"VPI arms don't require drilling the armboard. You simply screw it in the correct place, and set it up according to the cartridge. Very, Very easy.
"
Point was they are not like any other. Can't drop in a Rega or an SME which would be the two most common mountings. |
Thanks for all the replies.
I realize the arm is not state of the art. Remember though, the Signature is quite different from the normal 9".
Not sure it was anything I did but I am hearing less of it. On the other hand, sibilance bothers me so I would like to solve this. I do really like the Kleos otherwise. I have heard high-end carts plenty over the years and many are thin which the Kleos is not.
My dealer had SME but gave it up and his only other turntable brand is Rega which I do not want. I can go to the VPI 10.5i as an upgrade for a grand. You folks think it would work better with the Kleos?
I appreciate the help,
Robert
PS: I have experienced cartridge warmup. My Shelter is that way even more than the Kleos. |
"If you're going to make a change, ensure it is a legitimate upgrade not just a longer iteration of the same design."
Which is why I asked.
Aren't you a dealer of other brands? |
Myles, I will keep breaking it in. Need to add up the time on it. What do you folks do, say 40 min/lp times # of lps played? And yes, it really is actuating the sibilance. As an example the Featuring Norah Jones on a Dorian/JMW 9T did not have the sibilance. I am very familiar with most of the other stuff I have played on the Kleos. Some of it is stuff I have been playing for 35 years or so. Oh, I believe I am getting the extremes.
Tonight I have been playing with the VTA, it is sensitive to that, you can easily loose the magic. I will check it via Bill's method.
Nolitan: In some thread, someone said the Kleos has more goodness than the Delos. More detail, etc.
Enjoying the conversation. |
"Bill identified himself as a dealer in his first post in this thread. At the bottom of his post it says "Dealer Disclaimer". That seems pretty transparent to me, but English can be a funny language. "
Yes but many folks come into these things in the middle or later via searches. And he seems to have a strong anti VPI sentiment. I may be particularly cautious having sold Audio/Video in the past and know how some can be.
On the other hand, I plan to call him Monday.
Moving on, it may be breaking in but a few minutes ago on the first side (cart warmed up already) of Featuring Norah Jones the sibilance was quite pronounced on some cuts. I will probably try the dreaded anti-skate contraption and maybe a drop of dampening fluid if the sibilance does not abate soon.
What would you folks think of the 309 on Gyro SE? I really cannot afford to spend any more money but I cannot live with the sibilance. Sibilance is the reason some digital drives me batty. Not that anyone could tell.
Appreciate you folks helping:-) |
"Try weighting the headshell with a 5gm nickel & rebalancing the counterweight."
Yeah, thought about something like that. I have some Blu tack or similar. I might stick some of that on the headshell and rebalance. The Kleos is 8.8g which is heavier than the Helikon. Elusivedisc is selling a package with a Scoutmaster, 9 sig, and Helikon. Theoretically since the Helikon is lighter, if it works in a 9 sig, the Kleos should.
The cart has the ability to bring instruments and voices into the room like no other I have heard. Gotta make it work. It may bankrupt me, but gotta make it work.
:-)
PS: The Gyro has the funky motor and slow pacing so that is out. |
"A 0.05 gram difference in effective mass is insignificant."
A Helikon is 8 g and the Kleos is 8.8 g.
Just for clarity, I am not saying Bill is wrong about the arm being the issue. I just don't understand. My dealer had a Helikon on a 9 sig for probably years without an issue. In the past I would increase the tracking force but Mr. Carr is so adament about not going beyond 1.8.
How about a Sota Sapphire or Star with the 309? Still have my pace and transient speed?
Thanks |
Hey Folks,
"Try weighting the headshell with a 5gm nickel & rebalancing the counterweight."
Did the Blu-Tack to the headshell trick. It did help. Still too much sibilance but it is better. Also, it has dampened things a bit which was needed. This makes since as we have a VPI headshell weight on the wand with the Shelter.
Do I have it right, the Gryo is the one you have to start by hand or is that the Nottingham?
Y'all got no opinion on the Sota?
Hope your Moday is going well,
Robert |
Vpihw, I will continue to break it in. Will count the hours after dinner. Was going to call you folks today but did not get to it. So, you do not think the 10.5i will work better with the Kleos?
Turned up the heat.
