements listed by you and in Jeff Day and Yazaki-san's well thought out "Listening Bias" articles. These specific elements of music are not artifact, but "Real Sound." Yes, "both groups can peacefully co-exist and go their own way." Like you, I am after natural/organic "real sound" as opposed to the misnomer of "neutral/accuracy." One caveats though, my fervent hope is that more folk discover Timbral Listening, that more equipment choices become available that will exploit this style/type of listening. Brownsfan nailed my sentiments above with respect to the compare/contrast of tubes/equipment of 60-70 years ago compared to today. In my youth many a family had decent sound reproduction in their homes. That can not be said for today's family. Where have they gone? What caused them to abandon in their home good playback of music? Most here won't like my opinion. I don't wish to stir that troublesome pot. So, for me l'll move on to "Back to the Future" as my path to musical bliss with vintage sound combined with the best of the new in tube/SET, or perhaps with a modern breakthrough amp product such as the geniusYazaki-san designed solid state 60 watt SPEC integrated amp that sounds just like the best of SET DHT 300B, according to Jeff Day in his thorough review in Positive Feedback or in his Blog. The WE16ga/Belden 8402, some wonderful NOS tubes, the splendid potential of the Arizona Capacitor changes, Day and Yazaki-san have caused me to ruminate, contemplate this journey in audio...whatever your taste happy listening, I hope you enjoy the music. Best, Rob |
Charles,
I trust Day's ears, Yazaki-san voicing of amp; but like you I remain a Missourian on this one until I hear it. Grannyring was from Missouri on the WE16g/Belden combo until he actually listened to them. Now, most everything he owns is WE16g. A couple of things I can surmise to be likely, is that the SPEC Real Sound amp is a wonderful SS design with many attributes that I would find pleasing; but as stated to you in a different thread it is more probable that I choose one of Yazaki-san 300B or one similar to his D30 tube design. Best, Rob |
Oldcar63,
As a former professional musician I had some fun in my head, had to chuckle, imagining the audience at a venue I played in making comments such as: "Gee, Rob is imaging great tonight, he's almost real and solid on the stage". Sidekick replies, "Yeah, he so transparent I can read his thoughts; I heard his pick drop when he went ten (10) feet back toward the amp to get him some feedback distortion". Another friend speaks up shouting above the kazzillion dbs, "I don't know, man, I thought Rob was taller, thinner, he seems a little weighty and slightly warm-bodied, there is too much tone, really thick texture there, they don't sound neutral tonight, do those guitars sound accurate? Naw, I think they must be an artifact of some type, too full and warm for me, Rob's gotta' play thinner, his top end hasn't irritated me in the least" .......Best, Rob |
Yeah, sometimes we need to laugh out loud about ourselves. Best, Rob |
Jetrexpro, Grannyring,
This information is music to my ears. I want to thank both of you and some others for your brave DIY experiments regarding the WE16ga/Belden, pushing the boundaries of what is known, or can be expected from these excellent wires.
