JTR RS1s (18” sealed subs) vs JL Audio E112s, (JBL 4367)


I got a pair of JTR RS1s (18” sealed subs) a few weeks ago to replace a pair of JL Audio E112s and I have been very impressed with the JTRs. I am using a pair of JBL 4367 speakers and a K235 active crossover from Sublime Audio with a 60hz high/low pass (24db slope). Updated pictures are in my profile.

 

 

The Sound for 2ch:

 

Overall, the JTRs are more detailed and textured than the JLs. They also blend better with the JBL 4367s much better than my JL E112s (also actively crossed over at 60hz). The JLs always had a bit of an over damped sound to me. That feeling of bass being from a sub and not a passive speaker, but they always sounded good regardless of this small issue. It was not until I got the JBLs with their amazing mid bass texture that I felt the JLs were lacking detail.

 

The JTR RS1 has a very light and nimble sound. More so than any sub I have heard. The driver even sounds/feels light when tapping on it with a light tone. When tapping on the JL driver there is a very dead low thump. I feel the 4367s outclass the JL for bass details, but I feel the JTR outclasses the 4367 for details and eclipses the JL. When actively crossed over the RS1s and JBL 4367 sound as if they are cut from the “same cloth” which is very surprising to me. To say I am impressed with their musicality would be an understatement and I never expected the end result to be so seamless.

 

I was not sure if I would notice the lower bass extension of the JTRs over the JLs for music but it is very noticeable and luckily adjustable on the JTRs with the Low Frequency knob on the back. There is about 8dB of adjustment between 20hz-30hz. At first the low bass sounded odd to me as I was not used to hearing it. I used the adjustment to cut the frequency. But as I adjusted, I turned it back to flat. I think this is intend for boundary reinforcement adjustments but is a very interesting tool for 2ch. After a week of tuning by ear I broke out the mic and measured the room and bass through the crossover was totally flat. Room modes of course still in tack with a peak at 90db-110db in my room but otherwise flat. I believe this 90-110db peak is caused by my low ceilings interaction with the 4367s as it was also there on my Revel 228be.

 

All said and done changing out good subs for better subs is not as big of a change as switching speakers but has made a bigger difference than changing electronics.

 

 

The Sound for Movies:

 

I am 99% music, but my room is setup as a home theater (all black, 120” screen, etc) and I bypass my home theater through my two channel system. The left and right RCA inputs in the subs can be used for both movies and music (the two channel is through balanced cables). All speakers are high-passed at 60hz and the LEF comes in at 80hz.

 

Anyway, I don’t have too much to say other than the power and low reach of these subs is crazy. My room is 26’X30”X8’ and I leave the back doors open to other rooms which extends the listing space to 42’. At reference volume (85dB speech, 105dB peaks) I worried about damaging the house and I am not kidding. I have no way to measure bass under 20hz with my current meters but there are scenes where I don’t “hear” the bass but it is felt and the doors flap.

 

Other items:

 

The build is very much like pro speakers with good but no thrills build. They are covered in spatter paint like a guitar amp. No issue for me in my black room but could be an issue for some.

 

The built in low pass crossover only goes down to 60hz so these IMO will mandate a high-pass on the mains at minimum for two channel. It does not go low enough to rolling in under a set of towers without a high-pass of some kind. You could add an external lower pass only I guess.

 

There is also no “phase” adjustment but there is a knob marked as “delay” in MS. I honestly don’t know how these compare as I did not need them to integrate using an active crossover.

 

They add no hum to my system which the JL’s did with their poor quality amps.

 

As a side note I am pleased with the Sublime K235 too and I will make another post about it. It is a good alternative analogue option. The K235 allows me to home theater bypass through it by using balanced for my 2ch preamp and RCA for my home theater as both inputs are active.

james633

Showing 9 responses by james633

Yeah I guess they are expensive but they seemed like a good buy in their market. The E112 in gloss is $2700 now and a fair enough price comparison. The trade off is the JTRs are ugly beasts lol  

other subs I looked at:

JBL SUB18, $3800 without amps (crown amps with the needed PEQs are $$$) and total package was out of my price range

Rythmik F18, $1800, probably a better buy for music, maybe not as good for movies. At the end of the day I just wanted to try the JTR.

Perlisten R18 $4995, less performance but adds internal room correction I would not use as I have external solutions if needed.

I did not look at them as JL will never get another penny from me (I had five failed E112 over 10 years) but the fathom F113v2 is $6000 now! That is a lot of money for an old design with questionable reliability.

 

Phusis,

Seem like good insight on your comments above.

I also set up the subs a few different ways before settling on the K235 crossover.

#1 I used my surround processor (Marantz) to crossover, time align the subs with my mains. I tried a number of higher crossover points (60-110hz etc) and still liked 60-70hz the best. The integration was good but with the processor on I felt I was missing something in sound quality. Hard to put my finger on exactly what it was. The system as a whole was just a touch less dynamic and maybe the sound stage was smaller. Could be just placebo on my part. With the processor in pure direct it does sound a bit better to me but the crossover are not active in this mode.

