Jazz for aficionados

O-10:

If you look and listen closely, you will notice when Battle leaves Carnegie and goes to church!!

Cheers

All of these several clips are very interesting. This one most of all. The part we never see. The preparation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcGcig8Wj_A

Cheers

part two might be even better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Egi1EQ2Ecw

cheers

Is everyone familiar with the 'JAZZ ICONS" DVD series? New to me, and it appears to be great. Check it out on Amazon and you tube it also.

This is one by Quincy Jones with big band. On this one we get everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmpwWYLMxYA

A French Horn errr excuse me, Horn.
Two females, one on piano and Melba Liston on Trombone
Phil Woods when he was younger and much, much slimmer
The tunes 'Moanin', (should make the OP happy), 'Lester leaps in' and several more good ones.

This series seems to be worth checking out. Nice one by Monk aand others also.

Cheers

You are always welcome to ask questions and I would be glad to answer if I can. It's a particularly busy time work wise right now, so my responses may be a bit slow.

The Frogman:

I read the Jazz.com article, and kept thinking, 'Hog Calling Blues' without knowing precisely why!

Are you back now, or just dropping in from time to time? Are you available for questions?

Cheers

Rok, now that we got our Gurus back, all is right in "Jazz Aficionado Land".

Frogman, When I bought "Mingus Ah Um" in 59, I was the only person I knew with an album by Mingus, and I simply bought the LP because I liked the cover. Once my group heard it, they were hooked on Mingus.

Even noise was music to Mingus; tugboat horns on the river, bird calls, and all sorts of other sounds. "A Modern Jazz Symposium of Music and Poetry" is an album that reminded my mother of me, "Why don't yall just let me be cool"! Here's the Wiki low down on the album.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modern_Jazz_Symposium_of_Music_and_Poetry

Here's "New York Sketchbook" from that album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZTR60YlDtg&feature=c4-overview&list=UUERycULxw1_NJ4ux2nh-qgQ

Enjoy the music.

****He should rank at the top of Jazz composers. Right up there with Ellington.****

You're in good company.

Gunther Schuller on Mingus' "Epitaph":

"a musical summary of one of the great jazz composers of the century"

****How does he do that?****

You may find this of interest; by John DeCarlo (Jazz.com)

"Mingus' compositional style matured in New York City during the 1950s. His recording ventures and regular workshops allowed him to thoroughly explore new musical territory, and to bring ideas to life that undoubtedly had been stirring in his mind.

Like Ellington, Mingus saw the need to develop extended forms in jazz. He began to experiment by modifying conventional forms and finding ways to create the sharp contrasts and variety that became trademarks of the Mingus style. Examples of Minguss range and eclecticism can be heard in �Haitian Fight Song� and �Ysabel's Table Dance.�

One of his trademark techniques as a composer was to create rhythmic contrast between sections of a piece by manipulating the time feel and groove. This technique can be found in many examples of his work, and can range from switching between walking bass lines to doubling every note, to more complicated metric modulations and superimposed rhythms.

An element of his compositional style is the blending of measured against unmeasured space in music, to extend forms and create contrast. He often followed precise written and rehearsed passages with sections of undetermined length, employing set musical cues to provide a malleable departure from an established section. This is an idea that is quite prevalent in contemporary compositions, and often one of the only ways for a composer to achieve the desired balance between improvised and composed elements without jeopardizing the cohesive flow of the music.

Another technique Mingus used often was layering many parts consecutively to build tension. In this practice, sections of a given composition consist of layered vamps or repeated musical phrases. One musician leads, providing an introduction, while the others gradually add their respective layers. This creates steady development and flow without departing from the original material. It also leaves standard devices for developing a composition untouched and reserved for other important moments. This technique can be heard on �Moanin�.

Mingus used collective improvisations as a form of written texture. He would give his band members some kind of musical guidelines for a given situation, and essentially have them improvise counterpoint. While this technique may sound to some listeners as a contemporary device, it harkens back to the early forms of improvisation found in New Orleans jazz.

What make this idea seem so fresh in Mingus' music are the arrangements and the musicians' more modern approach to improvisation, sometimes in an atonal context with complex rhythmic variation. He used this to increase tension and support the progressive nature of his forms. Into the early 1960s, Mingus continued to experiment with incorporating free improvisation, rich textures and color and variety through orchestration."

O-10:

Also listened to CD7 of the 100 best set. You are right about the sound quality.

I heard bass on Jimmy Smith's 'Sermon' that actually startled me. :) I was at 'realistic' levels.:) I didn't think my Yorx's had it in them! Great tune, even if Coltranesque in length.

