Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...
I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold. Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.
I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology. I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.
Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view. Listen to the following three amplifier brands:
If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can. You'll be just as happy. However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly. I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty. I get that, and I've heard that. However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.
If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself. Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself. Are you someone who can't hear a difference? Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care? That's fine. Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value.
To your own self and your own ears be true. And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it. In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices.
Dear @holmz : I have an audio friend that own the Halcro DM-58 amps, I will contact him to share the idea to listen in his system against the Benchmark or Divialet problem is to find out these last amps. Anyway, your points in the subject were welcomed for me including the last one: "" Usually it is measured in the frequency domain... rather than statistically.
R. |
Dear @holmz : You posted: " When they have zero distortion, then by definition they will sound the same." "" It is getting down towards the theory side of “close to zero” distortion. "" I took both statements to post that example of 4 amps with really " near " closer to the Zero distortion " ideal "/target. I mean that in my example I took the assumption that all four really have zero distortion and from there came my questions I posted. If those amps have " zero distortion " and are running inside its operational specs and obviously with speakers the amps can handle then according with what you and other gentleman posted in theory those amps will sounds the same. I doubt that could happen till we listen to it. " I am leaning more towards accuracy in signal quality. " that's good and critical because with out system accuracy we will far away of the recording. "" I am more leaning toward fidelity over a musical flavour. "" of course because in that way you will be near to the recording.
R.
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Dear @holmz : What you and other technical oriented gentlemans posted here means that if we take the Sansui, the Halcro, the Benchmark and Devialet amps and we listen to all in the same system and even that those four amps are way different whole designs using way different active/passive parts/board material/layout and the like we will listen no difference in the room/system quality performance. Rigth? I know that no one has Zero distortions but all are just really near of that. Now and accepting that " theory and obviously with out been/experienced in a test like what I mentioned comes/came to my mind this question: it's that " fact " what we MUSIC lovers and audiophiles are looking for or what need we to be in an audio system true " heaven "? ? ? !!! I think that exist several questions or even maybe more questions than answers around that " zero distortions " units behavior and those questions could be not necessarily technical oriented even that we can't " close " our eyes if exist clear and precise technical evidences/tests. That question in other way: could any one of us imagine or think think how will be the high-end on each of us home systems with electronics that performs the same. Advantages or disadvantages? and what could happen with all electronic items manufacturers? Yours point of view certainly are welcomed . holmz and the OP ? R. |
Dear @holmz : Nothing really new down there. Remember the vintage Sansui japanese electronics manufacturer ( I owned before Luxman c-5000 ).:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/super-feedforward-system.shtml https://audio-database.com/SANSUI/amp/au-d707f-e.html http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/sansui-au-d11-332.html https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sansui/products.shtml One of those papers says technology came from 1928. I remember that I like the Sansui electronics ( I left Pioneer for Sansui. ) but nothing more than that. Remember the Halcro DM58?. Here some of its specs: Solid-state monoblock power amplifier, with active power-factor correction. Inputs: 1 unbalanced, 1 balanced. Output power: >200W into 8 ohms (23dBW), >350W into 4 ohms (22.4dBW). Distortion: at full power output, all harmonic distortion orders <-114dB up to 20kHz (<4000 parts per billion or <0.0004%). THD: <-128dB at 1kHz, or <400 ppb. Intermodulation products: all <-114dB relative to power output """
R.
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@erik_squires : I know that over time bipolars, fet, mosfets, resistors, capacitors improved in several ways. Nothing is steady in audio and especially with manufacturer suppliers. All devices improvesd? maybe not but many did it. I look your post as trying to argue or trying to tall me I’m wrong. In my posts I posted: I can be wrong. So no problem in this issue, fine with me.
But reality exist: today electronics are and have higher resolution than in the past and not only because past electronics designs were manufactured with way different targets than today high-end units but because the today improved part devices . At any period of time exist good, excellent and average designs. I can see in your vitual Agon system that you use today " magic " caps. Why's that? Btw, I owned the Luxman C5000 ( I neme it because you own Luxman. ) that in its time was a very good unit but can't compare with today units.
