Jazz for aficionados

Leerfool, and Frogman, did you overlook the post on Stan Kenton; could you comment on the special brass horns especially, and his music in general.

Frogman, this is not an intellectual course in jazz. To make a long story short, in regard to many musician's music who play what's called jazz, "ain't got none, and don't wont none"

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I can feel that this is going down a treacherous road (for an Internet discussion).

****That would be easy to do. There are not that many players that 'must be' mentioned in a history or comprehensivbe discussion of Jazz. A small percentage.****

Exactly!! The notion that a player like Lytle deserves to be mentioned more than Goodman is, with all due respect, somewhat absurd.

****In fact, I am not sure they played Jazz at all. They all took solos, and displayed great skill on their instrument, but I am not sure that much 'improvisation' was going on.****

THAT, my friend, is why it's not possible to "know too much"; and why knowing a little is a dangerous thing. It's fine to always fall back on the comfort of "subjectivity", but in the broad scheme there is, in fact, a nut-and -bolts way judging any music's merit.

All this music was part of the melting pot, and part of the "continuum"; and it it certainly is "jazz".

****A lot of people were accepted as being things, that they were in fact, not!!****

I could not have said it better myself.

Regards.

O-10, thanks for the sentiment; the feeling is mutual.

While I completely agree with you that music is subjective (well, more accurately, one's reaction to music is subjective) I don't know on what you base the comment that jazz is more subjective than any other form of music or that a reaction to a particular player's ability that differs from yours means that there is, necessarily, anything but subjectivity at play (pun intended). There is as much variety of opinion and disagreement about the merits of, say, classical music players and performances than there is of jazz. We all have a tendency to consider our preferred style of music unique, and while every genre clearly has many subjective stylistic (subjective) traits, at their core, all genres share similar values; not every aspect of music and performance is subjective. We have set a very high bar by discussing the very best players of this music and I simply didn't hear anything special in Lytle's playing on the two clips posted. So, to paraphrase you: "what I hear disagrees with what I read about Lytle, so the records go back".

Jazz players and income: Clearly Wynton is an exception. My comments were a reaction to your statement: "When an artist is popular and makes a good living, he can't be playing jazz". As we all know, Bird lived a troubled life and squandered much of his earnings on booze and drugs, but the truth is that "popular" jazz artists did and do make very good livings. Of course, there are many players who scrape by; but, they are not "popular"; and isn't that true of any profession? Louis Armstrong made a good living, so did Coltrane, Rollins, Miles, Shorter, and Benny Goodman. Speaking of Benny, there is so much great stuff by him, these clips also feature the great Lionel Hampton; NOT the world's greatest vibist :-). I would be glad to "enlighten":

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ptPK7iNweI

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aeg1056UDck

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8a-s4bYfY

******* I don't understand how a truly comprehensive discussion on jazz can take place without substantial mention and discussion of players like Goodman, Artie Shaw, Harry James and others from that period.*****

That would be easy to do. There are not that many players that 'must be' mentioned in a history or comprehensivbe discussion of Jazz. A small percentage.

The Label, BLUE NOTE, for instance, is more important to Jazz than any of the people you mentioned. In fact, I am not sure they played Jazz at all. They all took solos, and displayed great skill on their instrument, but I am not sure that much 'improvisation' was going on.

*****The level of artistry, within that style, is fabulous; not to mention their contribution to paving the way for the more modern players.*********

Technically proficient? Without a doubt. But so was Maurice Andre, and any number of players in classical Orchestras. They just don't play Jazz.

To paraphrase a very popular bumper sticker down here in the Bible Belt:

No Blues, No Jazz
Know Blues, Know Jazz

Pretty much sums it up.

And Shaw's 'begin The Beguine' is one of my all time favorite tunes. All these guys made great music. Great Swing and big Band music.

In fact, I had heard a LOT of Harry James and Goodman, before I ever heard ANY Miles or Morgan or Hubbard et al. Maybe that's indicative of the problem. A lot of people were accepted as being things, that they were in fact, not!!