Mingus' 'Better git it in your Soul' Wow! How does he do that! He should rank at the top of Jazz composers. Right up there with Ellington.

And why don't we ever talk about Dinah Washington when discussing Jazz Divas? She has a very distinctive voice.

Ray Charles was Ray Charles!

The set gets better as time goes on. I now stay on the look out for similar sets.

Cheers

O-10:

I listened to this yesterday. Ms Fischer is a great player and a FOX!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56njjw1qtk
Highly recommended.

I also played Bach's Complete Brandenburg Concertos and the Complete Violin Concertos. Played by I Musici. One of my favorite groups. Has Maurice Andre on Trumpet. :) This is one of those Philips Label TWOFERs I spoke of earlier. Great music and a Great bargain!

Clair de Lune? Again, it's one of the most beloved tunes. Great clip, but short. If I have it, it's on some sort of complilation. Stop cherry picking and git yourself into some Bach! He may have been the first Be-Bopper! Or first 'Third Streamer'?? :)

Cheers

Frogman, I alerted my son to your video; he had no idea the sax he used to blow was so intricate. We both agreed that must be the world's most beautiful sax.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, here's another Classical piece that I like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ip64cG7gK4

Enjoy the music.

Learsfool:

Thanks for the post. That was very interesting. One of the reasons I ask all these questions is that, of all the different genres I listen to, and I listen to them all, I find Classical players the most interesting.

I guess because they are the most anonymous. The Conductors and the singers get all the glory and recognition, but the players make all the magic.

They also look and act so 'normal'. Could be the guy next door, or someone's Grandma. And the ages vary by a larger margin than most other musical groups. I often wondered what they, and their careers / musical lives were like.

I looked for the Horne CD on Amazon. I think I will have to settle for a used copy. "like New" :) It's a 3 CD set, so that means the complete Opera. I usually like the 'highlights'. But, if you say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, I will have to get it.

I looked at all my Operas on LP today. Gotta love that cover art. Nothing by Horne, although I do know of her. I have several with Beverly Sills, my first favorite. Street wise NY babe.

I did wiki Horne. Interesting life.

Thanks for the tip and info.

Cheers

Hi everyone - I can't resist commenting on the Carmen. One of the very finest recordings of this, both from a musical and an audiophile standpoint, is the live recording done at the Met with Leonard Bernstein conducting and Marilyn Horne singing Carmen. There is not a better recording out there. Horne is one of the greatest singers ever, and the sonics on it are incredible. On the DG label. One of the truly rare times when the greatest performance was also given the incredible recording it deserved.

Rok, the snare drummer is often placed at the front of the stage in performances of Bolero. It is actually an incredibly difficult thing to do, to keep exact time for the entire duration of that piece, and it is physically very exhausting as well. So although it usually makes them much more nervous being placed in the front and center, they do appreciate the recognition that they have by miles the most difficult task in that piece.

Rok, I think tonight I'll answer your second question, are people ever fired. The very short answer would be yes, it can happen. First off, after winning an audition to get a position in an orchestra, there is a probationary period. In many orchestras this is one year, though in some, it is two years. If the musician is not up to scratch, they are let go at the end of this probationary period. This happens from time to time. Once a musician is tenured, however, it becomes much more difficult to fire them for artistic reasons. Basically, there is a peer review process, much like doctors and lawyers have. It works much the same pretty much everywhere. If the music director wants to fire someone for artistic reasons, they have to first inform the musician of what the problems are, by a certain date in the season. Then the musician has some time to fix the issues. If they have not, in the music director's opinion, then it goes to a peer review board. This is the committee you definitely hope you don't get elected to every season. :) Usually the musician has the option to play for this committee, and they certainly have the opportunity to state their case. The music director states his/her case. Then there is a secret ballot vote. It takes a certain number of votes to overturn the music directors decision - usually, almost the entire committee would have to vote against the conductor to actually overturn it. In many situations, if the committee is very split, then there is another period of time that goes by, after which it is usually the music director's sole decision. This part of the CBA is by miles the most carefully spelled out, as you might imagine.

Usually, though, things don't get that far. Often, the person in question might be asked to "retire", and offered some sort of financial incentive to do so. Another example might be a person who is in a principal position, and they don't want to deal with the stress of that anymore; they may step down into a section position some years before they actually retire.