Anyway, measurements are an excellent tool to help audiophiles to choose the " best " alternative to match their systems’s targets and self priorities.
R. |
Dear @holmz : I’m not talking of theory as you and other gentlemans but about what we live day by day and what we listen through our room/systems.
The true is that does not exist measurements that can explain with certainty why we like what we are listening . In theory everything could be measured but in the audio real life those measurements does not exist and if exist any then any of you that like so much the theory just shows one real example with tests/facts: not theory.
Zero distortion? in which galaxy?, I’m not talking of " illusions " but real life.
If some of you can’t prove with real facts what you are posting then is better to take away that " scientific " attitude and come back to the " land " come back to live your real life.
@erik_squires posted: " To your own self and your own ears/brain be true, " Today we listen and experience what we have we can’t listen to " illusions " or hypothesis.
It’s true that in the same quality range of design several amps with more or less similar measurements will sound alike but never the same. I think that we have to use our common sense at the end science came and comes by the common sense those gentlemans used to their results. I think and said several times that to be truer or nearer to the recording we have to have every kind of developed distortions at minimum. Even that two different room/systems coul have distortions at minimum will not sound the same: different kind of distortions/colorations. I can know yet measures in a preamp/amp can tell us hw that units sounds for our brain. Could you or any one explain it with facts?
R. |
Dear @erik_squires : I know I arived late to your thread, an interesting one.
" And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it. " well that could be something " extreme ". In general audio improved through the years and today any one can listen " differences ", only a deaf can't hear.
" to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold. Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same. " In those vintage years electronics were designed and builded using the active and pasive devices that existed. Designers have not " hundred " of options about and along that the today high-end meaning was non-existent so de electronics designs were manufactured with way different targets than today units. In the other side the room treatment concepts was almost something new even for reviewers. Because of all those and several other reasons the systems were not high resolution ones and with this real limitation was not easy to find out quality differences.
I don't know today why ASR says " amps sounds the same " because I don't have the specific link where they attest about. But today it's almost imposible that 2 different manufacturer designs can sound the same. As I said audio improved through the years, today passive and active devices improved really over those vintage years and exist more options that in the past. In the other side normally each designer has his own whole targets on what he will design and build. The circuit layouts are not the same in those 2 different manufacturer electronics and not only that but not only that because a designer can choose smd passive devices instead true hole and the power supply design of those amps will be different too with different choosed parts even the input/output connectors and internal wiring came from different parts manufacturers.Heatsinks are different too and even the amp class operation or the global feedback levels. All those parameters/characteristics modulates each one amp quality performance and yes we can listen the differences no matters what because our system today has way higher resolution than in the past. Active/passive parts and design has its sound signature/coloration and this coloration is what we listen it. A few months ago I wanted to improve my external crossovers in the speakers and I posted a thread in Agon looking for help on capacitors: I was running V-caps and Soniccraft but already used Duelund/Mundorf/Jantzen/Audyn, Audicap, MIT/etc/etc suddenly I remembered that I have a lot of Wima caps that in the past I changed for " better " caps soI try the MKP10 and to my surprise it performed with higher quality levels, I finished using the FKP1 in combination with Kemet caps but I was using at the input of my monobloks ( cappacitor coupled. ) very expensive teflon cooper V-caps and I tested there the FKP1 and wonder what: outperforms the V-caps ! !Al these " unexpected ". Today if electronics are working inside its specs develops very low distortions and when today amps are developing high distortion levels that we can listen is because those amps are been overloaded are been out of its headroom. Today is extremely difficult that we can listen amp distortions because those amp designs are well designed and the designer know that his competition just does not do it, today manufacturers puts high care about. Again, if the amp/preamp is running inside its design specs we normally will not hear distortions or almost no distortions.
