Looking for input: Best material for mid range cone

Paper absorbs humidity and it changes sound accordingly.  If coated that changes it all. That said, Youtube Vandersteen showing his carbon fiber cones vs a WELL KNOWN paper cone that's used in speakers from 15k to over 100k.  It shows the paper cone being out of phase quickly and that creates smearing.  No crossover can compensate for this.  

Wow, interesting thread with no right answers.  If you want to talk measurements, you need a driver (cone is only part of a driver and then it's the crossover and other materials that make up a great speaker.  The mids shouldn't stand out. If they do, then you lose coherency, which isn't what high end audio is about.  

A great mid driver needs to be fast.  This is the one advantage that the ribbons and planers seem to have, however to properly reproduce a square wave (a great speaker must have excellent measurements in addition to sounding great), you have to have a driver that will be as pistonic as you can get.  The cone needs to be as light weight as possible AND as strong as possible to display the speed of a ribbon or planer (or as close as a driver will come).  

Only a few materials have been mentioned in this thread.  Right now, the best (again, subjective, but being used by Vandersteen with it's balsa wood cone wrapped by a specific carbon fiber that was chosen for it's sound quality over many listening sessions) seem to be cones made of carbon fiber.  Some companies are using a carbon nano composite and they are also fast and strong, but I've yet to hear one that is piston in nature and it doesn't produce a musical tone to my ears, but others will disagree.  

I have yet to hear as haunting a mid as the Vandersteen 7's and this is one reason I'm a fanboy.  Can't help it and in years to come if someone else does it better, then I'll be a fanboy of their speakers.  What so many don't realize is that a great mid bass speaker MUST have a very very fast mid.  The midrange truly is 90% of what we are hearing and the problem with so many on the market is distortion.  

I've only liked a few ribbon speakers.  I do like some planers too.  The key to any system is matching components also.  

See how there is no correct answer per say.  Maybe in the future, we will get other materials that will be made in 3D printers that will crush what's currently on the market, but for now, my money is on the Vandersteen Carbon Fiber cones for both midrange and tweeters.  JMHO

Whatever floats your boat is the right answer.  I do however like the Youtube video that Vandersteen puts out showing the pistonic nature of their Carbon Fiber cones/drivers they hand build in Cali.  The planers and ribbons can not recreate that and neither can the paper cones in the video (They are from a very expensive, high end brand speaker). 

To me, accuracy is so important as are measurements when they design these speakers.  a great designer can and often will design a speaker on measurements and know what it will sound like.  Then they will listen and tweek accordingly.  They will listen to various materials and some take the cheap route and tweek an off the shelve driver or use an exotic material for sound, but much of the time for marketing.  I didn't listen to Vandersteen's until they started to use carbon fiber technology and to my ear it's made the most significant difference in speaker sound when utilized correctly, than an material I've heard in over 30 years or so.

For those who haven't heard the model 7's or 5's you really should take your favorite recordings and go listen.  I did and ended up switching speakers a few years ago.  There are still many speakers out there that I like, but none that I love like the Vandersteen's.  Getting value at the higher end is rare and I do appreciate that also, but it's still all about the sound.

Implementation, as I said before is KEY....hard to argue that.  

Actually that's not at all what it being said. What's being said is that many companies are using better quality materials and implementing them properly.  To take a good thread and make a post that sarcastically puts down good companies is silly isn't it?  

Just look at the measurements of these drivers that utilize new materials and driver concepts.  Hard to argue with great measurement AND great sound.  Have you heard the Vandersteen 7 mk2's set up properly?  What about the other speakers that are using up to date technology?  Maybe you have, but to make a blanket statement like that says otherwise.  

Not one person has said anything negative about the other posters love of his speakers, so not sure why you would have a sarcastic comeback.  Interesting...

mmeysarosh51 posts07-04-2017 10:24pmAny material used in diaphragm will have properties that require attention to gain optimal operation. Beryllium as an example has very high self damping (stiffness of cone) but doesn’t exhibit much internal damping (ability to dissipate excess energy within the material). While the operating range of one will be greater, care to ensure you stay within its operating range for its given size and construction.

I would like to address carbon fiber, since its brought a number of times but aspects of it should be known. There are so many grades of carbon fiber and the epoxies used, construction method employed, and design parameters in that you can come to some very wildly different results with the very same material. You could spend an considerable amount of time in FEA design between differing grades, weaves, shapes, etc. The modulus alone could vary by a factor of five just by simply changing from a low modulus to high modulus fiber. The expense of high modulus fiber is notably more and typically forgoes some tensile strength when modulus increases. But in this application, tensile strength matters little with it being well beyond what is required in nearly all grades. The latest development in this area has been the infusion of graphene in the epoxy, which aids in producing a more uniform carbon fiber sheet. This will further extend how light a driver cone could be made without any loss of stiffness. This still doesn’t account for the mass of the voice coil, former, surround, etc.



I agree that you must take into account a complete design as I've stated before. When your looking for the best material, it must include a completed design. Only with this, combined with the desired operating range and crossover implementation could one select the best material within a given cost. I do mention cost since its very easy to gain a marginal improvement for an extreme cost, one which is better spent in other areas of the system.
Yes any driver needs to be a total design involving all of its components. You are correct in saying all materials have a distinct sound that is why the Vandersteen Model Seven drivers (tweeter, mid, mid-bass) use extreme modulus uni pre-preg with high modulus graphene loaded matrix 29% front and back with balsa as a truss form and damper between them. Balsa has 8 times the compressive strength of rohacell yet is a very effective noise damper (note used in Corvette floorboards to damp road noise). All this used in all drivers involved 100Hz and above offers less color or sonic characteristics then ever achieved.

And s many of the composits do sound better than what we've had if implemented properly. 

Implantation is what it's all about. Been discussed already and it's nearly impossible to say no to, lol.  That said, I think if implemented properly, many of today's materials that weren't available years ago, can and do often sound better than the materials of yesterday. That will constantly be the situation. Even Ribbons are now using better materials to achieve better results IMHO.  I was never a ribbon guy, but I've heard some nice ones recently that don't make me want to walk out of the room after a half hour of listening.

It's all personal and as someone stated in the beginning of this thread, there is no one right answer or wrong answer.  My favorite speakers are using a carbon fiber sandwich with a balsa wood core for the stability etc... while some others like others.  Just like anything else, it's personal.  

The one material I WILL say is outdated is a pure paper cone that isn't treated.  It will sound different depending on the moisture in the room.  It really does.