It is more common for someone to get fired for cause. For instance, someone in the LA Phil calling in sick, but then going to work a lucrative film recording session. Several members of the LA Phil have been fired for this in the last few decades. Musicians have been fired for alcohol/drug problems that affected their performance, in some cases even after being sent to rehab by the orchestra. I know a musician this happened to after he relapsed. Though the orchestra had paid for his rehab the first time, and had tried to help him, they did not do so a second time, and he was fired. He has since cleaned himself up, and is still earning a living free-lancing and teaching.

Of course, it should be Adolphe, not Adolf; hate this spell checker.

You may find this video interesting; it ties together a few themes covered in this thread: the saxophone, Johnny Hodges, Frank Wess and his recent passing, and instrument repair technicians and their love for the instruments.

My saxophone repair technician is the great Tomoji Hirakata in NYC. He was also Frank Wess' technician and I happened to be in Tomoji's shop when Frank brought in Johnny Hodges' alto (which he then owned) for an overhaul. It was easily the most beautiful saxophone that I have ever seen, and to hold and play it for a few moments was an experience that I will be never forget; to think of all the amazing music that Hodges made on that horn defies description. Tomoji made this video of part of the overhaul process (with some commentary by Frank) not only as a tribute to Hodges, but as a tribute to the instrument itself. It's an opportunity to appreciate the unique beauty of this particular saxophone and also to get a close-up look at the mechanical complexity of Adolf Sax's creation.

Enjoy.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad_NFvmyPvA&feature=c4-feed-u

Happy New Year Frogman. I'm glad you're back to continue our musical journey to wherever it leads us.

Enjoy the music.

Happy New Year to all! Glad to see the thread alive and well with some great music clips. Hadn't checked the thread in quite a while, and while not intending to post, this subject is a little too close to home to let a factual error slip by:

The saxophone was not a French creation but the creation of Adolf Sax, a Belgian, who in 1842 moved to Paris from Brussels to demonstrate his new creation to his friend Hector Berlioz who went on to promote the new instrument. Sax's father was also an instrument maker, and Adolf's other major achievement was the development of the bass clarinet to, essentially, what we know today. Interestingly, Sax's first saxophone was a bass saxophone (in C). The instrument gained in popularity pretty quickly and it became almost "de rigueur" for major composers to use the instrument in at least one new work. "Bolero" was one of these with two saxophone parts usually thought to be soprano and tenor. In fact, the parts were written for sopranino and tenor. Due to the relative rarity of the sopranino and the fact that, due to its range, the sopranino has to "hand off" the last several measures of the solo to the tenor, it became common to play the sopranino part on the soprano which is capable of playing the entire melody.

Good listening to all!

Learsfool:

Thanks for the thorough and informative responses. look forward to the others.

O-10: I was listening to 'Louis Armstrong Plays W.C. Handy' this weekend. SACD only. That's music from your neck of the woods.

Cheers

O-10:

*****Rok, after getting me into this Classical, Opera bag, you failed to comment on my responses;*******

I did comment in my head, just forgot to type and send. The CARMEN piece was good. I had not heard it by this singer before. Her last name was von Manteuffel. That was the name of a German General in command oif one of the Army groups that fought in the Ardennes during the battle of the bulge. He was also an olympic Fencing Champion I believe. I wonder if they are related.

I have many CARMEN's, my two favorites are by Callas and excerpts from the film featuring Julia Migenes Johnson and Domingo. Now that's a CARMEN!! I must get that on DVD. Once you read the story line, you will know why Carmen has to be a beauty, and Johnson is that for sure!!:)

BOLERO, is as I said, beloved by all, except the composer. The clip you sent, Berlin/Dudamel, was very good. I see where the snare drummers were very forward. In fact they were in the violin section. I did not know they did that. I assume all orchestras do it given the prominence of the drum in the music, I just have not seen BOLERO on video before.

The condutor, Gustavo Dudamel, is the lastest whiz-kid from Venezuela. He formed a youth orchestra in Venezuela that was very highly regarded. I hope he does not let fAME cause him to abandon that project.

I have two zillion CDs with Bolero included. My go-to copy is by Orchestre de Pairs / Daniel Barenboim. It's French music, and they seem to play it best, to my ear.

If you will notice from the clip, it's one of the few classical pieces with a part for saxophone. The Sax being a French creation, I guess Ravel wanted to give it a little action and exposure.

The Carmen soundtrack I mentioned earlier is also by a French Orchestra. Again, French music.

I liked the music by Chico also, but it was hard to concentrate. I kept expecting / wishing for Liz to have a ' Wardrobe Malfunction' . hhahahahah

Nice clips. Thanks.

