@mahgister
I like Rev. Davis. As I've said, I was lucky enough to go to U.C. Berkeley in the 60s when all manner of musician and other artists were around. I heard blues on record players and live from real blues players. I had musician friends who played Blues licks. Of course, they couldn't sing them worth anything. (I'm being careful about my four letter words because I had a long post excised for using a four letter word.}
I must explain, though. I have a dry sense of humor and posting a spiritual by a guy who looked like John Denver was slightly pulling your leg. That's not to say I wasn't taken by him when I heard him on the radio. And I still like that song.
The old blues and spirituals sounded dated, though, in the 60s and 70s. I think my spiritual singers were Marvin Gaye (What's Going On) and Stevie Wonder. I can't imagine that anyone on this thread hasn't heard "What's Going On." If you haven't heard it either run out and buy the album or stream it.
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I recently saw two black operas by Terence Blanchard. One was about Emile Griffith a gay boxer in the fifties who killed in the ring an openent who taunted him about being gay.
The second was about Charles Blow a gay writer who I used to see on CNN all the time.
The score from the Charles Blow opera, Fire Shut Up in My Bones was rivetting. So was the score about Emile Griffith, called Champion. Here's a snippet of Champion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk8aQVVbgEs
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@frogman
Don't know if I've heard Berlioz's Requiem. I'll look for it.
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@frogman
I've never been to the Met. I pretty much only see what's put on in Los Angeles. The few times I've been to New York, my wife decides on what we see, and it's usually a popular musical. Although, I did see Twyla Tharp at the Kennedy Center in the 70s. My wife was a big fan. They danced to Supertramp and it was a fantastic show.
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@asvjerry
I’m posting a youtube video of Baryshnikov dancing Twyla Tharp. Her brilliance can be seen in the unusual, hesitating, stagger-steps, and sexual moves he makes. Also her humor which is often about the sexes. If you don’t like this, then you truly don’t like Twyla Tharp. I was lucky enough to meet her one day. My wife and I had gone to see her company dance at UCLA and she was sitting behind us. We struck up a conversation and she was absolutely down to earth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_aEbEqpLdc
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@saugertiesbob
I don't really have to think a lot about what to post. My problem is also that I don't have a ton of time, but I can't converse about this subject with anyone else. My wife's eyes would be rolling at my first sentence. And I really enjoy talking about music.
As far as coming up with a subject, for me this forum is a conversation. There are so many triggers for me to react to, and I have many ideas that I don't have time to post. So, thinking about what to post doesn't take much time. But I'm a conversationalist, and I never run out of ideas during a conversation. So, it's all kind of natural for me. Plus I have been listening to music for well over sixty years so I have a lot of information stored on the hard drive (or cloud?).
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@richardbrand
I had season tickets to the L.A. opera for twelve years. When I listen to operas, I've seen them produced once or twice. I must say, though, that seeing these operas was invaluable. I couldn't listen to Puccini operas until I saw them on stage. And Puccini has to be one of the easiest opera composers to listen to. The same with Mozart. Now I can see the production in my mind and happily listen to a recording. BTW, Igmar Bergman made a wonderful documentary film about Mozart's Magic Flute. If you haven't seen it, it is well worth watching.
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@mahgister
I had a long session with chatgbt about developing a physics that might have been seen through a feminine lens, rather than our very masculine physics. I had the questions and chatgbt knew quantum physics pretty well. Together, we put together a very interesting "feminine" physics. Space is the primary element from which matter and energy are born. Anyway, there are pages and pages. I very much enjoyed that rleationship with AI.
@stuartk
I was listening to some great composer (Zuben Mehta?) being interviewed. When he was asked what piece of music he would like played at his funeral, he said, "Schubert's String Quintet in C" (D. 956, Op.Posth 163). I think this might be Schubert's deepest and most spiritual piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0GOv95iDf0
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@mahgister
My basic thesis: Men developed physics, from the Greeks through modern quantum physics. How can it not have a male lens? Some highlights you might not agree with, nor would most physicists, but you must admit it's an intelligent argument:
1. Order vs. Process
- Traditional physics (masculine-coded): Prioritizes laws, permanence, universal invariants. The universe is a machine with predictable gears.