Cheers

Frogman, "I love Benny and that style of music in general. Personally, I don't understand how a truly comprehensive discussion on jazz can take place without substantial mention and discussion of players like Goodman, Artie Shaw, Harry James and others from that period. The level of artistry, within that style, is fabulous; not to mention their contribution to paving the way for the more modern players. I would like to see more of it on this thread."

Would you be so kind as to enlighten us, you have the floor.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, as always, I appreciate your comments. All music is subjective, and jazz is more subjective than most genres of music. I approach music from a purely subjective point of view; while I read history, I listen to music; consequently, when what I read disagrees with what I hear, the book goes in the library, while the music goes in the record collection.

Johnny Lytle's "St. Louis Blues" comes on slow and easy, like that St. Louis woman with her diamond ring; and I know a lot about them. I believe Rok stated the case for Johnny Lytle quite eloquently.

Charlie Parker and the other giants of jazz that "Nica" supported made a lousy living. Although Wynton makes a fantastic salary, he's an exception.

While I'm quite aware of Benny Goodman, Harry James, and Artie Shaw; as close as my music collection will come is Stan Kenton. His big band is well represented in my collection, and his range of music is as wide as the Pacific Ocean. I know Rok remembers when he was in the Columbia Record Club, and we received those records we didn't order, but you could send them back; well Kenton's records didn't go back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3EkI3ISz28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN9sp6ApX4o

Here are a couple of tunes by Stan, maybe Leersfool could enlighten us on the unusual brass horns.

Enjoy the music.

Johnny Lytle:
Dang!! The Frogman is a hard taskmaster.
Lytle is a 'soul-Jazz' player. The 'groove' is the thing. Almost like instrumental R&B. And, as you yourself have done in the past, to indicate a player's ability: He played with Armstrong, Lionel Hampton, Miles, Nancy Wilson, and Bobby Timmons etc.... And recorded over 30 albums.

The bells on 'Summertime'? I don't know what that was. St Louis Blues? I liked the tempo and the 'groove'. This is not 'Giant Steps' type improvisation. Was not even the intent. Lounge music.

Give Mr Lytle some love! :)

Cheers

A few comments about some recent clips and mentions:

Rok, Benny "At Carnegie Hall" was my very first jazz record. I don't know how obvious it's been based on past posts, but I love Benny and that style of music in general. Personally, I don't understand how a truly comprehensive discussion on jazz can take place without substantial mention and discussion of players like Goodman, Artie Shaw, Harry James and others from that period. The level of artistry, within that style, is fabulous; not to mention their contribution to paving the way for the more modern players. I would like to see more of it on this thread.

I am sure O-10 meant the comment as a generalization, and I certainly don't know what he considers a "good living", but while it is true that many jazz artists didn't get their due, just as many made very good livings. Going back in time, and speaking of Benny, sidemen in his band (and others) made upper-middle-class incomes, and the leaders did very well. Today, someone like Wynton, makes in excess of 2 million a year, and sidemen in his band have incomes in excess of $200k.

Grover is one of the "pop" saxophone players who consistently receives the respect of other musicians; he can really play! His recording of Operatic arias "Aria" is beautiful and shows a sensitivity that so many pop saxists don't have. Highly recommended.

My grandmother used to say: "if you don't have anything positive to say...."

I wish I could share my fellow enthusiasts' enthusiasm for Johnny Lytle. I find his playing rudimentary and lacking in sophistication. There are various reasons why some players fade into obscurity; in this case the reason is obvious IMO. His improvising on "St Louis Blues" is almost like that of a young jazz student in music school; he doesn't make all the changes and resorts to the same blues scale over the changing harmonies. He may have "speed"; but, so what? He uses way too much sustain pedal which makes his playing sound "swimmy". And what is up with those xylaphone (bells) at the end of "Summertime"? Huh?

OK, how do I really feel about .....?

O-10:

I was not aware of Johnny Lytle. The clips were awesome! Esp 'St Louis Blues'. In the manner of Ray Charles, he played it so slow, it made you wanna scream! Both were great.

There is quite a bit of his stuff on Amazon. I will look for the one with St Louis Blues for sure. And since I now know a little history of him, it's a slam dunk for me.