Cheers

Learsfool, I want to thank you for answering all the interesting questions Rok asked.

Rok, after getting me into this Classical, Opera bag, you failed to comment on my responses; however, it seems that Learsfool has bailed us out of this morose quandary.

Enjoy the music.

Hi Rok - none of your questions have easy, short answers. I won't attempt to address them all in one response. I think tonight I will concentrate on the last three. #5 is the only easy answer. No one owns orchestras. Like pretty much all arts organizations, all symphonies are non-profits. They have to raise the entire budget all over again every single season. Ticket sales only account for a very small percentage of an orchestra's needed income - usually only about 25% at the very most, often quite a bit under that.

OK, numbers 4 and 6 are directly related, as the main difference between the top tier orchestras and those under them is pay scale. They have the largest budgets, and can pay the most, so they attract the best players when there are openings. They are so called "destination" orchestras - jobs you don't leave once you get one, unless you move to another one of them, which does sometimes happen. As I mentioned before, all of the top tier orchestras have 52 week seasons, which is another difference. Not all of the orchestras in my second tier I listed in that previous orchestras have 52 week seasons anymore. Some of them have been cut back in recent years, sometimes justifiably, sometimes not. That's a whole separate issue I won't go into here.

In all of the major orchestras (and most of the small ones, too), there are collective bargaining agreements, so no two orchestras will pay exactly the same or have exactly the same working conditions. There is always a base salary that most of the rank and file musicians (such as myself) make. Some orchestras also have a modest seniority pay system as well, but most of the people in any given orchestra are making the same pay. The titled people will make overscale, almost always based on a percentage above the base salary, though principals can often negotiate more. The concertmaster traditionally has a separate contract that is quite a bit higher than even the other principals. The music director (conductor), however, is not part of the CBA - they are always considered part of management, and their contracts have nothing to do with the musicians'. They also get paid far more.

In the very biggest orchestras, like the traditional big five you mentioned, for instance, the base salary right now is in the very low six figures - not a whole lot over 100,000 a year. In the second tier orchestras I mentioned, the base salary might be about half of that. In some of the smaller (not full time) orchestras, say those that may play about six or eight concert sets in a year and are composed of free-lance musicians, the total pay might be just a few thousand dollars for the season. Musicians in these type of orchestras are considered "independent contractors" and have no benefits. They are paid "per service," one service being one rehearsal, or one concert. There are also some orchestras that have a full-time, salaried core of players, that are augmented at times by part-time, "per service" free-lancers. Different groups are structured differently, depending largely on budget size. So there are lots of different levels.

I will address your other questions later, hopefully at least one of them tomorrow.

O-10:

Just for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgP0aUKlmNw

Cheers

Learsfool, in pursuit of the Horn and Miles, I heard "Birth of The cool" for the first time. I still can't believe Miles was that far ahead of his time. It's reminiscent of West Coast Jazz that didn't catch on until the late 50's. That would be an ideal project for Horn.

Chico Hamilton also used Horn on some of his albums. This is some music that I think would be ideal for Horn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6uc2pssy34

Enjoy the music.

Learsfool:

Thanks for all the info. Sad to learn that the bright dresses were a one off thing. I liked it. I went to the NYPO site looking for recordings. Slim pickings, but I will check out the other groups.

A few more questions:

(1)What is the normal path for becoming a conductor? I don't recall ever reading anything about the well known conductor's career prior to them becoming conductors. What are the prerequisites?

(2)Are people ever fired for sub-par playing etc...

(3) What sort of turn-over is there in the typical orchestra?. What is the most common cause of vacancies? Is there a waiting list?

(4) What is the FUNDAMENTAL difference between the top and the second tier orchestras.

(5) Who OWNS orchestras?

(6) Pay scale. Who gets what? Ball park.

Thanks for all your time and input.

Cheers

Rok, this is kind of late, but it might stop my torture next year. Christmas is all about "childhood" memories now that I'm and old man. I don't even like the Christmas jazz music in my own collection anymore. Here's a Christmas song that holds fond memories of my youth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSUT8Inl14

Enjoy the music.

Hi Orpheus - that's a nice story. There are good and bad repair guys, sounds like you had a good one. Many musicians will fly across the country to have a certain person work on their instrument. I am lucky to have one of the very best in my immediate area. It's about time for my annual cleaning, now that I think about it.

The best ones are usually former or current players themselves, though the repair would be their main work. Some teach on the side as well.

