@mijostyn wrote:
I have never heard Jubalees but have a lot of experience with K horns. They do not image well as the drivers are not time aligned and the mid bass is colored which is euphoric for some people. It would be very interesting to digitally tri amp them and get rid of the group delays.
Indeed, that would bring out more of their potential.
I am guessing that the colored mid bass is due to the large, complicated enclosure. Large panels resonate as a function of size as related to panel thickness, the ratio. Think stringed musical instrument.
Relatively large they may be they’re actually too small as a bass to lower midrange horn (corner placement by virtue of extending the horn helps make it act as a horn lower down), which is only exacerbated by several horn path bends up to 180 degrees. Some compensation can be attempted here with a higher compression rate, i.e.: a smaller slot area in front of the woofer to aid upper range extension, but this in turn can create new issues related to upper bass irregularities and colorations due to horn path constriction and air velocity. Cabinet resonances are likely part of the problem as well, but I’d wager they’re really not at the core of the issues mentioned.
|
@mrdecibel wrote:
I am a horn lover / owner for 50+ years, but I do feel very large horn speakers ( like the Jubilee ) requires a greater distance between them and the listener, as my experience tells me. I cannot enjoy my ears feeling that they are inside the horns. I have heard many super large stage / pro / commercial speakers by Klipsch and others, and the greater distance between them and me, in almost all cases, was better...." to me ". Whatever makes you happy. I have said many times, each of us are different, in how we hear, how we listen, and how we determine what we like. My best, and ENJOY ! always, MrD.
To my ears: more than horn size (and segment use) per se wrt. required listening distance is the importance of the overall design specifics, like the distancing between the driver/horn elements, and not least how many of them there are. Very generally, and at least some things being equal, I’d say the bigger horn the less it sounds like a horn. To me it’s quite important for a horn to actually act like a horn in its frequency range, and this is about approximating proper size (as well as a suitable flare geometry) for the horn to "behave" well and maintain directivity control. Also about matching those directivity patterns at the cross-overs and further aid integration and coherency. A large Synergy horn with a summed multi-driver output into a single point source will gel perfectly at the LP at a very close distance. Of course splitting up the driver sections into individual large horns will create spacings between those sections and thus necessitate some distance (and delay fiddling) for them to cohere properly at the ears, but with fewer large radiation surface sections with matching directivity patterns this is less of an issue. And the perceived "ears feeling that they are inside the horns"-sensation to me is really about the specific horn geometry and the quality of the amps used. With a proper, large horn flare and highly resolving amps the sound won’t crawl into your ears - even fairly up close. What such a combo will provide is a relaxed presence, solidity of tone and visceral imprinting that I find wins out vs. a smaller, more compact horn implementation. But that’s just me :)
|
@ricevs wrote:
The Jubilee is time aligned in the electronic xover......so this is the only Klipsch done correctly
It is any horn speaker done correctly, and configured actively it is the way to go - fortunately an approach not exclusive to a Klipsch speaker.
no wonder the designer says he thinks the Jubilee is way, way better than anything before.....and you have the tweeter and mids coming from one place
Maintaining a point source from the lower mids on up is indeed the main takeaway. The Jubilee’s does so with the (re-branded?) Celestion Axi2050 without a crossover point in its region all the way up into the upper octave, though it does seem to need some attenuation up there. A coaxial, dual concentric diaphragm approach on the other hand from the likes of BMS (and, I guess, more a less copied by JBL for their version of it) would likely have a more (without needing attenuation) extended upper range with a smaller, dedicated diaphragm here, however necessitate a crossover point somewhere in the upper mids - while still being a point source. Then again the Axi2050 has the more extended, and less distorted lower range via its larger diaphragm meeting the bass horn, arguably the more important parameter in conjunction with the big K-402 horn, which is also more appropriately sized compared to its smaller Klipsch brethren.