- Feminine-informed physics: Emphasizes process and becoming over static laws. The universe is not a clock but a womb — continuously birthing new structures through cycles of emergence and dissolution.
2. Entropy and Creation
- Traditional physics: Entropy = inevitable decay, order → disorder.
- Feminine-informed physics: Entropy = compost. Decay is not just loss but the fertile medium for new creation. Dissolution is honored as part of a regenerative cycle.
3. Reductionism vs. Holism
- Traditional physics: Break systems down to smallest units (atoms, particles, strings). Knowledge comes from isolating parts.
- Feminine-informed physics: Sees wholes as irreducible. Patterns, webs, and relationships matter as much as particles. Complexity is not “mess” but the creative weave of existence.
4. Time
- Traditional physics: Linear time, arrow of progress, measurable units.
- Feminine-informed physics: Cyclical and rhythmic time. Seasons, oscillations, feedback loops, birth-death-renewal. Physics would stress recurrence and resonance as much as linear progression.
5. Metaphors
- Traditional physics: Nature as a mechanism to be controlled (“mastering nature,” “laws,” “fundamental building blocks”).
- Feminine-informed physics: Nature as a living field, a womb, a flow. Physics would favor metaphors of weaving, gestation, dance, or symphony.
6. Examples of “Feminine Physics” Already Emerging
- Complexity & Systems Theory: Life and order emerge out of chaos through self-organization.
- Quantum Field Theory: Reality is not little billiard balls but an underlying field that “gives birth” to particles.
- Ecological physics: Seeing energy flows through ecosystems as cycles, not linear exploitations.
- Information & Entropy: Information is not just abstract bits but a generative principle that shapes matter into meaning.
7. The Synthesis
A feminine-informed physics wouldn’t discard equations or rigor. It would add another dimension:
- Laws are not just constraints but also gestures of creativity.
- Disorder is not the enemy of order but the partner that makes creation possible.
- Matter is not inert; it is pregnant with potential.
- The universe is less like a machine and more like a cosmic womb, endlessly birthing patterns through the interplay of chaos and form.
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@stuartk
I knew that's what you were talking about. I was trying to broaden that out, because I think that spiritual fervor is in so many types of music. It usually comes from people who have been repressed, though. Brazil had slavery. The Gypsies have been repressed in many societies and their music is known to have a fervor. (I don't know if it's religious, though.) I would like to draw the line all the way back to people living in caves, but I can't. Like Bill Mahr--"I can't prove it, but I know it's true."
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@stuartk
No, I don't think you missed anything. I just have this interest in the ontology of music that most people don't share. For good reason. It's impossible to know. It's just guessing.
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I'm listening to Berlioz's Requiem and liking it a lot.
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@stuartk
I’m almost positive you’ve heard of him, but for those who haven’t, here’s a taste of John Fahey. I went to several of his concerts in which he was all alone, like here, playing the guitar in what I take to be a classical or at least semi-classical style. It looks like he’s holding the guitar on his right leg like they do playing classical music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReW9uUYm-DA
And here's Jagger singing that same blues tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=humDgJ-SmHI
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@mahgister
I will focus on an example to try to discuss "spiritual" music versus "genius" music. I don't think there will be much argument if I say that Mozart was a genius. Like a great jazz master, he was known to sit at the piano and riff for long periods, many bars of music. His music set up a musical premise, and he was able to take that premise and view it from all sides, right-side up and upsidedown, and always be able to keep his balance in order to resolve that premise, and it delighted his audiences.
Yet I have heard Mozart live and have been bored. It seems too glib. Too much intellect. When we get to Mozart's later music, however, it begins to change, with the culmination of his Requiem Mass, which I think is deeply spiritual. His later piano concertos also have a depth that is lacking in his earlier music. So, I think I can say that Mozart went through a spiritual transformation as he got closer to death. And I don't think it was strictly Christian. He began to feel the essence of music. Music can delight our minds or move us on a deeper emotional/spiritual level, or with the greatest masters like Bach it can do both.
What do I mean by the essence of music? Why do humans enjoy music? Why did the ancients make music? Instruments have been found over 40,000 years old, and almost certainly older instruments made of wood were destroyed by time. Why would the ancients have taken the time and effort for music when food and shelter were far more important to our survival?
