Jazz for aficionados
****The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz.**** Personally, I would word it slightly differently. There IS African in American music; but, there is no such thing as "African-American" music. It is uniquely American. |
Nothing is being merged, we are talking about the origination of slaves and their music, this has absolutely nothing to do with the different races who came before or after. At this juncture, before we get back to our regularly scheduled programming of jazz, the question is what happened to the slaves music after they were imported to "America"? There is nothing in your post that answers this question. Especially since that music was retained and survived all of those hundreds of years, every place, except here. |
Is this about Jazz or Just music in general? My comments were made thinking it was about Jazz. As far as the Music part of this slavery stuff, there are many things to consider, such as: And this applies to Brazil, Cuba and the USA. Dominate Religion, Form of Government, Geographical location, climate, size of country, what was the economy based on, population size and ethnicity, and Political status of the area. all of these things will shape the people, their relationships with each other and the art the create. Folks in the USA had musical instruments to play. Violins (fiddles), guitars, pianos etc... Fife and Drum units were very big in North Mississippi. Maybe the folks in Cuba, and esp Brazil, only had drums (logs?) to beat. The relationship between slaves and whites in the US was much different than those relationships in Brazil or Cuba. This fact shaped everything! I could go on, but you get my point. BTW, there are more black folks in Brazil than any other country except Nigeria. If you go to Brazil during 'Carnival', you will see them. Any other time, maybe not. The Spanish came to the New World Looking for Gold. The English came looking for God. That explains a lot. You may be trying to merge apples with oranges. Cheers |
Rok, I've always liked the "Voodoo music", just as much as I liked "Cherry Pink & Apple Blossom White". (No one could have been in taller cotton) And I put as much religious connotation on Voodoo music as I put on "Cherry Pink & Apple Blossom White". There are elements of the Voodoo drums in much of African music, that's why I want to strip the music from the religion as much as possible. This is an "audible" excursion, we are judging everything by ear. Enjoy the music. |
Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Let's not move so fast of this 'African" stuff. It's not as simple as you are making out. The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz. Cultural forces don't move that fast. More like glaciers. The only possible African influence would have been from people arriving here directly from Africa during the slave trade. Importation of slaves into this country ended in 1810, if I recall correctly. Once here, the influences were Euro-American. Primarily music inspired by The King James version of the Holy Bible. Please don't make me have to fight off VooDoo!!! And to think, someone once chastised me for saying you have to DEFEND the music! :) And finally, O-10, this drum nonsense, is just that. Cheers |
**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.**** So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5Vo Around 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydo Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and you get something like this; the "choro", the first popular Brazilian style: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46M-Eor8D08 |
**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.**** So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5Vo Around 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"): Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the mix of Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and we get, among other things, the choro; the first popular Brazilian music style: [URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtI-uq8R1yo>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydo[URL] Add the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the mix of Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and we get, among other things, the choro; the first popular Brazilian music style: [URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtI-uq8R1yo |
Rok, this time it's about the evolution of music from Africa since the time of slavery, and how it's represented in this hemisphere; that would also include a comparison of evolution in the reverse direction, meaning from here to Africa. It's really beautiful when you think of artists like Hugh Maselela, and Miriam Makeba where the evolution went in the reverse direction of my original post. Enjoy the music. |
While the music in Africa, which was the point of origination, evolved; the music in Brazil, in Bahia for example, could be the same as when it left the continent of Africa hundreds of years ago. I find the Afro Brazilian music more pleasing to my musical sensibilities than the music of Africa, and some of it could be the African original, since it's traditional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ORkB1eKWE This music "Pops" like nothing I've heard recently. Enjoy the music. |
Acman3: Both enjoyable clips. The Dollar Brand could just as easily been Masekela. But who doesn't like Masekela. Jazz?? No. But I don't know if O-10's journey is about Jazz or just music. The South African Jazz scene will mature once they get pass every tune having to involve native dress, dancing and Apartheid. Nice Clips Cheers |
