First off you can't ever say that one speaker blows the other out of the water. Many for YOUR ears, but not for other folks. I have tried and tried to like the Legacy's and for ME they are way too hot. I do like their newest tweeter much better than their older one, but for many of us they aren't what we like. I"m glad you love yours as that's what it's all about.
The nice thing is that you can find more than a few speakers you will like. I love Vandersteens (just sold my Treo's this past week) and purchased the Quatro's. For ME, they blew away anything I heard under 30k and I heard most of the contenders that are real companies with distribution (again, just my humble opinion). I also love Proac's. The newest ribbon Stuart is using is smooth to my ears and just an outstanding value too.
Some folks seem to like speakers that are tipped up on top or brighter. I've seen names of those types mentioned in this thread also.
Lot's of choices and if there is any way you can possibly audition to at least get to know what type of sound you like, it will help you in figuring it all out. Maybe you can call Johnny Rutan to see if he has the Quatro's for sale still. He's also a Proac dealer as well as B&W's (not sure which lines) and he's an outstanding Maggie dealer too. Not sure where you live, but if you can speak with a good dealer who is open minded about all their product lines, they can help you greatly. Just make sure and purchase through them so it's not wasting their time. JMHO again. Keep us posted. |
I've owned many Proacs over the years and the first really non fatiguing speakers they have on the market to me are the newest ribbon tweeters, but for what the OP wants, they will be out of the price range probably. He's need the larger ones if he wants to play rock and move a lot of air. Again, JMHO.
I love the Treo's and the CT's even more. They won't move the same amount of air as the 3a's will though. The newest ones are very detailed, especially compared to the list of other speakers in this thread and they will move a ton of air, without the need of subs.
If I'm the OP, yes, I'd go visit a dealer or two to audition. Will the speakers sound the same in your room as they do in the dealership? No of course they won't, but much of the time, your house will sound way better than a dealer's room will. Most have others speakers in the room and that will hurt any audition. They have no choice usually, unless it's their TOL speakers where they may be able to dedicate a room. It's a tricky slope for any dealers and they try their best to give you a great experience. Just keep in mind that they too have personal likes and dislikes and will often push you towards something they like even if you may like something different. Stay true to your own ear and listen critically to music you are very familiar with. You already know these things, but it never hurts to read it again.
Before we packed up the Treo's for Bob, I let him hear my full system. As he can probably attest, I don't have any special room tuning devices, just well engineered and built components that are properly set up. That's the one thing that Johnny Rutan can do and that's set up a room. He goes to the Boston area all the time for installs, so that wouldn't be a problem for you. I personally feel that it's worth it. I have been setting up system since the early 70's for folks and Johnny is as good as anyone I've seen in the business. I've had reviewers as other dealers in my various rooms over the years to set up things, but none have done what Johnny has done, that's for sure.
Sorry, didn't want to make this post a commercial for Johnny, lol., but as I was typing I just kept going as it's how I feel. I'm sure that many others here feel the same way about their dealers who are setting up their gear. It's one reason why I purchase only gear from major companies who have been around and have strong distribution in the US. They keep their value better than small boutique companies and are easier to sell later on when I upgrade and if something does go wrong, they are there to service their gear and stand by it. I can't tell you how many times I needed a service on a piece of gear that was way out of warrantee and a company just charged me for parts or gave me a very discounted rate in order to make sure their product was in great working order and that I had a great user experience. I went again with Vandersteens, because of their upgrade policy for original owners (same with Ayre and why I went with them too). I like to know I can pay for the upgrades as it adds many years to the life of my gear. It's been much cheaper in the long run and allowed me to do upgrades when I feel it's worth it.