Grannyring, you jumped first with a leap of faith, Jetrexpro not far behind and trailblazing with his own experiment. The two of you especially are to be commended for helping to bring "real sound" at an affordable price to the Agon community. Best, Rob |
Echo the superb listening choice. I'm going to put it on now, relax on this rainy southern Georgia morning. Perfect! |
Rhanson739,
Yes that is the the correct one I believe. She also has red. She has a box for questions, ask her if it is the stranded tinned copper. She doesn't list the specifics in her description as she did before. Best, Rob |
Rhanson379,
As of this morning Tajacobs still has the stranded tinned copper 16ga in both the red and black; and it it appears she has this still on spools. You need to go into her site under "see all items" and you will find it. Good hunting, Rob. |
You may be amazed with High Diamond, but seriously not as amazed as with the WE16ga, laugh out loud! Best, Rob |
If you are a Monte Carlo high roller I suppose at $900 a meter these cables could be listed under the heading of: "Looking for Really Fine Cables at a Really Low Price." Further LOL!!! Bet they don't sound better; but they look really nice, like a hot James Bond piece of jewlry from Monte Carlo. Best, Rob. |
Rhanson379,
That is tinned copper in black. The red is almost certainly the same. Tajacobs has a generous return policy. It is likely you should go for it. As she stated, "limited quantities left." Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
Thanks, your descriptors help significantly. I think when the time is right I will go the Yamamoto route. I trust your ears. Rob |
Hey, as they say, YMMV; I'm in sonic Heaven, zero stuff you folks report. Volleyguy1: You are the first guy to report this wire was "awful" when first hooked up that I know of. Gee, I guess the score on this wire now is about 900 to 3. Don't bother to purchase the Arizona Caps. You won't like them. Best, Rob |
Volleyguy1,
I wrote you this little ditty over on the "Capacitor and Mundorf" thread in case you missed it:
Volleyguy1,
You should likely stick to silver $1,800 dollar or higher priced cables. You obviously appreciate silver and marketing bucks of various cable manufacturers. This is NOS WE wire. No one to market it. When this is gone it is gone. My next line is tongue in cheek with smiley faces: when you get your hearing corrected I'll sell you some of this wire at Cable Company advertised price for Shun Mook cables using this same WE16ga at over $3,000. Small warning, being NOS that price could go higher. Best, Rob |
Jetrexpro,
I understand too, what you are saying; but to get an even horse/wire race what is the price difference between the Kondo and WE as interconnect? Now how much ninth degree better does the Kondo sound to your wife? You like the WE better, correct? So like Day's colleague vote between Sablon (over $1,000) and WE ($80), it was a split decision, 2 votes for Sablon, 2 votes for WE, Day, tiebreaker for WE. So, the difference comes down to what presentation do you like better? The winner is your pocket if you like WE or Belden better. Me, I vote for WE16ga/Belden 8402. They beat all I have tried thus far and I don't feel the need to change. This combo is the best I have heard in my systems with my "Timbral Listening Bias". Best, Rob |
Charles,
I hope you did not mistake my post for a "one size fits all" or something is "the best." Nor was I attempting to impune Volleyguy1 in any manner; just having a small amount of fun (ribbing). No one has to like what I like. I understand that as a given. It is self-evident this is "subjective" hobby with few, if no "absolutes." Sorry if you took this little repartee in the wrong way. I believe if we were live, my tone, body language, you would know I was just joshing around. I suppose us older folks do not know how to indicate that at all times with "smiley faces" and such😇😅. Best, Rob.
P.S. My wife still likes the Silnote (their expensive interconnect) better. |
Now I feel bad, sorta; but to be extremely clear I really, absolutely don't care what other people like, or don't in this hobby. I always trust my own ears. I expect everyone else to do the same. I alerted this board to the WE16ga and Belden 8402, Day/Yazaki-san, Timbral Listening as food for thought. To me, Day/Yazaki-san "listening bias" is stated up-front what they like and seek. This information should be helpful to anyone considering a Review or design principle. It is interesting to note/compare/contrast the difference between typical Aphile listening (majority) and Timbral listening (minority). In the WE16ga/Belden 8402 we received a concrete example of wires that meet the standards of some reputable "timbral listeners." They are low-cost. That they play in the big leagues is a plus, plus, should be of some interest. Again, not to say your own listening tastes won't like something else better; as the hackneyed expression states, YMMV. OK. Now let us nit-pick to the death a wire costing around $80 with a verisimilitude to the big boys, say, vs $1,800 or more expensive wire. Carry on, but I think many miss the simple point. |
Charles,
LoL, my wife keeps asking, "when are you putting the Silnote back in?"