As for the system you heard there, most musicians that are into hifi gravitate to old school tubes and horn speakers once they have heard them. Still the closest thing out there for reproducing timbre, dynamics, (softs, too) etc. I know a few who like the electrostats, too, but those are much more finicky. Horns are so much easier to deal with. And I agree that much of what is supposedly state of the art really doesn't sound very good at all in comparison, assuming we are talking about reproducing acoustic instruments or voices that were recorded in a good, live space. Folks that only listen to mostly or entirely electronically produced (and studio produced) music will not care so much about the things the old school equipment can do, and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks, depends on what your priorities are.

Leersfool, when I took my son's alto sax to the music store for sale, the owner gave me a price, and told me he would pay a lot more if I took it to the St. Louis Woodwinds and Brass Instrument Repair, and get a clean bill of health.

There was only one person ahead of me when I arrived. Someone was explaining every detail of what was wrong with her horn, and what it would take to repair it.

That can't take but a minute I thought, but he seemed to go on and on. Fortunately the wait was a pleasant one. This was in a very large open room, with a long counter separating the customers from the instrument repair specialists at their separate work stations.

As I sat in a comfortable chair listening to classical music and watching the men at work, I began to experience the calm this place exuded. Whether the person was working on woodwind or brass, he seemed to have an attachment to that particular instrument as he played a few quiet notes for testing. The calm expressions on their faces indicated to me, there was nothing else that they would rather be doing, or no place else they would rather be than here; consequently, what they were doing didn't fit the definition of "work".

Although I'm not particular fond of classical, I liked this music. While I couldn't see the rig, the mellow tube sound that was the antithesis of ARC, indicated it was probably old refurbished electronics. The speakers were custom horn, probably very efficient. I liked this sound much better than what I've heard that was supposedly state of the art.

I had gotten fairly comfortable when, "Can I help you"?

"Yes, I have an alto sax I would like you to go over"

That exchange brought me back to the reason I was there. After examining the horn, he explained every detail that was wrong, and told me I could wait, which I didn't mind at all.

There were photos on the wall of local jazz musicians which I instantly recognized, plus the classical musicians from different venues in the city. All of these photos were of musicians who had their instruments worked on here. There were even photos of world famous musicians. The fact that they all had been here and had their instruments worked on was quite impressive.

When they called me to the counter for the bill, it was less than I expected. After I took the horn to the music store with a clean bill of health, he gave me more than I expected; that was a good day.

Orpheus, to answer your question first - yes, it is normally just called "the horn," and everyone knows that that means French horn. There's really nothing French about it, and no one knows why it acquired that name in the first place. The International Horn Society officially changed the name of the instrument back in the 70s to Horn. Of course, many of the general public are totally unaware of this. But if a classical musician or classical music lover mentions "the horn," they are definitely talking about my instrument (shame on them if not, they should know better, LOL).

Rok - if the women in the NY Phil were wearing brightly colored dresses, this was certainly a special occasion. That is definitely NOT normal, and they do not normally do it, I assure you. Black is the norm, whether very formal or less so sometimes now. I think that was a special New Year's Eve or New Year's Day thing, if I remember?? I did hear about that concert.

The Vienna Phil is pretty much the last standing all-male orchestra, and even they have had a couple of women in their ranks in the last couple of decades. I believe their current harpist is female, but I think that's it at the moment.

There are a great many women in all US orchestras now, and in most around the rest of the world as well. Even on my instrument, the majority of students at the top music schools in the country are female, and this is slowly beginning to be reflected in the professional ranks.

There are many CDs available of many US orchestras, and yes, the best ones are as good as any in the world. Which are the top ten would still generate furious debate (either speaking of the whole world, or just US orchestras). The five you mentioned are the traditional "big five" US orchestras, but there are at least three others who merit very serious consideration (to be in the top five, I mean). The Pittsburgh Symphony is certainly top ten in the world right now, as is the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Other great American orchestras are Minnesota (what is happening there is an absolute travesty), LA, San Francisco, National, Detroit, Atlanta, St. Louis, Dallas, Cincinnati. All of these are considered top tier groups. There are a great many second tier groups which are also world class ensembles - Baltimore, Houston, Nashville, Fort Worth, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Utah. I could go on, I have left a few out. I do play in one of the ones I have listed, though I do not want to say which, as I want to maintain relative anonymity here, so I can feel free to post what I like about conductors, orchestras, musicians, etc., without fear of offending colleagues. I did NOT list these groups in any sort of ranking order, by the way. I have friends in all of them...