See, there are 'undiscovered' gems right here in the USA!

BTW, as I was reading your post, Lou Rawls, singing 'Saturday Night Fish Fry' was in the player. It features Lionel Hampton!! Love the vibes.

Thanks for the find. I get the Baroness' book tomorrow.

Cheers

Rok, here is a musician we haven't covered, "Johnny Lytle".

Life and career[edit]Lytle grew up in Springfield, Ohio in a family of music, the son of a trumpeter father and an organist mother. He began playing the drums and piano at an early age. Before studying music in earnest, he was a boxer, and was a successful Golden Gloves champion. During the late '50s, Lytle continued to box, but landed jobs as a drummer for Ray Charles, Jimmy Witherspoon and Gene Ammons. Then he switched from drums to vibraphone and toured with organist Hiram "Boots" Johnson from 1955 to '57. He formed his first group in 1957 with saxophonist Boots Johnson, organist Milton Harris and drummer William "Peppy" Hinnant. He impressed the Grammy award-winning producer Orrin Keepnews who signed him to his Jazzland label in 1960.

Lionel Hampton, considered one of the top vibes players in the world, said Lytle was "the greatest vibes player in the world." Lytle was known for his great hand speed and showmanship. He was also a songwriter, penning many of his own hits, including "The Loop," "The Man," "Lela," "Selim," and the jazz classic "The Village Caller." Lytle recorded more than 30 albums for various jazz labels including Tuba, Jazzland, Solid State and Muse. Throughout his career he performed and recorded with jazz greats including Louis Armstrong, Lionel Hampton, Miles Davis, Nancy Wilson, Bobby Timmons and Roy Ayers. Lytle was such an admirer of the music of Miles Davis that he wrote "Selim" (Miles spelled backwards) in honor of Davis. He also featured his son, Marcel Lytle, on several recordings, as a vocalist and drummer.

Lytle never recorded with any of the major record labels and that could be why he never gained the status of a jazz icon like some of his peers. Feeling he would lose control of his music and creative development; he played what came natural to him, and being with a major label might not have afforded him that opportunity.

He found success early in his career with chart-topping albums like A Groove, The Loop, and Moonchild. From his swinging uptempo tracks to his soul-satisfying ballads, Lytle knew how to keep a groove. And with a nickname like "Fast Hands," he could always keep the attention of an audience. In addition to his musicianship, his gregarious personality made him a popular attraction on the jazz circuit. Even though he did not experience the same success he was privileged to during the '60s, he did continue to record and build a respectable catalog of music with recordings in the '70s,'80s and '90s.

Lytle remained a popular concert attraction in the U.S. and Europe; his last performance was with the Springfield (Ohio) Symphony Orchestra in his hometown on November 18, 1995. He was survived by his wife Barbara Jean Lytle, his son Marcel Anthony (of Atlanta), Michael-Lamont (of Toronto), and daughter Ayo Michelle Hagans (of Springfield) At the time of his death, Lytle was scheduled to begin recording a new CD on the Muse label. In his hometown of Springfield, Ohio, the street where he used to live was renamed Johnny Lytle Avenue in his honor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inv1dVgOe9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcBVTVgSu_U

These are standards I found by him on "You tube". He did a tune back in the 60's that really caught my ear, but I can't think of the name of the tune; don't you find that aggravating. I guess it's called getting young.

Enjoy the music.

Brazil 77 was released in 71, no wonder it sounds so close to Brazil 66; whatever, Brazil doesn't get any better than that.

Enjoy the music.

It's a funny thing Rok, just before I read your post I was listening to jazz on a didgeridoo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didgeridoo

Too bad I couldn't find it on "you tube", Australia's not far from Papua New Guinea; I'll have to find what they jam over there.

Enjoy the music.

Lest you folks think I am some sort of Xenophobe. It don't get better than this. What voices! And this is right down the road from the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MTmGnolbs

Cheers

****"Gypsy Jazz"! Just when I thought I had heard it all, Acman3, you come up with something new; I like it.*****

I can't wait until you get to Papua New Guinea Head-hunter 'Jazz'. Maybe you, The Frogman, and Acman3 could then fly over and catch a few shows.