If this is Mr. W. I am replying to, it is a joy to hear from you. HP's recommendations(Fremer liked it too of course) and my dealer's(SoundWorld here in Houston) low key approach are two reasons I bought the Scoutmaster/JMW 9sig/TNT mini feet a couple of years ago.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Robert |
Concerning the Benz LP argument, let's don't forget that cables really can make a big difference due to changes in capacitance, etc.
So at least 3 people have mentioned the phono stage, both here, on the telephone, and my dealer via email. (did talk to Bill BTW, he is trying to help) I will sub in my Dynavector phone stage but can someone point me to an explanation of how a phono stage can cause sibilance and/or mistracking?
Thanks |
So I have about 38 hours on it using 40min/LP as a multiplier.
Put the Dynavector P75 MkII in place of the GCPH. Surprisingly it sounds pretty good with the Kleos. Has a peak someplace around 1-2k which makes it sometimes sound a bit lowfi but this could be the cable. Had Hero balanced from the GCPH to the NAD M3 integrated. The P75 has bass more like the GCPH when used with the Kleos.
Anyway, let the P75 warmup and the sibilance is still there. Playing an original pressing of Court & Spark. Man the Kleos can separate the voices.
Heater's on 70.
BTW, using 100ohms as I was on the GCPH. |
Had to read it, thanks.
So, based on my testing/experience and yours I can conclude that it is the arm/cart interaction. As I have stated to some I had some issues, including sibilance, with the Shelter and just went up on the VTF. Can't do that with the Kleos, JC might send Ninjas . And I kept remembering that my V15IV MXR will track anything, even on the Project 2.1. Including sibilants and the Telarc cannons. Of course I haven't seen anyone mention the V15 cheats. It has a brush on the front that doubles as a dampener. Of course it also cannot reveal the two different reverbs on Sir Paul's voice during the same word. The Kleos can. I also keep thinking of the VPI tech telling me they prefer heavy carts. On the VPI website they do not offer and apparently do not believe in low output moving coil cartridges.
So let me state it more directly, it is a tracking issue. It is not the phono preamp or the setup or the alignment or a lack of breakin. Goatwuss tried alignments with the VPI jig and with a Mint. I have been setting up turntables since the early 70's and have never had sibilance not be a tracking issue. Maybe in rare cases it could be something else, but never in my experience. I, like Goatwuss, was open to other ideas.
Leaning towards a refurbed Sota Star with a SME 309.
I am still open to new ideas.
Thanks yet again,
Robert |
"I thought you were clear that you did not hear mistracking on high pitched tracks, just sibilants & grunge on male vocals. This was the only reason concerning a better matched wiring loom in your system."
There are many types of tracking/tracing problems. The inability to reproduce clean sibilants is one of them.
As a further stop gap I am going to add more weight to the headshell. And returning the Kleos is unacceptable. Not sure he would take it back and I think the Kleos is quite wonderful. The last U2 is playing now and it is in another league with the Kleos, still not great but much better.
"As you ask for a new idea, I would like to point something better : Denon DP80/SME 312S"
Thanks for that. I will look at the Denon. I used to sell their stuff, even the high end stuff. My dealer does have Denon HT products.
Glad y'all are keeping it going. It makes the annoyance a bit easier to take. |
"...cleanly rendered sibilants and shimmering high frequency transients with no hint of edge..."
Yep, glad you brought that up, read it twice. Should have that passage memorized!
Dgarretson had said add weight to the headshell which I did. He then said more. So now I have 3g on it. Even more dampened than with just the .9g . Highs are crisper, particularly noticeable on symbols. The vocals on Captain and Me appear to have mostly cleared up. That LP was showing the most gravel in the some of the vocals. Still getting sibilance on RAM. Bass definition seems to have improved even further. Will try Norah next. |
Sibilance still there on multiple LP's including Featuring Norah Jones. It is improved. The sound is really good otherwise. A bit less slam but everything is more controlled and crisper. Maybe a little HiFi sounding occasionally but very little. Just heard really nice cymbal hits that sounded real so that is definitely better. Norah gives a good try to Court and Spark but Ms. Mitchell owns that. At the risk of sounding like a broken LP, piano is so wonderful through the Kleos.
Pretty sure I cannot live with a blob of Blu-tack on the headshell!
So Dgarretson gets the prize, whatever that may not be, for recommending the weigh on the headshell trick. |
Sibilance still there on multiple LP's including Featuring Norah Jones. It is improved. The sound is really good otherwise. A bit less slam but everything is more controlled and crisper. Maybe a little HiFi sounding occasionally but very little. Just heard really nice cymbal hits that sounded real so that is definitely better. Norah gives a good try to Court and Spark but Ms. Mitchell owns that. At the risk of sounding like a broken LP, piano is so wonderful through the Kleos.