About the recordings, most orchestras now self-produce their recordings, so you would need to go to their websites to find current recordings for all but the very largest groups. Also, a great way to check out different orchestras and what they are doing is to see if they stream old concerts, or live ones. Or go online and find their local radio stations that do their broadcasts. You can listen to so many more orchestras nowadays this way than ever before.

Beautiful enough to make even O-10, get 'ligion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkUoxCGPWrw

Cheers

Comments welcomed. I don't have the words!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XIjGei8zG8

Cheers

Rok, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and since I'm a very old dog, that goes double for me; however, I'm trying to find some old tricks, that may be applicable to the new ones you're trying to teach me.

"Carmen" is the very first to come to mind. I recall when I was a preteen, this family with a very beautiful daughter named Carmen, liked to perform this in the park nearby. Although she was a teenager, which made her much older than me, I was in love; consequently, I also fell in love with the opera "Carmen". This family also liked "Bolero", consequently I fell head over heels in love with "Bolero"; here are the both of them. (I was too shy to even speak to Carmen)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPQ2lFUQLrs&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL-wyNyb4oUIHMjqwxFAltjklxWrZZZGS4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KgpEru9lhw

Enjoy the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDzGh9-YaXE&feature=player_embedded

and latter that same Horn player…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oa9Jsqoy3o

Love this particular version of Dave Douglas

Learsfool:

Last Night, the local PBS station aired the New York Philharmonic with Yo-Yo Ma. The program featured music by Osvaldo Golijov, an Argentinian Composer.

The Music was entitled 'Azul'. I thought it was much ado about nothing, but Yo-Yo makes anything sound at least interesting.

After that experiment, they played Tangos by Piazzolla. Ma has made CDs of Tangos before. It was great stuff.

The program ended with Ravel's Bolero. EVERYONE likes Bolero, Except, of course, Ravel!

I noticed that most of the wonem in the Orchestra wore brightly colored dresses. Very nice effect. I contrasted that with DVDs I have recently watched, Vienna, which had NO women, and Berlin, which had their women dressed like the men.

I like the American way much better. I also noticed that it seemed as if more than half of the violin section was female.

How do the top American Orchestras compare with the best Europeans in the world today?? I don't think you can buy CDs by American groups, so I have not heard them recently. Are they still as good as they used to be?

I used to know the names of all the conductors of NY, Boston, Chicago, Cleveland and Philadelphia. Not now.

Cheers

Regular trumpets in use also. :)

Leersfool, although I liked all three, it was apparent that Jim Varner was the baddest, he blows and handles that horn like some of the best jazz tenor sax players.

I sincerely appreciate your input, it's helping me to get a feel for the French horn, or do musicians just say "The horn" and everyone knows they're referring to "the French horn"?

This is the first thing that caught my ear after midnight, it's James Moody's, "Last Train From Overbrook".

Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=028UoUkO7zc

Enjoy the music.

Orpheus - Miles used horn on quite a few of his albums - I believe I have mentioned Birth of the Cool already in this thread. We also discussed horn in jazz quite a while back. I know I have mentioned Julius Watkins and that same album in your first link above. He is the most famous jazz horn player from that era, and probably ever. He was usually what they call a side man, but did record some albums as leader of a group, like that one. Those arrangements, by the way, were all done by Quincy Jones, and the quartet of "back up horns" included two of the most famous classical players in New York at the time, Gunther Schuller and John Barrows. Gunther Schuller is still alive, and still teaching and writing music (he is also a composer). I have met him before, and most hornists own a copy of his famous horn method book.

The third link you posted is Tom Varner, who is currently the leading jazz hornist in the world. There are only a handful of players who make their living doing it, and he is one of them. I haven't ever met him, but we have chatted online on horn websites. Nice guy, and good player.

No idea who the guy in the second link is, and it doesn't say. He is obviously not an improviser, since even though he did write that tune, he is using music (as is the pianist and even that guitar player). That one is not my cup of tea anyway, with the electric guitar and electronic keyboard. Although he is a decent enough player, I was not particularly impressed. Certainly not the level of player (or musician) in the other two links.

Rok - another thing I thought of on the person playing no instrument - it may be the third bassoon/contrabassoon player, who didn't happen to play on that particular piece, but is on stage because he played something else on that half of the program. His instrument is probably on a stand next to him.

O-10:

Start the New Year off right!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNnplwRbS8U

Cheers

Learsfool:

****The problem is the guy who has the music would want to play, and he kinda sucks, so, my friend doesn't want him to play, so he won't loan us the music. Sigh.****

Nothing better than starting the day off with a good laugh! I had to LOL when I read that statement. Haven't heard of that since my play-ground days. It always Seemed as if the guys that could not play very good, owned the ball. Must be a natural law.