I hear their instrumentation is rather limited, but boy, do they get down!!

Cheers

O-10:

I remember back in the day when heart transplants were a lot more iffy and rarer than they are today, a famous doctor listened to 'Inside Moves' by Grover washington jr, while performing a transplant. Blew my mind!

That's what I call a Jazz Lover!!

I have 'Mister Magic' and 'Then and Now'. I also have 'winelight' which I have on the Pop rack. He did a few records with a non-Jazz guy whose name I cannot recall now. I suspect he was a lot of folks entry into the world of Jazz.

Nice clips

Cheers

Learsfool:

Yes I have the Peterson CD. The 'story' about the Doctor was just me messin' with The Frogman.

I only mentioned the 'all the notes' thingy because I was pretty sure it was Paganini and his '24 Caprices'. Which from what I read, gives you classical folks a bit of trouble. So I thought there was a chance some of the notes were missed, which would be astounding to me!

But it was probably as you said, just a repeat thing or the conductor's shortening of the work.

Cheers

Rok, the Oscar Peterson at the Concertgebouw album is a good one, if you are not familiar with it already. I would definitely second that recommendation.

Frogman definitely answered your orchestral questions very nicely. I would agree with his speculation about #3 having to do with optional passages, or more likely, actual cuts in the music that were NOT specified by the composer. Another even stronger possibility would be repeats designated by the composer that were not observed, thus messing with the form of the work. Many, in fact most conductors often omit some repeats in Classical era symphonies, for example, which would have horrified the composers of these works - Mozart has some hilarious comments on the subjects in his letters. Frankly, I agree with him. In my opinion, it does mess with the intended form and balance of the composition, and I personally believe all of those repeats should be observed, as they were back in the day. When they are not, for instance in the symphonies of Brahms and others in the Romantic era, the audience is literally not hearing some of the notes he wrote that are played only if the repeat is going to be made, but are not played in the continuation. That's maybe not very clear, but hopefully you get the meaning. I think that this is what the reviewers are most likely referring to, and that it has nothing to do with the technical ability of the players, but with the choice of the conductor not to observe a repeat.

Today's listen:

Benny Goodman -- BENNY GOODMAN LIVE AT CARNEGIE HALL

2cd Set. Recorded in 1938. The liner notes say this is one of the most important Jazz concerts ever. Sort of like a coming out party for Jazz in the presence of Polite Society and at a big time venue. Not to mention that it seems to have been a totally integrated affair. Not a trivial thing in 1938. Goodman was courageous that way.

A lot of big time players here. The Goodman Band, parts of the Basie and Ellington Bands.

Some of the more notables include:
Goodman, Basie, Teddy Wilson, Lionel Hampton, Johnny Hodges, Cootie Williams, Lester Young, Buck Clayton, Harry James, Gene Krupa and others.

The music is good and played with enthusiasm. The entire effort is let down by the recording. It's uneven. Not much noise, but the volume seems to come and go at random, and sometimes the soloists fade.

A later reissue on CD brings out the music a little better, but more noise along with it. I guess we can say it would be the 'audiophile' edition.

All great tunes. My favorites were 'bei mir bist du schon', 'sing sing sing' and 'honeysuckle rose'. Krupa shines on Sing Sing sing.

It's a shame events like this were let down by the technology of the day.

It was a significant event, and I am glad I have it. Jazz lovers into more modern sounds, and not that much into the history of the music, can probably pass.

Cheers

"Take two back-beats and call me in the morning" :-)

The Frogman:

Thanks for the info. If I run across the magazine with the 'all the notes' thingy I will let you know.

I called my personal Physician today. She is a Jazz lover also. Told her I had absorbed a full dose of European pseudo-Jazz. She said the best antidote is to immeediately listen to the real deal.