Pretty sure I cannot live with a blob of Blu-tack on the headshell!
So Dgarretson gets the prize, whatever that may not be, for recommending the weigh on the headshell trick. |
Hey Group,
I forgot to mention honorable mention to Bill for his insistence here that the issue was the tonearm. We just need to get him to stop being so shy.
So I called Donna again at Sota and ordered a refurb Star with the series V motor, composite armboard, and SME 309. They are going to mount the arm and I am going to ship them the Kleos for mounting in about 3 weeks unless they call and say they are ready for it earlier. Briefly spoke to Kirk as well. Nice folks.
When I switch back to the arm wand with the Shelter I will add more weight to that headshell and see how the Shelter responds. |
Goatwuss, I definitely plan to post initial and later impressions.
Scary lack of specifications on the 1000, not even in the manual. Does it have adjustable VTA or will the Mitchell mod work? I am skeptical. Sales in large numbers does not denote greatness as you probably realize.
Your Orbe have the plinth? Why do they think it needs it? Not finding any info on the Orbe dampening, how does the subplatter or whatever work? In any case they appear to be nice machines. Was considering a Gyro.
Take it EZ,
Robert |
"Maybe I should try a Rega RB300 and see if the problem goes away. I guess it is a pretty good value."
Ixnay on the Rega. No VTA adjustment unless you buy the Mitchell mod. I believe the Rega's to be common not great.
What is the weight of your Benz? VPI has headshell weights. Call 'em and ask them to send you one. There is also somebody selling something called the Isolator, which is essentially a headshell weight with dampening. Might be worth a try.
As I said earlier, VPI wants HEAVY cartridges.
Good Luck,
Robert |
Thanks Goatwuss. Orbe sounds well thoughtout.
Tobes, looked at your system, bet that updated TNT with the Phantom is quite nice.
I am with Tobes on the VTA issue. Some of Rega's design decisions do not make sense to me. Wish the VTA was easier to set on the 309. It is similar to the arm on my Perspective (someday I need to get the cart lead I broke repaired and put a spare cart on that) in the way you raise the back of the arm and then tighten something. The JMW Sig has a knurled knob you turn then tighten two allen heads. |
markd51: Acoustic interaction? In what way?
In my case the adjustments have been checked and rechecked.
Look at their website, they sell MM's and a HOMC. One of their people told me they like heavy cartridges. Not the sort of folks that would want a $2750 Kleos on their 2nd from the bottom arm.
And don't get me wrong, I like the Scoutmaster/JMW 9 Sig. Well made stuff. Keep in mind that I mentioned that I had issues with the Shelter 501 II as well. Had to put one of VPI's weights on and up the tracking force. Also keep in mind that the problem with the sibilance was mostly solved by adding weight to the headshell.
I probably should have tried the fluid as HW suggested but I became disenchanted and have thought for years that fluid dampening is ok for tables but not tonearms.
You read the whole thread?
Thanks for your thoughts,
Robert |
"Does anyone know of a drop in replacement for the JMW 9. I am open to suggestions or is it just a matter of starting over."
There are none. VPI does not use any standard mounting hole. Like me, you must start over.
Sorry 'bout that,
Robert |
"The JMW-9 is the exact geometry or the Rega, the Rega drops into the hole cut in the chassis and works perfectly - more bad information."
Apologies HW, did not see that in any of your documentation.
"There is no such thing as a standard mounting - every damn arm is different unless the company is actually trying to make it easier for customers to use other arms if they want to - like VPI did with the JMW-9 mounting. "
True, but the Rega and SME mountings are more(far?) common than any others.
"Robob can buy whatever table he feels like buying and I hope he enjoys it but if he cannot get a Kleos to work in the arm he has then he has no concept of how to setup a unipivot. It is different than a fixed bearing arm."
The dealer initially set it up and I have tried many things, except the fluid. Interesting that since you knew I was having issues and publicly asking for help, why did you not have someone email me?
"Isnt easier to send us an e-mail and ask us what works perfectly in the arm we make!!!!!"
That is one way to do it. The other is to buy the cartridge you want and if it does not work ask for help. If it cannot be made to work then one must go back to the previous cart, buy something else, or replace the arm. In this case I really wanted a Delos or a Kleos. The VPI cart lacked the clarity and high end of the Shelter and the Shelter lacks fullness in the midrange.