Thanks for all the info, esp about the trumpets. I may have asked about the composers before, but I needed to hear it again, to be sure!! No wonder they are called Geniuses.

I looked at the DVD again, and the guy in the headset is there. Right next to the Bassoon players. When the camera zoomed in on the bassoons, there he was. I guess it was some tech thingy since the program was being recorded in audio and video. But he was dressed in white tie. They were playing "Troika", from Lieutenant Kije, if that would mean anything. The DVD was "A Carnegie Hall Christmas Concert"

On the Karajan New Years concert in Vienna, when the camera panned the audience, I was surprised at the number of people that did not applaud after each number. Just set there. After all, this was KARAJAN!!

Thanks again

Cheers

Leersfool, I'm trying to get a handle on French horn and jazz. Although Miles used French horns on "Sketches of Spain" and "Porgy and Bess", they just seemed appropriate parts for a French horn as opposed to "jazz French horn". I would like your evaluation of "jazz French horn" that I discovered on you tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sy0NcSvSaM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM5g6IULCXs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csGCnUgtl4E

Enjoy the music.

Hi Rok: to answer your questions:

1. Not sure what you mean here, exactly, without seeing it. Doesn't make much sense, frankly. I am assuming it is not a singer? Are you sure it is headphones and a mike?

2. You are seeing rotary-valve trumpets. The same type of valves used on my instrument, the French horn. They have a darker sound, and are more widely used in Europe than they are over here, though sometimes players here will use them, especially in rep like Brahms where they want a darker sound.

3. Yes. Always. There are a couple of exceptions which I believe we discussed long ago in this thread, if I am remembering correctly. Baroque musicians add ornaments to their parts in certain places, and the continuo part was always improvised by the keyboardist - only the bass notes and the chord symbols were provided. Another exception would be the cadenza of a concerto, which in the classical and even into the romantic era would be made up on the spot by the soloist, just like jazz improvisation, except the melodies will be based on melodies in the movement in question, though the harmonies are often changed radically. There are still some soloists who do this in performance today, though not many anymore. But for exceptions like these, however, the answer to your question is a flat yes, until well into the twentieth century, when composers started experimenting with "chance" music, etc.

To elaborate further, the same would go for film music, unless it is someone like Morricone, who wrote many of the spaghetti westerns. All he did was write the melodies and harmonies, and someone else orchestrated it.

And as I am pretty sure we have discussed long ago in this thread, even in jazz the only thing truly being improvised normally are the solos - and these are almost always based on standard tunes - very little is truly freely improvised, someone making up whatever they want. All the musicians know the chord structures used in the tunes, so even jazz is not so mysterious as it may seem. They even have things called "Fake Books" which are books that have the chord structures of all the tunes - these are particularly useful in the case of performers who are not in a regular group, thrown together for a gig, maybe none of them have even played together before. They would discuss ahead of time which tunes they will do (or even during breaks on the gig, before the next set), and reference a Fake Book if they need to. Instrumentation is generally much more flexible in jazz as well. Now in a big band, for example, everything would be written out for everyone except the solos. This is even done on something like Miles Davis Birth of the Cool, where you have a larger ensemble - much of that was written out. There were a couple of horn players on that album, by the way. A friend of mine is trying to put a group together to recreate that album, and I hope to participate if that ever happens. The problem is the guy who has the music would want to play, and he kinda sucks, so, my friend doesn't want him to play, so he won't loan us the music. Sigh.

Since one of our Gurus who wasn't gone is back, I'm going to look into his suggestions, as well as yours. While opera and classical music are new to me, it could be an interesting adventure; you lead and I'll follow.

Enjoy the music.

O-10:

Nice enough tune, by Gato Barbieri. Don't know If I could listen to an entire album. Listened to the Soundtrack of 'Last Tango in Paris'. Don't see what all the hype is about there either.

In the early 70's, I was in El Paso, jamming with WAR and EW&F etc... A Jazz wasteland, although WAR did do a 'Jazz' album. During that time, I did get to hear some good live Jazz in Tucson. Great party town then.

Didn't fully get back on board with Jazz until 1977, when back in Europe.

I do have Gato Barbieri on LP, but he didn't make the cut to CD.

Cheers

O-10:
I agree about the quality of the recordings. In fact, when I first heard them, I assumed something was wrong with them. Maybe the high frequencies were missing or something like that. Nothing that cheap, could sound that good. But, you got it right.