Sorry for the long post, but it's been a boring morning and it's always fun sharing. Just chose a few speakers to audition and set those up and go from there. It sounds like you just want a non fatiguing speaker that will have nice detail and move some air in the room for some great rock (I too love rock). Fun thread and thanks for starting it. |
Yes, I was an audio free agent when I started to rebuild my system a few years ago. I went up to Boston and Walt up in NH (daughter is a jr at UNH), but I loved Johnny. I didn't love what was being pushed by two of the larger stores up there. I recently was in NYC to try and audition some gear and ended up at Lyric again. I had used them in the 80's (Jadis) and for an Aragon piece for a friend, but the guy who owns it now was a real dick. He told me how dry and unmusical my Ayre gear is and he knew because he was a dealer many years ago. He hasn't even heard the new 20 series, but he just pissed me off, so I left and made sure to let anyone I know how poorly I was treated.
Sorry, that just came out, lol. Oh well, they get what they deserve. Yes, Johnny has the Proacs as he realizes that not every one is a Vandersteen fan, plus he also carries B&W and I think NOLA or maybe it's ELAC. not sure.
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fdemello, email me at ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu. Yes, I knew that store. |
I agree with the dealer above about used vs demo. Not even a question for me. I just can't buy a used speaker or transport. When I see a used TT, I'll look as you can tell if someone takes care of their gear or not.
Too many horror stories about used speakers and blown drivers that sometimes even the owner didn't realize (yes, believe it). I purposely replaced the surrounds on all three pair of the Proacs I sold a few years ago, because Proacs foam surrounds only lasted about 10-15 years max before disintigrating. |
Probably a good list. I won't go in order, but my impressions of these speakers (yes pretty familiar with all of them).
Hot high end. Cant' listen to Rock that was not recorded properly as my ears burn. Lot's of thump in the bass. Pretty reveiling.
Sweet sounds with very little imagining or sound stage. No true detail
A nice speaker that can be peaky, but it does more good than bad. Hard to rock out on as it doesn't move too much air in the room.
Huge sound stage and nice imaging. Very detailed, but still a bit veiled. Dynamic, but needs to be played at loud levels to achieve this. Moves decent air, but not the most tuneful. Overall a very good speaker
Best of the bunch. Most detailed, will be truthful to the recording, but the smoothest highs on the bunch by a country mile. Tight tuneful bass. Most dynamic with no smearing. Will move enough air for all types of music.
Basically, the poster gave a set of speakers that all sound very different and behave very differently from each other in a room depending on boundaries...
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Guys, I won't say which is which so folks can go listen and make up their own minds. Those are my own thoughts on the speakers. All my post was saying is that said poster put together a list of speakers that all sound totally different from each other. Yes, it's obvious that I'm a Vandersteen guy as they do virtually everything and over the many years Richard has been designing, he's realized where most folks don't mind a corner to be cut. NO speaker is perfect an it can't be right now. All have to make design choices. To me it came down to which company got their corner cutting right.
I just didn't want a speaker that was literally turned up at all on top or couldn't be tuneful down below and still move some air. All stand mounted speakers were off the table at that point. Hey, the footprint of a floor stander is the same as most stand mounts anyways.
I needed a speaker that threw a realistic and sometimes large sound stage and also had great imagine. I was coming from Proacs and that's what they are known for. I personally don't like buying from the huge conglomerates if I can help it. I'd rather support the smaller companies. I love some of the Audio Research gear, but will buy Aesthetix or Ayre over it since they sold.
As I've said, I also need a speaker that is dynamic as ALL levels and there are very few that ever get that right. Some of you don't care about listening at lower levels, but I live in a real home and my listening room is a loft. I'm just thankful that Johnny Rutan helped me set it up so that the sound is as good as what I used to have when I had a dedicated room (well 90%). The one thing I've also learned over the years is that you can't look at a speaker and know what type of technology is in it or how much time it actually takes to make it. Some companies make their own cone assembly's and send them out to the top driver maker to finish them. I like this approach as the company can control their sound better than using off the shelf drivers, even modified ones. Some companies are large enough to roll they own from start to finish.