HW, I appreciate you taking time to reply. We wish J. Carr would chime in.
Thanks,
Robert |
"What album are you refering to when you mention "Captain and Me" ?"
"The Captain And Me" by the Doobie Brothers. IMHO, it is their best effort:-) |
"Robob, I haven't read all the replies, but I have been suprised to find the same sibilance on the cd-meaning that it was in the recording(overloaded mikes?)."
Thanks, I may have to check that out. Which recording are you referring to? I am getting the sibilance on most lps.
"someone mentioned earlier of a standard mount, i do not know if that means an SME mount will work for more tonearms than just SME, Rega mount etc. "
As Bill (Audiofeil) said there is no standard mount. However, some arm manufacturers use the SME style slot and some use the Rega hole because those are common. SME has been around for a long time and Rega sells in volume.
Ditto on the lack of VPI documentation. Had I know about the Rega compatibility, I might have tried one of the non-Rega arms that fit that hole.
BTW, I think HW was calling Bill a moron not me. VPI may want to keep in mind that Dual was once the number table. And probably Garrad before them. It's easy to loose one's way while selling lots of product. Ask GM.
Y'all be cool,
Robert
PS: Like a child before Christmas, it is difficult to wait on my new table/arm. |
Good for Tzh21y!
I am the OP and no amount of adjusting has solved my issue. As I mentioned, putting weight on the headshell improved things significantly.
Over last weekend I removed about 1 gram of the Blu-tack (imitation brand) and reset VTF/VTA. This resulted in more lively sound and somewhat underdamped sound. And the sibilance increased somewhat.
Yesterday I removed the Kleos and send it to Sota so they can install it in a SME 309 for my upcoming Star refurb. I put the wand with the Shelter 501 II back on the JMW 9 Signature and readjusted VTF, etc. Real difference. Not as fast, lighter and undistinguished bass, and generally lower quality sound. The Shelter is pretty good in some areas, it does retrieve a fair amount of detail and has a clarity that my VPI/Dynavector 20xH cannot match. Of course I bought the Shelter when they were under 1K$.
Y'all have some fun,
Robert |
So, Maczurak, tell us how the resonant frequency relates to tracking sibilance. I'm rusty on the specifics.
Thanks,
Robert
|
"This was a post more in response to text from 01-11-11"
Which doesn't answer the question of how resonant frequency relates to sibilance.
It also does not refute the idea of buying the cart one wants and seeing if one can make it work.
And you failed to put quotes around my remark:
"That is one way to do it. The other is to buy the cartridge you want and if it does not work ask for help. If it cannot be made to work then one must go back to the previous cart, buy something else, or replace the arm. In this case I really wanted a Delos or a Kleos. "
Robert
|
"As for the sibilance issue, if you still have the VPI and decide to have another go at it, I would ensure the tonearm base is securely fastened to the plinth. I would also try removing the junction box platform and securing the junction box directly to the plinth. I would also check the pivot point the tonearm balances on to ensure its not bent from tonearm wand removal or cart adjustments. Is your plinth firmly resting on all four feet without a slight wobble?"
Sounds like good ideas. I really don't want to spend anymore time on the VPI but since my Sota is not here yet I may look at those items this weekend.
And since I do not have the Sota yet, anybody know of a NEW or maybe Audiogon used cart in the $300 range that works well on the 9 sig? I prefer non harsh highs (but my old ears need highs) and full mids. Not that interested in massive detail. Will a 103R work? I have a GCPH so I can use just about any MC or MM/MI.
I have my previous generation Grado Reference Platinum mounted but it has indistinct bass and is not very involving. It's a real problem listening to anything less after hearing the Kleos. I suspect some carts may not work well with the Valhalla wiring in the 9 sig, in addition to matching the arm.
Thanks,
Robert
|
"We don't claim to be perfect, but we always do our best, and if there are manufacturing defects with any of our products, we will take care of them."
Thanks and good to hear from you.
You may not have read the whole thread, I have a refurb Sota Star with a SME 309 on order. I have sent the Kleos to Sota for mounting on the new rig. Other than the sibilance, I really think the Kleos is wonderful. Since Fremer tested the Kleos in a 309 and pointed out clean sibilants, I suspect the new setup will be quite nice.
In my last post I was trying to get someone here to give me a suggestion on a cheap cart that will work in the 9 sig so I have something decent to listen to until the Sota arrives.
Congrats on the new design and it's acceptance.
Thanks,
Robert
|