There was something inside the earliest humanity that could only have been expressed through music and other arts, and humanity was obsessed with expressing whatever that was. For so many reasons, especially humanity's early obsession with the sky and stars, I belive that humanity felt connected to the univese. And music was a call to all existence that we too belonged. And that to me is spirituality.
Most music is ego bound. The musician wants to say, "Look at me! I exist!" And by their dazzling intelligence we recognize these masters. But other musicians who are more deeply spiritual I think are saying, "we--all of humanity--belong." We belong to the world in which we live and take sustenance, and we belong to the entire universe.
To me and perhaps you, the feeling of "we belong" is a more potent message than "look at my dazzling intelligence." It can be fun and envigorating to be dazzled by another human intelligence, but it is a much deeper and more satisfying connection to be wise enough to tap into the spiritual message, "We belong."
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@stuartk
I've also heard Kottke and liked him. Today I was playing Jorma Kaukonen. I enjoyed him. Is that the style of guitar that you play?
I forgot that "Poor Boy" was on "Beggar's Banquet." I thought of Jagger when I heard the song played on guitar. I am always amazed at what a good Blues singer he is. Of course, he's a great singer in general, IMHO.
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@larsman
I went to a number of John Fahey concerts in Berkeley. He must have settled there for a while. They were engrossing, and I still have my beat-up John Fahey album from the sixties. In terms of one guitar engrossing an audience, perhaps classical guitar is the only other thing that will do it. And at the top of my list is the Villa Lobos Preludes. They are as deep and dark and haunting as a poem by Lorca. One's from Spain and the other's from Brazil, I know, but in my mind they share the same duende--darkness of the soul.
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@larsman
My wife grew up in Oakland and attended Berkeley, too, only four years behind me. We wouldn't have gotten on then. I was a motorcycle-riding screw-off. I literarly dropped out of my junior year just before finals without telling anyone. I took my mother's money for school and went off to Europe and parts east. I got very sick with hepititas, but it was worth it. I learned a lot on that trip.
I was around the Bay Area for five or six years. My sister still has a house in Berkeley. And my wife and I visited often when her parents were alive. We had dreamed of moving to San Francisco, but we've pretty much been priced out of the market. Besides, I like the warmth of Southern Calif.
Do you go to the opera or symphonies or any other music up there?
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@mahgister
I must admit that spirituality in music is difficult to talk about. Especially from my point of view because I see religions as something that get in the way. But first, of course, the composer must have a depth of feeling and spiritual connection. If that is the case, then any metaphors can be used as a lattice on which spiritual music can be strung.
IMHO, however, religions are misogynistic. Just look at this quote from the Bible:
*“To the woman he said,
‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
*yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.’”
This misogyny can be seen in many other aspects of religion. The Jews were told by their God to take the Holy Land by force, killing everyone who lived there. The "other" was already named in the Bible.The Quran was also about holy lands and war. And if you look at very religious Jews and Muslims, as well as Christians, women are still considered beneath men.
Let's add one more thing that in my mind interferes with what I call "spirituality." God made man (not women) stewards over the earth, and there was a hierarchy. God, the Creator, who was outside of the universe and his creation, counted on men who were made in His image to rule the earth wisely. Big mistake, I think.
In the Adam and Eve section of the Bible, Eve is tempted by what used to be the symbols of the Goddess religions. Namely, the tree, in which carvings of godesses can be seen sitting at the tree top. And the serpent whom the goddess held in her hand. The serpent was a symbol of renewal because it shed its skin each year.
Of course the ancients thought of woman as creator, because that was all they had ever seen. Babies came from mothers. And their goddesses were pregnant women rather than nubile young virgins.
But the goddess as creator was not outside the universe. She was part of her creation. She created it by being part of it. When women dug in the earth they could feel the goddess. She was part of the clothes they wore. And now we get to the part about belonging.
Of course people felt as though they belonged in this perspective of the religious order. People adorned their bodies, played music, and danced, their goddess was with them, not looking down from outside their universe.
The Christian God is said to have to "think" of the universe every moment or else it will disappear. That is called "God's Grace." The goddess exists because the universe exists and the universe exists because she does. Which weaves spirituality throughout our very existence. And again, that is what I am taling about when I say "we belong," rather than writing music to Jesus or Mary or God, we write it to ourselves.