Acman3, you're definitely into the swing of things, this is history by ear and nothing else. This music came from Africa with the slaves, and was suppressed, that's why we didn't hear it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJUWRThg-c Enjoy the music. |
O, Every journey has a beginning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8rKFHxnOe8 Skipping slavery, but not oppression. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izJYZhZgkMg |
O-10: Great music clip. I love that sort of music. If we go on a musical journey, I'm getting off in Brazil. I just love the sound of vocal Brazilian music, esp that sung by females. Your narrative about African music in Cuba and Brazil, and the lack of African music in the U.S., is very interesting. I think I agree with most of what you said. A few things, I will have to 'ponder' and respond to later. I disagree that slavery in this country was 'by far the cruelest'. History proves that it was not. And, slavery was not that bad, all things considered. It's not like, Work visas or tourtist visas, were an option. If the choice is Africa or America, I choose America. My observation is, African American people have had the least contact with Africa, and have been influenced the least by Africa, of all black peoples. (thank you Jesus0. Since Afro-American music has influenced music world wide. That is telling. I will try to make a contribution to this project, with full understanding of the risk of incurring the wrath of The Frogman when we get to Cuba. :) Cheers |
Here's the music from Nawlins, it's the same as the music in Haiti or Brazil. It came to this hemisphere with the slaves, and survived all of those centuries "unchanged"; that's what I call a history without a history book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJUWRThg-c |
Rok, and Frogman, with your help I would like to take a very interesting historical journey; we'll do it "audibly". I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil. Baden Powell is an artist who was the favorite of a professional jazz musician I knew, his music has stood the test of time in my collection, and it's the just right blend of Afro Brazilian jazz that stands repeated listening. "Canto De Ossanha" is one of my favorites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgS16Ipnr2E Next is a very languid version of "Lemanja". I would like for us to explore Afro Brazilian the same way we explored Afro Cuban, we didn't skim the surface, but went deep; bypass the commercial, there is a wealth of this music we haven't heard before. I've noticed a big difference between the different Afro Blends. Afro- Cuban, is quite different from the Brazilian. The most unique aspect of Afro Brazilian music is the berimbau. Here is the website that gives a description of this instrument. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berimbau>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcpfHAJZagE[url] I would like for us to explore Afro Brazilian the same way we explored Afro Cuban, we didn't skim the surface, but went deep; bypass the commercial, there is a wealth of this music we haven't heard before. I've noticed a big difference between the different Afro Blends. Afro- Cuban, is quite different from the Brazilian. The most unique aspect of Afro Brazilian music is the berimbau. Here is the website that gives a description of this instrument. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berimbau Slaves in Brazil escaped and set up a free community in Brazil called Palmares that lasted for almost 100 years; that's why the "Afro" in Afro Brazilian is so pervasive. This was a historical secret for quite some time. While the "berimbau" was one of their favorite instruments, nobody knows precisely where it came from, that's what I mean when I say "Afro Brazil" is unique. While there is "Afro-Cuban", there is no "Afro-American"; slave masters evidently told them "I want yall to stop beatin them damn drums, ya hear me", and they quit. Slavery in this country was by far the cruelest. African music came to this country from Cuba or Haiti, it was not passed down from the African slaves. Nothing African, that's audible, came my way before Dizzy Gillespie, and that was from Cuba. The only thing that survived was the "Voodoo music" in New Orleans, and it would not have survived if it had not been kept secret. While this religion and it's music are one inseparable package, we want to focus exclusively on the music. Here is some accompanying music from New Orleans, check "New Orleans Voodoo" on you tube, there is no doubt about it's origin; "Africa"! If you go to Haiti, you will hear this same music; kids can beat this out with a rock in each hand banging on a metal shovel, while others dance to the music. This same music and rituals can be heard anywhere in Brazil if you are invited to one of the secret meetings, and I'm sure the same goes for Cuba; but this isn't about the rituals, this is exclusively about music from Africa that survived through that horrible thing called slavery. Enjoy the music. |
“It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide where jazz starts or where it stops, where Tin Pan Alley begins and jazz ends, or even where the borderline lies between classical music and jazz. I feel there is no boundary line.” - Duke Ellington ****I had to cringe at the Ellington quote. Can a mere mortal disagree with The Duke?? Some people might take his statement too literal.**** Rok First of all, I seem to remember a comment by you a while back, something along the lines of "sometimes I think listeners are more purist than the artists themselves". Well, there's some truth to that. Concerning Duke, remember the context (funny how we keep coming back to context). He was a composer and orchestrator who "lived" in and was very close to both genres; he wrote music that did in fact blur the lines between the two. And if I may, a comment I made: "One can never know too much". Look at a picture in a newspaper: the further you step back, the clearer boundary lines appear. The closer you get to the picture, the more you see the dots that make up each image; the more the boundaries get blurred. |
