Linn LP12......That good??

illenema1: The high-endaudio.com guy (Arthur Salvatore) is full of hot air and VERY dubious opinions, at least as judged by my ears. Anyone who takes what this guy says as credible without verifying it with personal experience is a fool. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is simply true.

Now on to the broader point. As people have said, you really can't talk about an LP12 without specifying *what* LP12 you are talking about, e.g., what power supply (Lingo, Valhalla, Basik), what bearing (cirkus/non-cirkus), and of course what arm. The other thing to keep in mind is that these are not "plug and play" devices. How they sound varies radically depending on whether or not they are set up properly.

My own theory about the number of LP12 detractors is that many of them have only heard older tables, and often ones that have been poorly set up at that. If you plan to buy a used table on ebay, set it up yourself in your home , and then just start to spin records without giving the matter any more attention, you are probably much better off buying a Rega. Unless you are a talented analog geek with a lot of LP 12 experience - take a bow Pat (Lugnut) - it is going to be sonically miles away from what it can and should sound like. Most of us need a Linn dealer or Linn tech to make these things sing, especially if it is older and has been sitting in someone’s closet for the past ten years.

Narrod, thanks for your comments. A man who owns and uses 4 different tables has opinions that need to be heard!

Cleopatra52: Do you recall what arm and cartridge were on the LP12 you heard? When you say recent version, I assume it was Lingo (version II) with a Cirkus bearing. But the difference between an Ittok and an Ekos, or even between an Ekos I and an Ekos II (especially one with an Akiva mounted) is very dramatic.

I of course have no problem with people who have actually heard a full spec LP12 and compared it fairly to another table, and then concluded that they like the other table better (for example, a VPI TNT). But the specifics about the arms and cartridges involved are critical for the comparison to be very meaningful.

Cleopatra52:
If you find some use in Salvatore's site, fine. But really I don’t see him as someone to be taken seriously - he is just some guy with a blog, a crusty temperament, and no small amount of a persecution complex.

He fits a very recognizable type in audio. The audio professional who has passionate opinions based on highly personal taste (in some cases opinions that are also informed greatly by personal, competitive grudges developed over years in the business) who then sets himself up as some kind of High Priest of Audio Truth. If you have been around even a short while you have run into many of these people, and low and behold, you can find equal passion in equally experienced people representing nearly diametrically opposed views.

Ultimately, you have to trust your own ears, and the ears of people who earn your trust by sharing your tastes - and by acting like reasonable, rational beings. If you have done legitimate comparisons of other tables with an LP 12 and found other tables you like better, fine. I am happy for you. But you do your views little credit by in any way linking them to those of Salvadore. Salvadore’s comments on the LP 12 are dripping with what appear to be best described as his personal issues. He is so wildly unfair in his statements about the LP 12, one concludes he is either simply ignorant or passionate beyond rationality on the subject. For instance, he dismisses the dramatic improvements in the LP 12 with sarcastic reference to “upgrades” upon which no one should waste money. He refers to the LP 12 as essentially nothing more than a successful marketing scam. I could go on. I honestly can’t make any sense of where the man is coming from other than it be from some sort deep set of personal issues (bad competitive experiences as a dealer, I don’t know what). Or, to be as charitable as I can be, perhaps it all stems from passionate personal beliefs about what “the right” sort of turntable design should be. (Of course, abstract design opinions and sonic experience with a real product – i.e. the modern, full spec LP 12, are very different things.)

Again, if you have some use for the man, fine. But you greatly weaken the seriousness of your opinion about the LP 12 when you reference this sort of guy to buttress it.

"I did not hear the Lingo but come on guys, be serious, was the Linn's Valhalla motor circuit the entire reason for the Linn's mediocre bass performance?"

Jafox:
Actually, yes. The lingo adds what seems like another octave to the bass over a Valhalla, and that is just the beginning of the improvement. I've owned both and know the difference first hand. It seems crazy that a power supply alone could do this for a table, but it does for the LP 12.

As to your comparison of the LP 12 to other tables, keep in mind the version of the LP 12 you were using -valhalla, cirkus, ittok - can be had for around $1500 on the used market. There is nothing I have heard in this price range that sounds remotely as good. The same is true once you add the $1000 a Lingo costs on the used market - it is still far and away the best I have heard for the money.

Where I think people choke on the LP 12 is the idea of buying one new. I suspect this is a very fair criticism. (But incidentally, not the question raised by the original poster.) I haven't heard enough tables in the 10K range to say for sure, but I would be surprised if you couldn't do better than a Linn for this money. (But I should say I have heard Clearaudio tables and greatly prefered my much cheaper used Lingo'd LP 12.)

But I do not own stock in Linn, nor have I married the equipment. And by no means have I done all the A/B's I would like to with other tables. I am always on the look out for things I like better for the money. I would anticipate that if I don't end up replacing my LP 12,at the very least in a few years I'll be like Narrod - the happy owner of more than one high end table.

As to set up, it IS a big issue. Perhaps not for you, who have taken the time to learn what you are doing, but this in no way describes the average guy picking up a table on ebay. And if not set up properly, these things a less than half of what they can be.

Cleopatra52:
I was not implying you were crusty, paranoid (or a blogger). Indeed, your comments in this thread have struck me as measured and reasonable, which made it striking when you linked them to Salvadore, whose opinions are none of these things. And I do not speak about his LP 12 opinions alone. If he said nothing at all about the LP 12, or even if he said he liked it, I would still think he is a crank and a bit of a quack. He states views on many other audio matters in an absolute, arrogant manner that grate when you know he is dead wrong as measured by your tastes and those of many of your friends. But more than my finding him irritating, I think it is important for me to push back anytime someone sites him in one of these threads as authoritative, lest less experienced posters become confused that he speaks with any sort of legitimacy on audio beyond his own highly personal opinion. People must make up their own mind based on their own ears, and I believe trusting Salvadore for many is a recipe for sonic disaster and wasting money. He is so far off the mark on many quite expensive recommendations (again, at least based on my ears and those of many others I know).

Cleopatra52:
I agree - it is getting tiresome. Let's leave it and go listen to some music.

R_F_Sayles:
I don't back off on my general assessment of Salvadore, though do regret calling him a "bit of a quack." That was not kind or mannerly of me. And yes, I can find some things he says that I agree with.

Busted. ;)