Since I know you like philosophy, I will take you a step further. I believe that the fact that men created science without female input (until the late 20th century) has left holes in our scientific theories. Entropy, for example, predicts the universe will dissapate into white noise, all particles spread out so thinly they will never again form galaxies, solar systems, planets, and life.
Yet the universe is about 14 billion years old, according to these same scientists, and we have seen nothing but the opposite of entropy. Everything continues to become more and more ordered, new galaxies being created all the time. Where is entropy on a macro scale?
I think that science was created with "masculine principles," which is our current stadard model. What was left out was the "Feminine Creative Spirit" which causes new forms that become galaxies, solar systems, and life. New scientific theories of fractals can tie life to universal mathematic formulas. I believe that the universe was programmed for life, but to infer that is to intrude god into science. And science has been trying to divorce itself from the church for hundreds of years. But I'm not talking about the church. I'm talking about science itself. And you can read real, famous physicists like Paul Davies from whom I got these theories.
So, complicated as it is, hopefully I have set up a structure for spiritual music that is different than the religions we normally think of. As I read the book you suggested on the origins of thought, I am looking for some alignment with my thought.
So, how does one reach that spirituality today within our given paradigm? I think a musical creator mus feel it, not on the rational level that religions are taught. Not from dogma, but from spirituality which exists in feelings, not words. And that's why music is so perfect to contain that spirituality. Music, for the most part, is not about words. It is expressed feelings. And I agree with you. When words are part of music, I don't want to know what they say. I want to hear them as instruments, part of the whole.
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@mahgister
I too am talking about balance. And my point, which I have been researching for many years, is that we live in imbalance. Patriarchy. It cannot be denied. And so, yes, we must find balance. Some people have found balance even in our imbalanced world. But that does not mean that the world is balanced. Just look at it. Can you call our world a balanced world? Through history we see that people once lived differently. If you look up the dig at Catalhuyuk, Turkey, you will find a city that had no defensive walls. No weapons were found. Their "religion" had feminine and masculine deities. It is evidence that once humanity lived in a more balanced world. What I am doing is recognizing the imbalance of our world.
I believe through my research that in a world in which there is no thumb on the scale of balance and imbalance, women are very strong. They were naturally the first shamans because they had insight that men did not have. They still do, but we dismiss it and squash it.
The fact that there are psychopathic, sociopathic women proves nothing. Again, from research I have done, psychopaths are born with minds wired differently. Sociopaths look like psychopaths but they were not born that way. But those exceptions do not contradict what I am saying. Look at history, look at the way we live today. And yes women have also been infected by our societies. But I see much more hope and promise in them than in men.
A very long topic, and I am writing a book about my beliefs. There is much, too much information for this forum.
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@mahgister @simonmoon @stuartk
What I am hearing you say, @mahgister, is that you like a kind of soul wrenching depth in performances. If that is true, and I'm not saying it is, my response would be that I like Dostoevsky but I also like to read other authors who provide lighter fare. Of course, most novels today are written and read by women. Jane Austen is still huge.
But probably a more important point, directly pertinent to music, is how most performances of music are judged. Is the artist saying what the composer intended? Guess what? In the case of Debussy we don't have to guess. I am posting a piano roll of Debussy playing Debussy. He is not as lyrical (let's say mass appeal) as Entremont, nor as "expressive" as Moravec. I would call him definitive: "It is my music and this is the way it should be played!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3NX_TrxfVk
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@larsman
To me the Bible is about everything that went wrong after the suppression of women. I've read a lot of history outside the Bible, which is not strictly history, to come to that conclusion.
On the music front, It sounds like you're not a classical music guy. I'll try you on something else. This is a song written by Antonio Carlos Jobim, one of 20th century's greatest compsers, IMHO. Patricia Barber sings and also plays the piano. I think her jazz piano is excellent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHLJ2ITsnJQ
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@mahgister
I think we’ve gone far astray of music. If you lived close by I’d love to meet you in a coffee shop or whatever and discuss all of this. I feel bad, however, dominating this thread on music with philosophy. And I blame myself. I must not fall into the trap of talking about my overall beliefs again. I will keep my thoughts to music.