I told her never; but the Silnote could be in her AN Kit-1 if she wanted it there. Hassle resolved. Best, Rob
P.S. I must admit her ears measure better than my ears, but we all realize measurement is not everything. |
Grannyring,
Hilarious! Boy, that Yamamoto went fast! Great price, too! I'm already double thinking it. Ultimately, I'll compare/contrast the Yamamoto DAC against the Lampizator. Best, Rob |
Perhaps because I value his opinion and respect his thoughts and thought (perhaps misguided) that I could utilize a little good natured ribbing ala lockerroom, (whoops, not football site), hence the 900-3 score. My comments were not an attack, subtle or overt. I value contrarian point of view, extremely valuable. How did you like your WE, any thoughts you might share? I'm really quite interested in Volleyguy1's full thoughts when he drops in next...Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
Thank you for the info. Are the two mods the Capictor change? Best, Rob |
Brownsfan,
Really sorry to hear this about your experience. Tajacobs has a excellent return policy. If the 14ga does not improve consider returning the wire. Best, Rob |
Brownsfan,
I don't know, your experience is so unusual and unexpected. Maybe it is the difference between the WE14ga compared to the 16ga? I have three (3) different sets of the WE16ga speaker wire. They all sounded great out the box and just kept getting better and better, top to bottom; completely opposite what you describe, never any nasally sound. Comparing only to our mutual Coincident Dynamo and my system the WE was: big, best soundstage ever, holographic, timbral accuracy, tone, tone, tone, texture, rich saturated color palate, great mids down bass improved, no glare, black background, heard every nuance much, much better, bells, gongs, cymbals, etc. really pristine, top end is sneaky extended, no etch on top register of violins, beautiful wood winds, brass, it is all so musical, coherent. The emotion of the music comes through as well as the intent of musicians. Yeah, natural organic wholeness in a real full weighty transparent manner with the warmth of the real thing. As Ron (colleague of Jeff Day who executed Day's mods) stated, "no one is going to believe what we are hearing." Well, no one is going to believe what I am hearing from the modest Dynamo with WE16ga/Belden, save Grannyring and others who have heard it themselves.
I sincerely wish only the best sound/music for you. Rob |
Hi Charles,
It is almost certain that I am going to the Rocky Mountain Fest, Oct 2-3. Yazaki-san will be there demo with DeVore 0/96 his SPEC Real Sound integrated as well as his turntable design. I believe/hope I will compare/contrast Lampizator/Yamamoto at that event. I trust you will be right with regard to my timbral listening bias, the Yamamoto will likely win out. Best, Rob |
Volleyguy1,
You're good with me, as stated above just good, old-fashioned ribbing on my part as well.
No, I did not cook my wire like Jeff Day. My Coincident is in my home office system as well and the room is well-damped, 14x16x9 (higher at its peak). The WE16ga was smooth and transparent from the start and almost immediately began ticking off all the aphile checklist in a positive manner. As I stated it just kept getting better and as Grannyring stated as well, at about 100 hours it was really great on the aphile checklist, but was musical like few other cables I have owned. No syrup, just real sound/music. It was shocking actually. Completely blew my mind, I wasn't expecting what happened. I decided almost immediately to dump all my speaker cables after my golden-ear wife (classical guitarist) said, "wow, what just happened to the music?" I've already sold some, my silver stuff will be sold soon. Same qualities of music with the Belden 8402 interconnect. Out with the various Kimber, out with MIT, out with the silver Goertz, and some others, you get the idea. Like Grannyring, I purchased enough of the WE16ga for 3 sets of speaker wire, plus enough to wire 3 sets of speakers, 3 amps in addition to any other mods I might make down the line. As I stated many times before with respect to this wire, it is the best so far for me. Whatever rings your musical bells I hope you find it. Best, Rob |
Charles,
I don't know if I really, actually will get to compare the Yamamoto at the Rocky Mountain Fest. I was told by an aquintance one would be there at the show. I am seriously going to attempt to get to RMAF this year. Axpona came to Jacksonville, FL, about 35 mi down the road from where I live couple/few years back, really last show my wife and I spent any time at.
At any rate, if I don't get a listen at this show, worst case I'll jump on it ultimately based on your/Grannyring comments. I know I can trust your ears and listening bias. I should have bought the one from Grannyring, but my life is in such flux at the moment I decided to give myself some more time to sort stuff out before my move back to southern FL. The Yammi just does not pop up for sale used very often. |
Nonoise,
I'm willing to bet those Supra cables sound really good based on what I now know with regard to WE. I also think that there is a fair chance that the tinned copper wire in the Supra has a WE pedigree. If I ever run out of the WE I'd give the Supra first shot. Best, Rob |
Hi Brownsfan,
The wife factor always puts these musical sound related matters into perspective. Your wife made a comment that should make any of us guys stand up and take note. Their hearing ability is almost always better. Please them and guys likely have less problems getting their cooperation with regard to our music system. Sounds like your wife is an asset to you getting great sound. I know all your hard work/sweating in miserable crawl space over the past week or so is going to pay dividends. Your old house had a terrific aesthetic, a real pleasing listening environment. All the best in the new house. Rob |
Mitch2,
Thanks for passing along this wire information. I'm not an engineer, but a musician who left that trade a long time ago to pursue a different profession. My wife is a classical guitarist who also left that profession to pursue another profession. I think we both have good ears and like most musicians we are extremely familiar with a plethora of instruments and how they sound in a variety of venues live, both on stage and in the audience; but I have a bone to pick, or quibble if you will. You state: "Regarding the price, of course it is a tremendous bargain. More will probably try it because of the low entry price. However, I suspect many here are listening in more absolute terms and will end up with whatever wire they enjoy most, regardles of which is lower priced. My WE wires continue to remain in my main system, at least for now."