@glennewdick " are we even measuring the correct things for human hearing parameters? " Please re-read my last post because those kind of measurements you are asking for just does not exist and in my posts I try to explain about. Of course I can be wrong.
R.
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Dear @erik_squires : " but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value. " Specific in audio measurements were not developed to have a direct relationship to an specific sound reproduction characteristics. Measurements can't tell us which will be the sound quality level of " that " audio item. Today measurements helps for we can have an " idea " if " that " audio item could handle " my " speakers but certainly not how those speakers will sound paired with. Measurements can't do that because in audio MUSIC/sound individual perception/sensitivity we are really complex and exist to many parameters that has direct or indirect relationship with what we " like ", including each one room/system targets. We all have some first hand experiences that has not a " measurements " explanations. I experienced not one but more times that I was in audio " heaven " listening my system and with out change anything and listening the same source tracks next day at the same hour that " magic " just disappeared ! !. Many times in audio happens " unexpected things " that happens because those to many parameters that surround all what we hear. Our ears as ears per sé are not good enough to listen MUSIC the first problem is that are frequency limited fortunatelly we listen/hear through all our body and we have a brain that receives the electrical information from million of body sensors that pick-up the overall " sound ". But not only the sound information that is pick-up is what we are listening, exist something that has a direct and critical effects in what we are listening and that " something " is our " mood/emotions " at the time of listen sessions and till today does not exist measurements regarding those sensors and far away measurements on how affects our listening time " mood ". Our bones, sking, hair and all our senses detect/tell us minute changes in SPL, movement, faster/slow, temperature, distance and the like, even can detect when " some one " is looking directly to us. The frequency range of our body is really wider of what we could think even over gentlemans of 70 years old. We can " listen " from below 4hz-5hz to over 60khz. Even what we wear affects our " perception " of what we are listening. If we wear natural fabrics as cotton or wool against synthetic fibers as polyester and the like our sound perception changes. Any one can make a test ( I already did it ) and listen " naked " with no wear and you can listen the change for the better other that we don't feel confortable in naked fashion because we are not accustom to. Ouir brain/body is the best measurements laboratory over the world that unfortunatelly exist not yet scientific studies on the whole subject. Is to complex, even to create a mathematics model of it. What we like in audio has a direct relationship with our audio life experiences and MUSIC live events experiences , it's of what we are accustomed and accustom to. Of course that quality designs and excecution of that design of our room/systems audio items have a relationship too because is what we experienced through our audio life and what we today are listening to. There are important item specs that we have to take in count when we want to buy a new audio item: frequency range, THD, IMD, sensitivity, output level, headroom, overload level, accuracy, output/input impedance, , etc, etc. Specs can tell us, more or less, if an audio item could be a good match in our system but can't tell us the grade of quality improvement we will have till we listen it. Almost all of us can hear " differences " through item comparisons/evaluations/tests or change of electronics inside devices if we know what to look for. We need references, nothing can be at random our brain has in stock millions and millions of references when we are doing any kind of system evaluations that " modulate " what we like what we preffer. Two months ago I decided to change the power supply 24K capacitors in my Levinson monoblocks and I don't decided because the amplifiers been running with a " problem ". I decided because those monobloks have over 30 years that were manufactured, so I did not wait to change it when the amps showed a failure that could be " catastrophic ". I was not waiting for any improvement due that the amps were working truly fine. I ordered those four Vishay electrolytic caps ( same caps as the original ones. ) and made the change, obviously that after the caps change I wanted to listen and I did it and just from the first MUSIC note I heard a significant improvement that was truly unexpected. Good for my system and my MUSIC enjoyment. I have pother similar experiences and I could tell were and are learning experiences. Good that exit measuremenst and good that STPH magazine does it, always welcomed. As better, wider and higher measurements we have as better decisions we can take . The histories like the Carver ones are reference of nothing, we are in 2022 where many past/vintage " things " already changed several years ago.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
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