She prescribed 'Oscar Peterson Trio at The Concertgebouw', with Herb Ellis on guitar. And, if needed, Wes Montegomery's 'Smokin' at the half note'

Didn't need Wes. Brother Herb was the cure. :)

Cheers

Rok,

1) No. Although there are traditional seating arrangements for certain sections, certain instrument sections may be positioned differently according to the particular orchestra's traditions, a particular conductor's wishes, or a particular work's requirements per the composer. Although as concerns a particular work's requirements (usually a modern work) "all bets are off", orchestral seating arrangements that seldom change are:

- 1rst violins: left/front
- woodwinds: center/ front to back with horns usually closer to center behind woodwinds
- brass: right/rear
- percussion across the left to right/ rear

Seating for 2nd violins, violas, celli and basses can vary. In opera orchestras, because of the shallowness of most "pits" seating varies even more.

2) Most members are permanent. "Auxiliary" instruments (bass clarinet, piccolo, harp) in major orchestras, with a few exceptions (saxophone), are also permanent. In orchestras with smaller budgets they are not.

3) Given the amazing level of proficiency in today's orchestras there is little chance of an unusually technically demanding work not being executed to near perfection (technically); and, it certainly would not be acceptable if that were the case. That wasn't always the case with earlier recordings of the modern repertory on which one can sometimes hear the players struggling with difficult passages. However, it is not clear from the "every note heard" comment wether the reviewer refers to the execution of the parts or (more likely) to wether that particular recording or performance includes a passage or section of music that, either because of traditional performance practice, or the composer's designation as "optional".

BTW, was I pulling your leg? :-)

When an artist is popular and makes a good living, he can't be playing jazz, his music must have a qualifier; like "soul Jazz".

Grover Washington was popular, and his music was "jazz" without any qualifier. All jazz musicians in the past have given their versions of popular tunes without getting the title of "soul jazz musician"; whatever, as long as he was able to take it to the bank.

Here are two of my favorite tunes by Grover:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i80HVojYPdA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUFd3c2HZvI

Enjoy the music.

Django?

You guys!! Always pulling my leg. But I must admit, you had me convinced you were serious for a while. :)

Cheers

To anyone:

(1) Do all symphony Orchestras utilize the same seating arrangement? I.E. are all the different instruments seated in the same place relative to the conductor in all orchestras?

(2) Are all memebers permanent? What about instruments that may not have parts in most symphonies. Harp? Are they full time employees?

(3) And lastly, this has been driving me nuts. Both BBC and Gramophone magazines have a monthly article where they discuss and make recommendation on a particular piece of music. They will review several performances and give their take on each, including ones to avoid.

While reading one of these articles I THINK, I read the following. "and for those of you that DEMAND THAT EVERY NOTE BE PLAYED", they then named a CD.

I think it was Paganini. My question is this: Is it ever 'acceptable' or permitted, or even expected, that all of the notes of ANY piece of music will not be played? Even by a soloist.

Cheers

"Gypsy Jazz"! Just when I thought I had heard it all, Acman3, you come up with something new; I like it.

Enjoy the music.

Too hip for the room! :-)

Lawd, Lawd, my burden is great!

Cheers

He wrote many good tunes. His best known is "Nuages" which O-10 posted a link to above; it's been recorded by many jazz greats. "Minor Blues" is another one, as is "Belleville". If this ain't jazz:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nS2ylPAUxzA

What do you call this? (Notice the great similarities):

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xiWCUIY6ClQ

Rok's comments about Louis Armstrong above are particularly appropriate. From The Louis Armstrong House Museum:

*****In 1930, Django's friend Emile Savitry played for him Armstrong's new recording of "Dallas Blues," Accord to Savitry, when Django heard it, he broke down weeping, holding his head in his hands and exclaiming in the Romani language, "Ach moune," or in English, "My brother." Here is the recording that changed the life of Django--and the guitar--completely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=789Co-Ad1AY

Django Reinhardt is most definitely considered a jazz guitarist, and a great many jazz musicians have great respect for him, including a couple of very good friends of mine. Personally, I tend to dislike any form of electronic music, so the electric guitar is no favorite of mine. I believe Reinhardt also wrote quite a few good tunes, Frogman am I totally off base on that??

I was going to play a little Hot Club of Detroit and ran smack dab into this singer I had not heard of.