@stuartk @larsman
I am posting Schubert’s Piano Sonata 960. It is one of his most beautiful and captivating sonatas. Schubert died at 31. He left an amazing legacy for so few years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPE-Iyj1Ago
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@mahgister
I happen to agree with you that great musicians can find expression in compositions that the composer was not aware of. But I thought I'd throw out Debussy's interpretation as a baseline.
I enjoyed Furtwangler's interpretation of Schumann's 4th. I have it recorded by George Szell who is a great conductor, but not so great on Schumann's 4th. I think all conductors and musicians excel on certain pieces. I also heard it played at Disney Hall and did not like it at all. I think it was an original version by Schumann without the orchestration help of Brahms. Schumann admitted that he did not understand the orchestra like Beethoven, Brahms and others, and the second versions of his symphonies are far more interesting in the color they get from the orchestra.
I do not know if you have heard of Igor Levit, a young-ish pianist who I think gets extremely deeply into compositions. Here is a smple of him playing the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. I have never heard it played like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EGdL_P2iXE
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@stuartk
If you get a chance, you might listen to Uchida playing Scuberts Impromptus, 899 is the most beautiful, but they're both beautiful. Uchida goes for nuance over power. I listened to Brendel playing them this morning because he died last month. He also goes for nuance. I'd post it on youtube but the only have her playing one movement at a time.
Religion is filled with dogma, much of it I don't like. Spirituality has no dogma. It is simply a person getting in touch with their connection to the universe, or god, or goddess, or whatever word we want to put on it. In writing @mahgister I discovered the thought "I belong" or "we belong." I'll have to mull over which works better.
@mahgister
I was listening to Monteverdi yesterday. I didn't like his madigrals from book 8 but I did like a long piece very much. I think it was something about the creation.
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@stuartk
I have that disk of Uchida playing Debussy’s Etudes, and so far I haven’t been able to get into them. They have no lyrical quality I can hang onto. Perhaps they’re too complex for me. I love all other piano music by him that I’ve heard, and I’ve heard a lot. I have a lot of people playing him. My favorite is an old album of Phillipe Entremont playing various pieces. Entremont is probably not an "exacting" interpreter because he never gets mentioned in online posts. He is very lyrical, and even if he is a bit schmultzy, I like him. I particlarly like Debussy’s Images, both for the piano and orchestra.
As far as spirituality goes, I think I’m going to be on an island by myself. From various pieces of research which do not directly relate to one another, I am piecing together a spirituality around the feminine and masculine. I do not consider myself a particularly spiritual person, but perhaps I’m not evaluating myself correctly.
In the youtube post below, there is a picture of the album I like with Entremont playing "Claire de Lune."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRBVSgJUFjg
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@mahgister
I will continue to listen to more Monteverdi. What book of his madrigals do you like the best?
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@stuartk
I will look for Bavouzet on Qobuz. I didn't think that you were espousing anything. It is almost impossible for me to explain what I now see. In the book @mahgister told me about, the author talks about perspectives which he sees through art. For example, he says that people could not see depth perspective until the Renaissance with Leonardo and others. I am viewing the world through a perspective that others do not see and find hard to accept. So, I have a big job on my hands.
@mahgister
I will look for those recordings of Monteverdi on Qobuz.
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@stuartk
I've been listening to Bavouzet play Debussy. I like him a lot. I had not heard of him when I was in my Debussy collecting days. He's as good as anyone else I've heard.
I'm posting Bartoks's Piano Concerto #3. There were a lot of choices, but I took an old one: Geza Anda and Frenec Fricsay. I have them playing a number of pieces together because I bought a box set of Frenec Fricsay who is an excellent conductor, but a bit early for our time. I wanted to see if you could bend your ear to Bartok.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNcycJkofRg
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@frogman
Thank you for that article on interpreting composers. I have a box set of Stravinsky conducting his three ballets. I have heard other interpretations that I like better. Being a great composer does not make one a great conductor which has not only to do with interpretation but the ability to convey to the orchestra that interpretation.
@mahgister
I have to stop reading "Ever-Present Origin." We can't discuss it here. Maybe you can try a PM and I might get an email to respond to. Briefly, when the author began talking about the awakening of the soul in "archaic man," he just lost me. First, he did not define what he means by soul. And secondly, If there is a soul, I believe it existed long before Homos sapiens. To me, his outlook is very 1966. So much thought has happened since then. Again, if you want to discuss further, try to PM me. Thanks.