Cheers

The Learsfool:

All of your comments on Opera were excellent. I remembered Mozart the moment I hit the 'submit' button. But, as we are just getting started, and, as in Jazz, you gotta get them hooked first. I will save him for a later day.

Questions:

(1) I have recently aquired a few Classical DVDs. I noticed in each of them, a man sitting in the middle of the orchestra wearing a headphone with mike thingy. He was dressed as a member but did not have an instrument. What is that all about? His purpose?

(2) I noticed that the trumpets look different than those I am used to. The keys / valves are now horizontal, not vertical. What's that all about? Why the change?

(3) When a composer writes a piece music, say one of Beethoven's symphony, does he write the part, every note, for each and every instrument in the entire Orchestra?

Thanks

Cheers

O-10:
Classical recommendations, to get you started.

Orchestral:
Beethoven 5&7 - Wiener Philharmoniker / Carlos Kleiber
Beethoven 9th - Wiener Philharmoniker / Karl Bohm with Jessye Norman, Brigitte Fassbaender and Placido Domingo

Mozart - There is just so much here!! But you gotta start somewhere. Two that I own: Symphonies 25,26,27,29 & 32 Academy of St Martin-in-the Fields / Neville Marriner
And Symphonies 35 - 41, Berliner / Karl Bohm. Mozart's symphonies were short compared to most others.

Chamber:

I would recommend any one of the Mozart 'Philips Duo' series. You get a composer's 'complete' works on two cds, for the price of one. Such as complete violin concertos, or complete Piano sonatas etc.... On the Philips label. Top tier performers and performances. Best bargains in Classical music. Found on Amazon.

That should hold you until your next be-bop attack!

These recommendations are not meant to be the definitive performances. And are just two, of many, many, Classical Composers. Just a good starting place.

Remember this, A true Jazz Aficionado, will love classical music also. :)

Cheers

Rok, we never even got to the 70's. While I liked what we've been into, this was just the beginning of "modern jazz"; it had to evolve, and so it did. As a matter of fact, when a current jazz artist attempt to resurrect that music, it sounds redundant and unoriginal to me.

While jazz evolved in the 70's, it was still jazz. The first of many artists that emerged in this time frame, that I would like to cover is "Gato Barbieri"; his soundtrack for "Last Tango In Paris" received widespread acclaim. This is from an LP I was listening to, I think you'll like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UAT_nV9gl0

Enjoy the music.

LOL, Rok - no sulking or pouting going on here! Haven't had a lot of time to be on this site over the holidays. If you like tenors, probably my all time favorite would be Jussi Bjorling, a Swedish tenor from the 50's early 60's. I have several of his LPs, and I am sure there are plenty of youtube things if you want to check him out that way. Fantastic voice, along with incredible musicianship and fabulous breath control. Try to find one of his recordings of Nessun Dorma.

Puccini in general is a good place for opera newbies to start. Tosca is probably my favorite, other super popular ones are La Boheme, Madame Butterfly.

A glaring omission from your short list would be Mozart. A great first opera is his comedy The Marriage of Figaro. Also Don Giovanni, though that's not a comedy (has many very funny moments, though). The Magic Flute is one of the most sublime operas ever written, though some find the story very silly.

I hope you like these, if not, you may find it rough going in Opera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTFUM4Uh_6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLP1951ZxIE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kbi1EMcD3E

Cheers

The easy part first: OPERA :)

Don't jump in, stick your big toe in first! To see if you really like opera singing I will recommend ones I own.

PAVAROTTI'S GREATEST HITS

Has him at his peak (1980) singing the greatest Arias from the greatest Operas. This is a 2-CD set on the Decca label. On Amazon for $12.25!! This is great singing period! Placido Domingo has a few CDs of this type also. There is a reason excerpts of Operas are produced, because all you really need is the Arias. The rest of it, you have to be there to enjoy or 'get it'.

On the Soprano front:

Maria Callas, Jessye Norman, Kathleen Battle et al, have similar records. Not the whole Opera, just the 'good parts'. :) I have, and recommend:

Maria Callas -- LA DIVINA 3

To my taste, the Tenor Arias in Operas are much more enjoyable than the Sopranos.

If you like any of these, remember always get the 'highlights' of the Opera. I would start with the popular stuff like, TOSCA, CARMEN, and BARBER of SEVILLE.

A little Opera goes a long way with me, so I don't stray too far from the well known stuff.

Don't forget Opera on DVD. I just received The Barber of Seville with Kathleen Battle at the Met. Have not watched it yet. Will let you know.

Will send Classical recommendations later.

Cheers