When I look at a cabinet (this is the major thing Wilson markets and sells to folks), how's it made? Does it really reduce vibrations that can smear the notes? Some companies have a very simple way to brace a cabinet. Materials are important of course. One company builds a cabinet within a cabinet AND used damping material in-between. I make wood furniture and really appreciate a professionally finished speaker too. I always notice how a company matches their veneer's. Some companies use real wood veneers, but very thin ones like the furniture in the 80's. Wait til you get see a nick and you'll understand. I personally have now gone painted on my Quatro's that are being built because I love the color I]m using. I like the fact that you can order a speaker painted over veneer if you want to. It gives the speaker a totally different look for whatever room you are matching.
These are just my own personal tastes and many will disagree. This is why there are so many speaker companies who come and go. Many just don't have "it" for the long term. Many make a great sounding speaker at a fair price, but aren't worth it to me. I loved Meadowlark years ago, but they were literally built out of the guys garage in San Diego if I recall. You can't give them away anymore and too bad if it blows on you. I guess that would be one case where stock off the shelf drivers would work best, lol. |
Yes the old Meadowlark speakers for the money, were nice. the other problem I have with some companies is that they discount their speakers. For most, you think that's great as you can afford them, but in hindsight, it also kills resale value and in the end, most lose money. Folks are buying and selling audio gear at a rate never seen in years past. That's what Audiogon, Ebay and USAudiomart have done (in the US and other sites in other countries). To me, I always cared about resale value and that's why it's very rare for me to purchase gear from mom and pops, along with all the reasons I have shared. Not taking anything away from what they are building, but they also don't have economy of scale, so how much are we really saving?
Take company A vs B.
A has been in business for well over 25 years and sells a ton of gear that is considered some of the best in the business AND sold for a fair price with pieces that constantly hit well above their price classes.
B is a mom and pop and has been in business for 10 years, but the first 7 or so were a hobby business. The owner, manufacture is also the head engineer and marketer. Using the internet, they market their gear and sell a bit. They have been great at getting their gear in the hands of the power writers who have great things to say about them. They have a very loyal base of fans who they sell direct to. They most often will discount their gear at large discounts, because they can cost it out higher and make it look like folks are getting the deal of a lifetime. In the end, their gear is selling for where it should sell at a store, but since it's direct and their marketing budget is basically giving their gear to a few reviewers and asking clients to blog and do write ups on various sites, they keep their overhead fairly low. They give good value for the price.
A has ads in pubs and also offers gear to reviewers. They may sell their product to the write if they want it at commendation cost (maybe around 50% off). They are selling many more pieces than B and have economy of scale. They also are a real company size wise and can pay a lot more for true R&D and have many engineers working for them.
Company A has only a 38% markup and not 45 or higher like some of the other companies out there.
A doesn't allow their dealers to give discounts on their gear. If a dealer does give someone 10% off list price, they are taking that from cables or other larger mark up items. A's gear usually keeps a much higher resale price vs B. B's gear is marked down a ton at the first sale and most folks realize this and offer even less than the 50% markdowns for second or more sales.
Company A's gear also has brick and mortar stores stand by the gear and allow you to bring it home to listen to it in your system. they offer all that stores offer for set up and their knowledge.
Where are you getting the best buy? There are always some exceptions, but I've been around audio for so many years now and I have been fortunate to know so many in the business and to discuss these issues. I'm close with a few mom and pop engineers too and love some of their gear. Heck, I love Steve Nuggent of Empirical. I've had so many talks with Steve about life, woodworking, restorations of homes as well as his take on audio and his products. I owned his DAC and LOVED it.
I have nothing against smaller companies, but for many reasons, I won't be purchasing from any in the near future. Again, that's just me. I'm as cheap as they come and need to save money to maximize what I can afford. I don't have a large wallet, but as Bob has shared, I do care greatly about having the best sounding gear for the price.