With the Hot Club of Detroit….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-bGLGb-_Hw

With Friends…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8htJVyavMvo

A lot of good Jazz from her on youtube.

****there was one odd pea in the patch in that compilation we got, and his name is "Django Reinhardt". The book says 'Nuages' reflects his interest in bebop; I can't hear it. While I like Django's music, it's certainly vastly different from the rest of the 99 tunes.******

The reason for this is because the music he played was not Jazz as we know it. He was a Gypsy musician. Played the guitar.

I think he was considered a JAZZ player in early 20th century Europe, because they didn't know what else to call it. It didn't sound French, and he didn't look French.

In many places the word Jazz has has meanings, usually negative, much different from what we now think of Jazz. Often it was just a catch-all for music out side of the norm. Esp it it was fast and sounded exotic.

Raed the Wiki thingy, and you will see what I mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt

As the Germans always said "If you can't goose step to it, it must be Jazz" :)

Cheers

Rok, there was one odd pea in the patch in that compilation we got, and his name is "Django Reinhardt". The book says 'Nuages' reflects his interest in bebop; I can't hear it. While I like Django's music, it's certainly vastly different from the rest of the 99 tunes.

“The Quintet of the Hot Club of France” was a jazz group founded in France in 1934 by guitarist Django Reinhardt and violinist Stéphane Grappelli, and active in one form or another until 1948.

One of the earliest and most significant continental jazz groups in Europe, the Quintette was described by critic Thom Jurek[1] as "one of the most original bands in the history of recorded jazz." Their most famous lineup featured Reinhardt, Grappelli, bassist Louis Vola, and rhythm guitarists Roger Chaput and Joseph Reinhardt (Django's brother) who filled out the ensemble's sound and added occasional percussive effects.

Maybe Frogman and Leersfool can chime in on "Django". While I could listen to his music all night, it's different from "American jazz", that's my only point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY0FF4iR9Cw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCJ5E8AnlWk

Enjoy the music.

O-10:

Before you posted, I was listening to R&B you-tubes and ran across Horace Silver playing 'Nica's Dream'. Thought you might also find this interesting. Apparently Monk died at a house she owned also. This woman was on pace to wipe out be-bop!! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonica_de_Koenigswarter

So to recap, within the last several post we have:
Battle, von Stade and Marsalis making magic at Carnegie Hall, and just down the street we have a future Fed Chairman running around a hotel lobby naked, and around the block we have two winos lolling around inside a Sport Bently 'Guarding it'. What a place! Reminds me of the Last Poets' 'New York, New York, the BIGGG Apple.

hahahh all in jest, of course.

Cheers

Today's Listen:

Louis Armstrong & Duke Ellington --
THE COMPLETE LOUIS ARMSTRONG & DUKE ELLINGTON SESSIONS

Armstrong(vocal, trumpet),Ellington(p),Bigard(c)Trummy Young(tb), Mort Herbert(b), Danny barcelona(d)

This is amazing. 17 tunes. All written by Ellington and ALL are now, instantly recognizable standards. What other musician could even attempt this?

When you listen to this CD it makes all other players seem just a little bit lesser. Now we are really hearing musical greatest. Closer to the holy grail.

Seems as if the closer you get to the source, the less clutter. Everything just seems clearer and simpler. It seems as if Duke's music was made, to be sung by Armstrong.
What a voice!

Armstrong sings and plays on almost all of the tunes. Starts with a swinging 'Duke's Place' and ends with a beautiful 'Azalea'. Nothing but magic in between.

Curiously, no saxophone appears.

Ain't got it? Why Not?? Go to your room!!!

Cheers

Rok, "Nica's Dream", has been my favorite tune for ages, my favorite jazz musician died in "Nica's" apartment, and until recently, I didn't know any more about her than you or Frogman.

Although she was disowned by the family, she got her share of the money. Nica traded a long Rolls in for the sport Bentley in order not to lose any races down 5th Avenue around midnight. Picture a long cigarette holder, a mink coat, a sport convertible Bentley, and you got Nica.