Active config. for proper delay adjustment and better amp-driver control, larger horn size for more proper horn loading and directivity control, and maintaining a single point source in a vital frequency spectrum - that’s certainly Klipsch doing right by following physics and common sense here, kudos. While I haven’t yet heard the Jubilee’s and can’t comment on their sound, I do find their solution with a ported/horn-loaded combo approach in the bass horn (in want for more extension) somewhat conspicuous. Ideally I’d have gone with a classic front-loaded horn design (with the woofer mounted in a sealed chamber) and firing into as few, preferably only 90 degree bends as possible, while leaving the two lower octaves down to 20Hz to a dedicated pair of (tapped) horn subs. But then again that makes for more complexity and a less saleable package - decisions, and compromises.
|
@souljasmooth wrote:
I own the current version. Yes same horn, different driver. Woofers are ported into a horn. And comes with an active crossover.
Great. What amps are you using?
|
@souljasmooth wrote:
I bet it was the amps more than the room. I have Jubilees in a small room with excellent results. I have been playing around with different amps, and what a difference amps make on these speakers.
My assumption as well. As I’ve mentioned previously amp choice is vital with most any horn-based speaker, and can make a great difference wrt. the overall balance of sound and whether it’s perceived in-your-face or not.
However, strictly speaking whatever accounts for @willywonka’s Jubilee impressions at named exhibition last year is pure guessing, and let’s not forget that as there are different rooms, setups and choices of implementation, there are as well ears belonging to different individuals.
My ears are 9’ away from the center of the top horn.
My ears are ~11’ from the acoustic center situated between the lower edge of the large format horn and upper edge of the dual 15" woofer bass bin of my EV cinema speakers, and here the sound coheres wonderfully. I.e.: they’re 2-way speakers with the vertically aligned woofers coupled in parallel and the horn covers from ~600Hz on up. They’re subs augmented below ~85Hz.
Which version of the Jubilee’s do you own - the pro version made prior to the current domestic ditto? It would seem it shares the same MF/HF horn as the domestic variant but with a different driver, and the bass horn isn’t ported.
|
@souljasmooth wrote:
Thats what I was hoping for with this thread. Info on what amps people are using with these speakers. I have tried Canary, Accuphase, Constellation, EAR. Still trying different amps.
I see. This can be a fairly arduous process finding the proper amp match, combination and configuration, and in any case you're left to your own findings eventually. Have you formed any preferences so far - an inkling perhaps towards tubes, SS, or a combination or the two? Low powered amps vs. higher powered? Similar amps for both the MF/HF and bass section? Even though the Jubilee’s are extremely efficient, my take is they’d thrive on some power still, despite claims to the contrary that much less power is "enough."
Moreover, if using a similar pair of stereo amps, try experimenting with vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping. This to me at least was an eye opener in my actively configured, high eff. speaker setup; using similar amps for both the MF/HF and bass section of my 2- way main speakers (the first important takeaway), and then configuring them vertically instead of horizontally - i.e.: one amp per speaker with its two channels divided over the MF/HF and bass sections. That’s where it all really began falling into place sonically, to me.
|
@ozzy62 wrote:
Only a fool would pair horns with a pair of high powered SS amps ...
I don’t share that sentiment.
I have heard two of the quietest tube amps recently. A Music Reference RM 10 II and a pair of Audio Mirror Eargasm monoblocks. Putting my ear next to my LaScalas with either of these amps powered up would fool you into thinking they were turned off.
Remember that the Jub’s are actively configured sans an intervening passive crossover to filter noise; when actively configured the amps are looking straight into the very high eff. driver sections, and thus any inherent noise coming from the amps is amplified and exposed.
@souljasmooth wrote:
My favorite combination so far is tube for mids/highs and SS for the subs. The problem I am having is I cant find a tube amp quiet enough. I listen mostly at lower/medium volumes.
How about looking for some lower powered class-A SS amps, for the top section at least? They might fit the bill sonically, while being suitably quiet.
|
@willywonka wrote:
I want to be clear about this. Everyone I overheard talking about the Jubilee’s or talked to at the show had the same exact impression on these speakers. In fact, even the major publications commented about it. My impressions AREN’T guessing but was in fact the popular opinion at the show by many people!