#2. I also tried a simple highpass filters from Harrison labs. This was a 12db slope at 70hz (I had to flip the leads on my speakers) and then used the subs internal low pass. This measured very flat across the frequent range, maybe even more stable than the 24db slopes but I felt like a bit of impact as missing where the drivers over lapped. I also found the volume of the sub ultra critical with this setup.

I might add room correction on the source at some point. I have not been real impressed with audyssey and almost always end up with manual adjustments. For 2ch at the moment I am not using correction and just moved everything around to where it measured/sounded the best…. Those two correlate by the way…

On a side note I will try some higher crossover points soon. I need to order cards (only $12) for the K235 as it does not have a variable adjustment. I “knew” roughly where I wanted to start playing in my system from past experience.

I sometimes feel like higher crossover points really could use super steep digital filters (48db) to keep the subs out of the low vocals. Something I have never really played with as most “highend” options are very expensive. Something cheap like the Mini DSP SHD would work (sound quality?) but really complicates my home theater with added delays due to processing and another digital to analogue conversion I really don’t want in my movies.

m-db

The only built in frequency adjustment on the sub is a manual low effect control adjusted by a knob. It adjust the slope from 40hz-10hz by about 8dB and has a surprising large effect on the sound. Audioholics discusses it in their review linked below (has a graph of full cut and full boost). I believe the sub they reviewed is the older driver and the current RS1 come with a new driver from the RTJ (not a typo) 18Sub which Audioholics also reviewed. 
 

when JTR talk about DSP I assume they have a non adjustable filter in the amp that forces the sub to play lower/flatter but I don’t know. They are very short on information. The measured group delay is 10ms at 20hz and only 5ms above 40hz.  Where something like SVS SB16 with built in user adjustable filters has a group delay is 90ms at 20hz and about 10ms above 40hz. Some say this delay does not matter in the bass as the waves are so long but I would disagree. If you are time aligning then digitally no issue regardless but I am using simple analogue slopes.  
 

 

Mijostyn,

 

I have followed your system over the years and it has always looked impressive, I am sure it sounds amazing. 
 

SHD studio is an interesting idea. It would also allow for Dirac on the source side. 
 

I ordered a few more cards for the K235 and will try some higher crossover points soon. 

Phusis,

 

Thanks for the detailed thoughts.

yes I have tried rolling in subs under my mains at 37hz with my JL but not the JTR (internally their low pass stops at 60hz) and ran it that way for a month or so. It sounded fine but lack the impact on kick drums that highpassing brings. I am very happy with the current solution. I am sure it could be better by having the same exact driver/amp but I personally have not heard a better sub system as of now. I will try some higher crossovers not that I feel I need them but a few people who I respect have recommend them. Most of the time after messing around I end up back at 60hz.

Sadly crown amps are not the last word in fidelity and I think they hold the M2 back as I find them a little harsh. More or less Harman gives you a file to load into the crown amps with the needed PEQs and then you can adjust from there. The stock M2 filters are much different (much brighter) than the tuning of the 4367s. Erin’s audio corner has measurements of both if you’re interested. I would just end up filtering the M2 to match the 4367 as I like the built in “Harman curve”. The M2 replacement; the SCL-1 looks interesting. It has a passive network that can be 100% bypass to use active filters by the jumpers in the front. There is a silly deal on a pair “local” to me but I am pretty happy with the current setup.

 

I have been trying a bit higher crossover this week. I am currently using 75hz and went as high as 120hz. I think the truth this with a proper crossover you can pretty much crossover at any point and get a good blend. The 18” JTR have more detail and weighty below 80hz. 75hz is a bit smoother (due to speaker placement?) and seems not to negatively impact anything. For now I will leave it and just get accustom to the sound. With acoustic and natural recorded music the subs are stemless. With music that is mastered in a studio with a lot of bass they are far less discreet lol. 
 

I am using a 24db slope. If I had an electronic crossover with a higher slope a higher crossover might work too as long as they stay out of the vocals. I personally don’t think the 4367 need crossover higher than 60hz. Higher just becomes a game or incremental gains. 

Phusis,

Thanks for the impression. I have not heard the M2 just looked at the measurements (Harman’s and Kipple from Erin’s audio corner). I have heard a few crown amps which are fine. 
 

I will not argue against the advantages of active systems. It is just a lot of messing around. I saw a video (could have been print?) where Greg Timbers (co designer of these models) turned his personal Everest DD67000 into active models which was an interesting interview. I believe his goal was to time align the drivers. 

Ohlala,

 

I always like the sound of the JL but the JTR pretty much eclipse them. I have not owned the F13 but have done a back to back E112 vs Fathom and thought they were pretty close in sound charter, minus the built in EQ.

I will give plugging the ports a shot. I am highpassed pretty far above the ports at the moment (75hz) so I might not matter much but worth a try.

my room is pretty big so not too many issues with the bass that is handled by the subs. The peak from 90-110hz could use some love. I have 12 7” GIK monster traps which help a little bit and my entire ceiling is turned into a trap too that should reach as low as 90hz. I also have some room correction tools but have chosen not to use them at the moment.