I was trying to present Nica's point of view, but you made me realize, I'm still quite "animalistic". The fact that the only person she was alone with was Monk's 9 year old son, when he was with her on mercy missions to help other jazz musicians; rent, food, and she even nursed Coleman Hawkins when he refused to go to the hospital; might account for her lack of intimacy.

The lady soaked in a tub with only a cigarette in that long cigarette holder to keep her company, while she listened to some of the very same musicians we just acquired on "The 100 best tunes of the 50's", having a jam session downstairs. (They always gave "The Baroness" the respect they felt she was entitled to, whatever she did)

Nica lived for the moment, and her life after she became "The Jazz Baroness" was one continues set. She told one of her nieces to meet her at a club: "How will I recognize the club"?

"Look for the car" was Nica's response. The niece instantly recognized the club, it was the the one with the badly parked Bentley in front, that had two winos lolling around on the leather seats. "They keep anyone from stealing the car", she was told after finding Nica. This was in a tiny basement club, where Nica was the only white person in the joint.

"Smoking a cigarette in a long black filter, her fur coat draped over the back of a spindly chair, Nica gestured to an empty seat, and picking up a teapot from the table, poured something into two chipped china cups. We toasted each other silently. I'd been expecting tea. Whisky bit into my throat; I choked and my eyes watered. Nica threw back her head and laughed."

"Thanks", I croaked. She put her finger to her lips, and nodding at the pianist on stage, said "Sssh, just listen to the music Hannah, just listen", as she swayed to the sounds.

Now you know why I'm so fascinated by Nica.

Enjoy the music.

Learsfool, agree about that record. Fantastic!

Hi guys, been away from this board for a few days. Frogman, that was a very interesting Ornette Coleman clip, never seen that before.

Rok - you recently reviewed perhaps my favorite Ella album - the 40th Birthday Concert. If anyone out there reading this has not heard that, it is a must. There are so many great moments in that. No other jazz singer has ever sounded anywhere near as good, IMO.

Yes, THAT Greenspan. In Leonard Garment's (attorney and top advisor to Nixon during Watergate) biography "Crazy Rhythm: From Brooklyn And Jazz To Nixon's White House, Watergate, And Beyond", there is a very funny picture of a big band; in the reed section, at opposite ends, are the tenor players: Leanard Garment and Alan Greenspan.

Agree re Ayn Rand.

The Frogman:

Are we talking about Federal Reserve, Greenspan? If so, I guess I could see him playing tenor sax, in his younger days.

***“The worst part of Ms. Rand's parties was Mr. Greenspan running around naked in the lobby.”***

That would be the worst part of anything I can imagine. That's too awful to contemplate, even by New York standards. Unless, he under-went one hell of a metamorphosis from youth to old age.

The Baroness definitely had better taste in Be-Boppers. :)

Of course, Ms Rand was no raving beauty. But a brilliant mind!

Cheers

“She really liked younger men. Sometimes we would take off our clothes and listen to jazz.”
~ Alan Greenspan on Ayn Rand

Rok, in case you didn't know, Alan Greenspan was a jazz tenor player.

“The worst part of Ms. Rand's parties was Mr. Greenspan running around naked in the lobby.”
~ Doorman at 36 E 36th Street on Ayn Rand

:-)

O-10:

The Ursula Dudziak clip was interesting, but not my thing. Why does she have trouble with words?

I see she was born in Poland in 1943. Tough time and place to be born!

If you have three books by and about the Jazz Baroness, you must find her very interesting. I think I saw her on the documentary about Monk.

She was 'married off', by her family, to a French control freak. Can you image what that was like? Came to America and didn't go back. I don't blame her. She was disowned by the family, but apparently she got her share of the money. I think "Rothschild" means money, in all languages. Drove a Bentley!

Were they having sex? Here is a multiple choice answer.
1. Yes
2. Absolutely
3. Without doubt
4. all of the above

These were Jazz Musicins!! And that does not make them 'animalistic'!!! hahhhahah Your Baptist is showing. :)

I have quite a few books by Ayn Rand, my favorite author. She changed my outlook on life. I bet she loved Jazz.