To my mind in my "absolute world" yes, I will end up using whatever wire I enjoy the most regardless of price. That does not mean however, that the wire I use will be based on some "cable savvy audiophiles" opinion. The view that ETP copper is "clearly inferior" for "audio/sonic" purposes" to other types of copper you mentioned is clearly inferior thinking on the part of those authors. The proof is always in the taste of the pudding, not the measurement or ingredients in it. It either tastes good, better, best, or worse to the subjective taster. Same for sound. It either sounds good, better, best, or worse to the subjective listener. Regardless of measurement or ingredients.
The WE16ga/Belden 8402 sounds more real and musical to me than products made from the stuff you listed above. So, to me in an "audio/sonic" sense they are inferior to me as musician/listener/audiophile. To Yazaki-san, an esteemed engineer/audio designer/builder/mod person who has vast experience with the biggest Japan audio company's as leader, Jeff Day, reviewer/audiophile and many of his colleagues pick WE/Belden over or at least equal to the likes of Sablon/Revive and many other brands of top-notch wires, silver or copper made from your above list.
Audiophiles have bought in with their $$$$$ to many follies. Look around. Ask your audio buddies: how many big $$$$$ mistakes, wrong turns have you taken in this hobby? This WE plays with the big boys. So does the Belden; and let me be clear, there is no "absolute best." |
Brownsfan,
The Modwright Oppo would appear to be a great choice with the Coincident Dynamo/Triumpth combo. You demonstrate with that set-up how you can achieve top-shelf sound for reasonable dollars. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
You truly nail it according to my experience. I'm going to follow Yazaki-san to the letter as well as your footsteps, will wire-up most of the items I have with the WE16ga, install the Arizona Green Cactus capacitors and Ohmite Brown Devil resistors where appropriate. To me Yazaki-san is one of the few folks you must listen to when he talks about audio issues; he has made a lot of folks happy with his recommendation, even jaded old audiophiles. Best, Rob |
Volleyguy1,
Jetrexpro is speaking about WE16ga as interconnect wire in his latest statement above, not as speaker wire; Jet is bravely conducting a few experiments.
Also, I would like to point out all comments are not created equal. You must separate the "chaff from the wheat" to use a hackneyed, yet true expression. In this hobby your own ears and subjective connection to the music/sonic attribute is what matters.
I am going to stick my neck out and make a bold statement, albeit not the first one to do so: it's about connecting to the music; not the sound. It's about the whole Megillah/enchiladas; not the individual parts. Exhibit A: you're at a classical concert featuring Bach sitting in row M. The concert is great, the players, the Conductor, everything just clicked this evening, Bach was masterfully played a once in a lifetime performance. The concert audience roared their approval with a number of standing ovations. After the concert the music lover, still exhilarated, wax with enthusiasm about the music, the emotion of the performance, how wonderful it was, how the Orchestra and Conductor played their hearts out. Bravo! The music lover's friend, an Audiophile chimes in, yeah, I heard the second violinist chair squeak in Prelude in E flat minor. Do you think we heard enough hall sound and decay of notes? In retrospect I don't think there was good imaging, or separation of instrument, something odd, the music seemed to come at you as a whole piece. I think that is what mono sounded like.