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@stuartk
Yes, well, we're all different people, and that's a good thing. I will take issue, however, with "keeping up with trends." I wouldn't say that you introducing me to Wayne Shorter was keeping up with a trend. But I do like to see what's going on around me. When I go to get my hair cut and I see all these women wearing clothes to reveal their tattoos, I think back to when I first came to this salon for a haircut and how different people looked then. I think it's partly because I'm a writer that I'm always trying to notice and hear new things. Especially because I'm now writing about the near future. Also, I play a lot of LPs, and I like to hear how well each recording was digitalized, and you can't fully hear that on Spotify. If an album I like is really badly digitalized, I'll buy the record. Because of streaming, I no longer need to buy CDs..
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For those who have said they do not enjoy Beethoven, I am posting his most lyrical symphony, his 6th, Pastorale. The conductor is Bruno Walter who had conducted this symphony many times. This recording, however, was done when he was 80, and it is slow and musical. I think it is the most purchased album of Beethoven's 6th. I loved it the minute I heared it. If you go to classical music forums, it is almost always included as one of the best recordings of Beethoven's 6th. I hope you enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIjiKZR0BSs
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@mahgister @frogman
As I have told you, I have little formal education in music. It seems to me, however, that a number of "modern" conductors change the timing of music to enhance its lyricism and power. By lengthening some notes and shortening others, as well as silences between notes, they find interpretations that are often more "romantic."
Although there are composers like Carlos Klieber (recognized by other conductors as perhaps the best conductor of the 20th century) who stick to the score with rigorous timing, but somehow enhance a piece of music to its utmost. Kleiber's recording of Beethoven's Fifth is a good example. His timing seems to my ear to be exacting, yet you cannot find a classical forum that does not list him as one of the best, if not the best, conductor of Beethoven's Fifth. I have also found this to be true of Karl Bohm. I have a record set of him conducting Mozart's later symphonies and also Beethoven's 6th. He is the only conductor whose 6th I enjoy as much as Bruno Walter's.
I have read that different historical periods produce different types of musical interpretations. I have seen a number of performances, as well as owning a number of recordings, by musicians who "deconstruct" a musical score and reconstruct it with very "modern" interpretations. I have heard Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla, (whom I believe will be one of the 21st centuries great conductors) tear apart Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto and produce something which I wouldn't have recognized, at least in some passages.
I have a boxed set of Fazil Say playing Mozart's piano concertos and he changes timing and dynamics in drastic ways which to my ear convey the "story" that I think @mahgister was talking about.
Hopefully @frogman will weigh in.
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@frogman
Thank you for your input. It really puts things in perspective. The two conductors I know best are Essa-Pekka Salonen and Gustavo Dudamel, both of whom have been music directors and principle conductors of the L.A. Phil. They are quite different, but I like them both.
When Dudamel first arrived in L.A., everygody was excited. My first impressions were that he had tremendous enthusiasm and vigor. In comparison, Salonen seemed to have more control. As Dudamel has been with the L.A. Phil longer, I am beginning to hear the inner color he develops. When he conducted The Firebird (entire ballet), with which I was very familiar, I could really hear his control over all the instruments. He still produced a vigorous Firebird, but the tonal color and dynamic detail were also obvious to me. Because I do not play a musical instrument, and I have not studied music theory, it takes a long time for my ear to pick up on things like that. Thanks again.
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@stuartk
Yes it is available as a standard CD. If you can play SACD, I think it's also available.
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@mahgister
"I will go for his Strauss and his Rachmaninoff..."
I don’t know if you are talking about Bruno Walter. I think he is best known for Wagner and Mahler. It is only on Beethoven’s 6th for which he is famous, and only his latter performance at 80. I have a collection of him playing all of Beethoven’s symphonies prior to stereo. Perhaps made in the early fifties. As I said earlier, Carlos Kleiber is almost undisputed on Beethoven’s 5th. I will paste the youtube. I think, however, he also is first rate on Beethoven’s 7th. I have a bunch of Beethoven symphony collections people gave me when they got rid of their vinyl collections. It’s almost confusing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNpyRBVTavQ
I am listening to Ivan Moravec playing Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto. Not like anything I've heard before. Very impressive.