I dont' pretend to knowing it all. My posts may come off that way, because it's not easy for me to write in the tone that I'm feeling most of the time. That's a hard thing to do and most can't. that's why we often have major disagreements on boards, when in fact it's just banter over beers and we all respect where the other is coming from. Hopefully when folks read my posts they understand the passion behind them and the respect that I have for most (not all, lol). Thanks for reading if you have. Pete |
Bache, really? How could one ever make a statement like that and be taken seriously? There is no one best. Not even close. I guess you don't buy into posts that say that we all hear differently. I'm not putting the speaker down at all. I personally feel the Vandy 7 mk 2 is the top speaker I"ve heard, but many other would disagree and some would agree. Others love Magico's and Wilsons. Rock ports are well liked and respected too. I'm sure you were just posting tongue in cheek. ;) All good.
Nice list as you will get a lot of different sounds there. NONE sound even similar to my ear. |
Bob, what if you kept the speakers for a long time and you blew a driver? The money you'd get back would be zero as you most probably could never get them fixed properly. When purchasing components at or above the 10k mark, I don't want to take that chance. Again, that's me. I had a DAC that was a 9k DAC. I bought it used for less than half that and was lucky to be able to sell it for a bit more, but the owner is getting older and probably only will be around for another two years at most and if so, then there will be no one who can work on his products as the design is not the norm. There may be someone who can. I get that a great tech should be able to figure it out and replace a component, but what if it got wiped out (seen that happen and thank goodness he was around to rebuild it).
Like I said, there are some outstanding components from smaller companies, but it is just a larger crap shoot I guess you could say. That's all. |
Great list you have. Not too many and all different tastes. The winner will come to light for you quickly. I'm hearing out to Nepal for a family wedding and will be back on the 10th of Feb. If you are heading out to audition after that, let me know. Would be fun to meet up as you aren't far away. Pete |
Of course. I'd love that. Would be a lot of fun. You can audition etc, but we'll have to take a listen to the Vandersteen 7's with all the top gear, lol. It will be an eye opener. Also will do the Maggies upstairs. |
I'd make sure you went to audition the speakers you have chosen to listen to before purchasing online used. JMHO, but I have seen way too many chasing their tails and losing money trying to find the speaker they would have found if they listened to a few before getting that 'great' online deal. There will always be 'that' deal used if you decide to go that way, or you may feel for a speaker, having the warrantee is important. Again, JMHO |
Congrats. So happy for you. Johnny will take care of you as you know. Set up is key. Yes Richard is as available as anyone I've ever met in this or any industry. I'll be in shock if you want to get rid of these in the next many years lol.
Guys, I'm in Nepal for a family wedding for another week or two, but within a few weeks of getting back I'll have my Quatro's painted in Audi Havana Black which to me is gorgeous and had a high metallic look. Ayre is installing my crossovers in my AX-5/20. Then I'll have Johnny come up to CT to set it all up for me. This is so awesome hearing how happy fofolks are. Bob have you set up the Treos yet? Those are going to really sound great. Been missing them lol. Thank goodness I have a nice pair of Noble Savants for the trip. Will be selling these too soon as the upgrade bug has hit for my mobile listening too lol.
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So happy for you getting the Quatro's. Still waiting on mine as I told them to hold off a bit as I was away for two weeks. I'm missing my system and than goodness I have some good headphones to use while everything is away getting updates and crossovers installed.
You will be most happy with the Vandersteens I'm sure. Keep us posted on everyt8ing . If you need help setting them up and doing the bass eq, let me know as Johnny at Audio Connections will help out Im sure. |
I will be when I get them. They will be very special for sure. |
Wait until you get the speakers up and running. Like anything, give them a legit break in as they need it every time they are moved. Listen to Johnny and he'll make sure you get everyone out of them that they can do. You heard how good they sounded in my system. I'm sure they will be just as great in yours. Happy they went to a loving home, lol. True audiophiles understand that last statement. |
NYC, yes, you have a killer set up. Wait until you get that system burned in, lol. Johnny is as good a set up guy as you will find anywhere. Keep us posted on break in. |
I'm so happy Bob. So glad that you love them and will give them a great home. I know it sound stupid, but when you sell your gear to someone who appreciates it, it makes you happy, lol. |