I didn’t mean to imply that your impressions of the sound of the Jubilee’s was a "guessing game," but rather that whatever specifics accounted for their lack of performance to your, and apparently others’ ears as well, was up in the air.
Also the fact that some people are blaming the amplification seems odd. The Manufacturer (Klipsch) provided this, and you would think that they would know what they are doing. Amplification was Michi P5 preamp, and Michi S5 stereo power amp.
To start with one would expect the representatives from Klipsch had some level of critical assessment and final approvement of the overall sound coming from the Jubilee’s at named show, and apparently they failed here, so whether it was down to the choice of amps, active filter settings, acoustics, speaker placement or other, well - who knows?
But being you were actually there, what more specifically threw you (and others) off wrt. their sound, and did you listen to other larger horn-loaded speakers to make for some comparison perhaps? What type of speakers do you prefer generally, if you even do have any preference based on the speaker principle involved?
I have no doubt these speakers can sound amazing, but they just didn’t sound right at that show
If they’re present at Axpona this year hopefully it’ll turn out more successfully for them and the listeners.
Large horn-based speakers, perhaps not least of the all-horn variety like the Jub’s, can be an imposing and rather different listening experience compared to the more typical segment of low eff. direct radiating speakers of vastly smaller size. To some that’s a blessing, and to others it may be too much or simply too different an experience for them to appreciate and savor. Well-made and -implemented large horn speakers don’t necessarily sound "imposing" per se, but one has to remember these are very different animals compared to the more "standard" fare of speakers; the uninhibited dynamics, presence, scale/size of sound and physicality can be quite startling, certainly at prodigious SPL’s that are often displayed at shows. That said not trying to excuse the Jub’s performance at Axpona ’22, however they might’ve performed to my ears.
|
@mikld wrote:
can expand upon your criticism of the new Jubilees’ ported bass horns ... do any other manufacturers’ or DIYers bass horn place the woofer is in a ported enclosure (vs the typical sealed)? I think Roy said this was his invention and he patented it. I understand the intent is for lower extension, what is the tradeoff in your opinion? Is the bass horn just being asked to perform too far out if its range and start impact the sound negatively?
In the domestic Jubilee’s the ported output via the back wave of the woofers comes out of phase in relation to the output of the front wave of the woofers, as per usual with ported designs, but here it is then - as a summed output - horn-loaded. Quite a few folded bass horns I’ve seen use ports in the woofer chamber, that’s usually sealed, to assist the lower end, but in those cases the ports radiate their output independently of the horn loading, and not into the horn itself like the Jub’s. Both options seem dubious to me being they impact the impulse response in the effort to squeeze out some extra extension/gain in the lower range from a limitedly sized package. Moreover, even though this mayn’t be a practical issue, there’s port noise to deal with, but the horn acts as a low pass filter, so with the Jub’s at least this may be a non-issue.
I have seen some folks on the klipsch forum with the older underground jubilee’s who have done what you recommended, ie, tapped horn for the lowest octaves, Jube horn up to say 400-500hz, then let the K402 take over. I’m not sure Klipsch would dip into tapped horns, as that tech belongs to Danley sound labs, no?
Yes, the tapped horn design is patented by DSL, but my suggestion wasn’t for Klipsch to make/design TH’s, but rather that the users could choose to implement TH’s from either DSL or DIY (DIY’ers are allowed by Danley to fiddle with the TH design as they choose, and who could prevent them) in their setup in conjunction with the Jub’s in their older, non-port incarnation. Or, a classic Front Horn Loaded design for subs, but they’re often hampered by being too small with a stunted mouth area to be their best; if people think TH’s take up a load of space (which they do covering down <25Hz, certainly with 12-15" on up woofers), wait till you see a more all-out FLH with a mouth area to match..
To reiterate: I haven’t listened to the domestic Jub’s, so I wouldn’t know how they perform in the lower mids on down. Maybe Roy has got his patented solution to work just fine sonically, but I suspect there’s a price to pay.
|