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@mahgister @stuartk
I understand how youthful passions stay with us. And Sofronitsky definitely captures the passions of Scriabin. I'm not always into that kind of passion, though. For me, sometimes music is just about beauty. And that's a huge word, I know. It's definition could almost be that we all know it when we see it.
I'm posting Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto, which I think is like a perfectly cut diamond. You'll notice the album cover is from a movie from the sixties. It was about two beautiful people who tried to leave society, and, of course, like Romeo and Juliet found this to be impossible. I have worn out this album several times and have had to repurchase a mint copy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw
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To change the topic entirely, I am not a huge Dylan fan. With all the great poets in the world, I didn't think he deserved the Nobel Prize in Literature. I do have a lot of his albums and play them from time to time. I am probably a bigger Judy Collins fan. I have worn out a few of her albums and had to look for mint copies on the used market. So, I'm posting Judy Collins singing "Just Like Tom Thumb Bllues," one of my favorite cuts. You'll see th album cover on my post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcCcA6O6QLU
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@stuartk
I'm listening to Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil." It is beautifully recorded on Qobuz. Otherwise I would have bought the album. Thanks for the tip.
Dylan might have received the Nobel Prize for Literature. I can't remember. I know what you're saying about song writing being different than poetry, but some song writers are much more poetic than others. Probably Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell go on the top of my list for poetics. Also Paul Simon. I think the best poem/song Dylan ever wrote was "All Along the Watchtower." It works like a poem with an open ending to draw the reader in, and have them go back and pay more attention to what led up to the open ending.
I'm not comparing Judy Collins singing to Bob Dylan's writing. I just think that's the best version of "Tom Thumb's Blues" I've ever heard. Did you catch Ry Cooder's guitar? He's unmistakeable. There are a few musicians I can always tell. Stevie Wonder's harmonica. In jazz, of course, Coltrane's sax and Miles Davis' trumpet. Stan Getz and Chet Baker. I don't think we ever talked about Paul Desmond and the west coast jazz players on the jazz forum. I am a fan.
Back to Bob Dylan. I had some musician friends when I was at Berkeley and I remember one, David Lieberman, excitedly playing "Hey Mister Tamborine Man" for me. He had never heard anything like it. Although, I don't know if you could say a new type of song writing wouldn't have happened without Dylan. Newton and Leibniz discovered calculus at the same time. To me that proves that when something is ready to happen, it will. But, yes, let's give Dylan credit. The biggest problem I have with him is the misogyny in his songs. Women often take a bad rap. And on that topic of gender, I must admit that "Mr. Jones" was brilliantly filled with inference.
But if any song writer should have gotten the Nobel Prize for Literature, I think it should have been Leonard Cohen, who was a poet as well as song writer. I don't think he was influenced by Dylan, but having Dylan open up the field for new types of music probably helped him. I heard Dylan interviewed and he compared himself to Paul Simon. He said he couldn't write melodies like Simon. He wrote words and put them on old tunes. I don't know if that's always true, but it is true a lot of the time.
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@mahgister
Before I say anything, you must afford me the right to my opinion. I am a person with perhaps more complicated opinions than others. Bob Dylan is about six years older than I am, but we're basically of the same generation even though I am considered a Baby Boomer and he of the Silent Generation. He wasn't at all silent, I think we can all agree on that.
When I am afforded extra, kind of "inside" information about celebrities, I often make judgements. I live in L.A. and I often receive this kind of information. From what I have heard, Dylan is a sad person. Although he has been with quite a few women (as have I) and fathered children (not I), he seems to be pretty much alone. He has never developed familial ties.
The roots of Dylan's early relations with women are well defined in the recent film about him, "A Complete Unknown." The film pretty much ends with one of the women he was with (Joan Baez?) flipping him off. The film portrays him as a person who is more interested in himself than anyone else. I think his later years have shown him to be a kind of recluse.
How has all of this affected his music? His music about social matters are strong and don't seem to be affected. His music about personal matters, however, do seem to be affected by this. Just listen to how he writes about women. Kind of Madonna/whore syndrome. Does this make him less of a good poet. Yes. I say yes.