Cheers

Rok, I've got three books by and about "Nica". "Three Wishes" is the only one worth the freight. From a story book point of view, her life was far more interesting before she became "The Jazz Baroness".

The rumors that she was intimate with "black" jazz musicians constantly swirled around her; especially after Bird died in her apartment, and she never attempted to stop any of them; with so many musician friends, it would have been pointless.

In regard to her intimacies, including with Bird, no one has evidence of "any". Everyone who knew, including Bird, said their relationship was purely platonic. The alleged musicians, beside Monk of course, said they wished the rumors were true.

Stop and think about it, she was a 42 year old Baroness with 5 kids when Bird died in her apartment. While it's not uncommon for people of different races to become intimate, "Class" is another matter. Once people get past their animalistic youth, they take a great deal more consideration into "intimacies". A 42 year old Baroness would have instilled requirements in regard to someone she chose to become intimate with. It's my opinion, and I stress that fact without one iota of evidence, that none of the musicians, black or white met her instilled requirements for intimacy.

Musicians put it differently, they said that after having 5 kids, she wasn't interested in such things. Now you can scratch the other two books off your list.

Enjoy the music.

Jon Hendricks gets my vote for "The King of Scat". I bought "Jon Hendricks and Friends" after you recommended it Rok.

Ursula Dudziak is a very unusual vocalist I've been enjoying lately, and she's not new, I just discovered her again while browsing through my old LP's. Since she doesn't like words, this is Ursula.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1W-Tr5dzyI

Enjoy the music.

This is special.

A CARNEGIE HALL CHRISTMAS CONCERT (DVD)
Kathleen Battle, Frederica von Stade, Wynton Marsalis (septet) Andre Previn.

You must have it. Not only will you be treated to a great performance, you will probably be smitten by the foxes doing the singing. They were so into it.

Marsalis was brilliant!! A young Wynton. This was done 22 years ago. His work, arrangements, are always so tastefully and appropriately done.

It is great. Had me and the wife tearing up. Don't pass on this one!! Make sure you have it. You won't regret it.

Cheers

Why is all the good stuff performed in NYC? I ain't trying to start nuttin', I'm just saying!

The Frogman:

I have that CD by Jon Hendricks. Jon Hendricks and Friends. A lot of big time people on the set. Turrentine, Marsalis, Basie and of course McFerrin and Benson.

I remember the first time I heard him do 'cloudburst'. WOW! That was with Lambert, Hendricks, & Ross. One of the best Jazz LP covers. Just oozes New York sophistication. Love the mike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDbAsndZGW0

Cheers

O-10:

Nice clip of Rawls. Back in the day we would say, the boy is strung out! I felt sort of sorry for him.

I probably would not have received the tune the same, if I heard it without reading your comments. You have a good feel for the music.

I have learned a lot on this thread. Thanks for the clip.

Cheers

NOT scatting in the usual sense, but check this out. First you have to listen
to the original, followed by the vocal version:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RPfFhfSuUZ4

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ASFCs4IUolI

Biggest surprise for me was George Benson. He kills on this, sounding the most relaxed and less "practiced".

Not much that can be said that hasn't been said many times over about, probably, the greatest composition of the 20th century. In order to (slowly) bring things back to the subject this thread (and possibly change Rok's opinion of this composer) this is THE recording of a work written for Woody Herman and his "First Herd":

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8M4VZJ8qpcU

Lou Rawls has a resonant voice that sounds musical when he's just talking; that's why it's so recognizable. He also has the deepest respect for the classic songs; for example, "Summertime" becomes even more "Summery" when he sings it, each song he sings becomes more of what it was when he sings it.

"Don't Explain", the tune made famous by "Billy Holiday", becomes even more heart wrenching. when Lou sings it, we can see him pacing the floor all night long waiting for his lady to come home. It's 6:AM, and the Sun is shining bright when she finally walks through the door with all kinds of explanations as to where she's been all night. That's when he calmly says to her "Don't Explain".

As he gazes upon her radiant beauty, where she's been or who she was with is so unimportant; once again he's in the presence of her magic charms that fill him with a joy he's never known before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1SoDpej7-M

Enjoy the music.