A bit of hyperbole; but I think you know the direction I am headed? |
Volleyguy1
The Green Cactus with the values you need. |
My Capacitors are the Green Cactus C50313-6474K. Best, Rob |
Salectric,
Another thank you. |
All,
Great points and discussions. With Brownsfan with Timbre and PRAT, etc. |
Nonoise,
I tend to agree with your observations. I ordered a pair of the Supra speaker cables. I need to find out for myself how they fare against the WE. Best, Rob |
It is astounding to me that the about $15,000 Tara Labs speaker cable can be compared to the about $80 WE16ga speaker cable in the same breath, with the WE16ga comparing so close, so favorably, to most if not all the vaunted speaker wires; and perhaps the WE betters those vaunted wires in certain categories such as musicality, if not in overall performance. At any rate it is close, neck and neck. Let us nitpick about the ninth degree of top end extension (as though realistically) men over forty can truly hear it. Or the supposed "inner detail." Let us pay the $14,000 plus difference in cash to get it. Frankly, it's embarrassing, perhaps downright stupid. |
Nonoise,
I doubt that they will top the WE, so the Supra will likely end up as my home theatre wire. |
Hi Almarg,
I read your referenced articles. Brilliant as always.
Grannyring, you should write a comment on Jeff Day Blog about your interconnect/digital experience. I believe many of Day's readers will have interest including Yazaki-san. Many kudos to you for pushing this envelope.
Jet, as well. |
Charles,
As always a level-headed, thoughtful post. Like you in my audio journey its not worthwhile to debate what listening objective is right. They are both right. It is personal choice. What is truly remarkable is that the WE16ga to a great degree can satisfy both camps. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
Can't wait to hear it myself. Best, Rob |
Well, that's what makes the world go round. I'm going to pop open a nice bottle of wine and listen to my rich and musical rig. Now that I have my tinned copper star I'm going to Marshall my posse for some down-home good music, my brother has arrived with his soldering iron and mutual audiophile friends for a good old-fashioned Sunday shoot-out. We will start to brand tomorrow some Arizona Green Cactus. Today we will all have a resolute good time with tone, warmth, PRAt, texture, emotion, real musicality at any volume I like. I might get up, dance around and "kick out the jams." Today feels like a Rock n' Roll day. Best, Rob |
Grannyring,
I am tremendously happy you took me up on my suggestion to write Jeff Day and let him know what/how you made your WE interconnect. That Jeff is jumping on this build right away is impressive. I'm betting Yazaki-San gets this information and builds a pair as well. I'll email Yazaki-San tomorrow. Based on your experience I definitely will get a pair or two put together. Congrats, on the face of it I believe your build is going to knock socks off!!! Too bad there is not much of this wire around.
My brother, half dozen audio buddies have been having a blast today comparing, you guessed it, WE16ga/Belden 8402 taking on all comers, during the afternoon weRocked, finally settling down to some mighty good Jazz. Tomorrow we move to small and large scale classical. So far we have Dana, Wywires, Auditorium 23, Sablon, some others will arrive tomorrow when we are joined by a few more folks. Will make brief comments on what we find out. Best, Rob |
Mitch2,
Seriously glad you are happy! Best. |
I wonder why I never had any, zero, of this type problem? Jeff Day, Yazaki-san never mentioned any of these break-in dramatic changes. Again mine started out really good and just kept getting better and better. My WE16ga is not dark on top, they are very extended. They have wonderful resolution. They are transparent with all the detail I would ever want. They have stellar tone, texture, color. Excellent tuneful bass. They are natural sounding, organic. Outstanding musical flow and PRAt. In brief, everyone visiting my house yesterday loved them, regardless of what cables they owned. I'll go into detail at a later time.
Late today my brother and I are going to start installing the Arizona capacitors and Ohmite resistors per Yazaki-san instructions. Then over this next week we are going to re-wire internal wires and capacitors in speakers and some other items, probably follow Grannyring pathway. Best, Rob |
Volleyguy1,
You're comments, Salectric, are a bit dumbfounding, what could possibly be going on in your systems that Jeff Day didn't hear, Yazaki-san/his design crew didn't hear; Why he chose this speaker wire. Why the many Day stellar colleagues don't hear what you hear. The legion of Day readers who caused this wire to sell-out don't hear, same for the Decware folks and buzz on other audio web sites. I am guessing your ears aren't better than the rest of us. As the cliche states, "to each his own" that makes the world go round. Best, Rob |