I thought maybe The O-10 could pick up some fashion pointers from this. Then he won't have to go around looking like Spike Jones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlE-Zv4Pyhk What do Beethoven's 5th, Ellington's Jeep Blues and Calloways's Minnie the Moocher all have in common? It will take a true Aficionado two seconds to answer this. Cheers |
BTW, There are two quotes in the liner sleeve of the 'Gershwin's World' CD. One by Gershwin, and one by Ellington. The Gershwin quote is dead on!! Could not agree more. He nailed it. It might also explain the state of Jazz today. The nation's store of engery is winding down. I had to cringe at the Ellington quote. Can a mere mortal disagree with The Duke?? Some people might take his statement too literal. Cheers |
Thanks for asking. Yes, but I like my privacy and anonymity, and I don't like to toot my own horn (pun intended); especially on public forums. I am sure you have noticed that I don't play the "as a professional musician...." card. I will say, however, that the CD's range from movie soundtracks, to recordings with The NY Philharmonic, The Saturday Night Live Band, Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, Met Opera, Mario Bauza, Paquito D'Rivera, NY Pops and lots in between. No false modesty here, but that's way more information than I am comfortable with :-) for a host of reasons, not the least of which is the nature of the industry that I am in; it is a very small community. BTW, speaking of Herbie and Orpheus Chamber Orchestra checkout Herbie's "Gershwin's World", absolutely beautiful record, |
Rok, I have a feeling this will get YOU moving: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PE6HmArln_k BTW, Sam and Dave on vocals, Herbie Hancock on keys, and in the horn section (among others) the previously discussed tuba player Howard Johnson on baritone saxophone (one of his doubles), and a young Dave Sanborn before he became a "star". |
Today's Listen: Christian McBride Trio -- OUT HERE McBride(b), Christian Sands(p), Ulysses Owens jr(d) Jazz Lives!! Old-timers like me live for these rare moments. I knew I was in for a treat when I saw the first tunes were ' Ham Hocks & Cabbage ' and 'Hallelujah Time' :) 9 Tunes. No weak tracks. Who is this piano player, and where has he been hiding? His playing on 'hallelujah time' is just awesome. McBridge plays the Bass using the bow on this and other tracks. I think even the Frogman would be impressed with the intonation and articulation of this bass playing. They do an awesome 'My Favorite Things'. Is there any tune more suitable for Jazz improvisation?? It's almost impossible to screw up this tune. And they nailed this version. Love it! A unique 'Cherokee' is also on the CD. They end the session with a killer 'who's making love'. Seems as if this set started and ended in the Delta! Great playing all around. This bodes well for the future of Jazz. The cover photo is great. Serious players, and young ones at that, playing serious music. No faded jeans with holes in the knees, here! The recording quality equals the quality of the performance. Without fault. You know you gotta have it. Check it out. I will have to see what else they have recorded. Cheers |
I don't have anything by Wess as leader. I do have him on 'Basie at Newport' and 'April In Paris'. In fact he seems to be on all my Basie CDs. Its always sad to lose these guys. Esp since their quality of musicianship won't be replaced. If he reached 91, he must have lived a good and clean life, at least by Jazz standards. So many died so much younger. He looked like a true pro. Max substance, min show. Serious! Cheers |
Unfortunately everything I had by Frank Wess was on LP, and who knows where that went; but I found this, and I thought I would share it with you and Rok, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703LlU1pwX4 Bobby McFerrin made me feel like I was in church in Mound Bayou, Mississippi; way back when. Enjoy the music. |
Yup. We have a winner! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=barWV7RWkq0 On a more serious note, thanks for bringing Gene Harris to the discussion, I was not familiar with his work other than by reputation. Fantastic player. |
OK, jazz aficionados, here is an opportunity to be the first recipient of the "Lobotomy Award": Can you name the tune that Frank Wess and Gene Harris are playing on? On the above clip you never actually hear the melody of the tune, only the harmonic progression and improvisation. The chord progression of this tune is one of the most distinctive and recognizable. Hint: Duke BTW, the title of this award was inspired by a quote of one of my favorite comments ever read on this forum ** "Hell, no wonder I don't GET IT. Ever since I had my lobotomy, (in a vain attempt to be able to hear wire)" - Rok2id |
Frank Wess passed yesterday at 91 years of age. A beautiful player that will be missed. Nothing else that I can say except to listen to this (look at the faces of the NYC saxophone young lions in the section; that says it all): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1xZJqsjr58 This one's for Rok: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GILdf3RqRQA |
Frogman to the rescue! I had to look at Bobby and Bags for a third time in order to confirm Frogman's post. Since Bobby is my man, I certainly didn't look at this with any bias; but Bags is the greatest ever, and when you read between the lines, both he and Bobby are acknowledging that fact. Enjoy the music. |