Leonard Cohen also had complicated relationships with women, but his songs are so nuanced on the matter. Leonard Cohen writes about relationships in so much more of a loving way than Dylan. He sees himself as an actor, whereas Dylan pretty much sees himself as a victim. I'm sorry. I'm a poet and I listen to lyrics.
In regards to his stance on social matters, I think Dylan was important. But so were other singers who influenced him. Woody Guthrie and Pete Seager. Probably Hank Williams. So to summarize, as a social commenter, Dylan was important and strong, although there was a lineage behind him. As a writer of personal matters, Dylan was pretty weak, especially compared to songwriters around him like Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell, who were able to see themselves in their writing.
Bob Dylan's poetics was often pretty lazy. He'd throw in an extra word not used in conversaton to complete an iamb. (Unstressed, stressed.) It was not really noticed. People didn't care about it because his social songs were so new and strong. Although he has a witchy woman in "Tom Thumb Blues," he also has strong and beautiful imagery. In "Maggie's Farm" he is the victim of a woman. On one of my favorite albums (I have almost all of his work on vinyl) "Nashville Skyline," women are idealized. But the music is lovely and there is always Johnny Cash.
I understand that probably a lot of writers and poets who have been awarded the Nobel have lived lonely, screwed-up lives, but I don't know about them, and I do know something about Bob Dylan.
On the other hand, Leonard Cohen lived a somewhat magical life. He spent years in a Buddhist monestary trying to figure himself out as he got older. People loved him and he loved others, even those he had to leave.
Joni Mitchell was probably more self-aware in her songs than anyone. I listen to the lyrics. In the future I will post songs that I think are well wrought, with strong lyrics. I admit that "Tom Thumb Blues" is one of those songs. The lyrics stand up and are complex. But so many of Bob Dylan's songs don't stand up so well. And in very few, if any, is he self-aware.
So, I am not a friend or confidant of Bob Dylan and I may be totally wrong in my judgement. Some people might say I'm wrong to judge at all. Yet, I do. And that's me.
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I am posting a song by Leonard Cohen which I think is as close to poetry as a song can get. As you listen to the lyrics, I suggest that you not think about what it means. Poetry is the art of bypassing the logical mind which stands in the way of much deep understanding. Rather, just feel the lines and the story they tell. No need to think about what it means. If you are moved by it, then that is enough. The song is "Joan of Arc" and it is sung by Judy Collins off the same album as "Tom Thumb Blues."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjxPg8DXiqk
Here is one more rather complex song by Leonard Cohen off the same Judy Collins album. I think these are two of his best songs. I think that's part of the reason Judy Collins was so famous--she chose great material hot off the presses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE6e9n1HuuM
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@mahgister
I liked all the songs you posted, but I was most moved by the first one by Masha Vahdat. It was beautiful. The last one with shifting pictures of Shakti, I wish I could understand the lyrics. I found those images of her quite intriguing.
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@mahgister
I couldn’t get into his music. I think I’d have to be in the right mood. I’ve been writing a lot and took a break to listen. Although, it is also true that my ear has been exposed to mostly European and American music, and I need to really concentrate to listen to music from other genres.
@stuartk
I don’t know if you’re familiar with Holst’s "The Planets." I think it’s a good piece of music for people to get into classical music. Some parts are absolutely beautiful. I think the part about Venus is one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isic2Z2e2xs
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I have an old CD conducted by Charles Dutoit of the Orchestre de Montreal. I like it. But if you want to take a few minutes, you can look up "best recording of Holst The Planets" and see what comes up. When I play it again I'll look for a different recording just because I like to hear how different conductors handle it. I do see my recording listed on Qobuz, though. Because I've met Simon Rattle and he's considered a first-rate conductor, I'd probably try him. But looking up other people's opinions can be fun if you have time. Enjoy!
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@mahgister
I don't know if you watch TV and if so if you watch cable shows. There is a French show called Astrid about a woman on the spectrum who loves Bach's Art of the Fugue. After watching that show, I dug through my records, many of which I have forgotten I own, and found Zoltan Kocsis playing Art of the Fugue. I have been listening to it for a while now. I will have to compare it to some of the others you have suggested.
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@srinisr
I will stream Suzuki tomorrow. The cello deserves speakers that go down below 80Hz. The youtube sample sounded excellent, though.
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