My awareness of Cuba started with Castro in Harlem. Demonstrating that he was just another member of the proletariat. :)
I was never into Lucy. Too silly for my taste.
Batista was probably owned by the mob and other monied interest in the US. He pushed racist policies to get the almighty Yankee Dollar. Since the tourist he catered to, were 'used' to racist policies.
My other introductions to Cuba were, Hemingway's book, The Old Man and The Sea. Required reading in school. Also, when I was into Chess, I studied the Chess matches of Jose Raul Capablanca, the great Cuban Chess Grandmaster.
Didn't get into Cuban Music, until I was introduced to Dizzy's music.
Cheers |
O-10:
****I'm not trying to diverge from the main subject, just pointing out something that's related.*****
You be the OP, you can go anywhere you desire. I know it's hard for the rest of you to stay on message as I do.
Cheers |
O-10:
*****As ancient as it is, to pass history down from one person to another without writing, this is still being used in regard to voodoo.******
Remember that game we all played as children? One person would whisper a statement to one kid, who would then whisper the same thing to another kid, and so on..... then the last kid would say what was whispered to him. It was never the same.
The important things are always written down for history and future generations. I think Voodoo is sort of like Jazz. They make it up as they go.
I have never heard of Voodoo in Africa. I'm no expert, but since you mentioned it, Voodoo seems to be a Caribbean thingy. Except, for Marie Laveau, down there in Nawlins. :)
Cheers |
Acman, that is one of the most important recordings I don't have, and have never heard before now. I must have it; then I can just lay back and soak it all in.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, you done went and gone "Hi Hat" on me and "The Wolfman", AKA Howling Wolf.
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I'll go into my shallow awareness of Cuba before Castro while I'm waiting for your contributions.
Since my awareness of Cuba was formed by movies and television, almost everybody in Cuba was white. Were there any Black members in Ricky Ricardo's band on "I Love Lucy"?
I know everybody has seen the movie "The Godfather"; Meyer Lansky's hotel suite is still preserved.
I didn't know Black people were prominent in Cuba, Until Fidel Castro came rolling into Havana with his Black Generals. He sent Batista packing, but not before Batista could fill his suitcases with 400 million dollars of Cuba's money.
By the way, Batista was a light skinned Mulato, he would have been considered a Black man in the United States. I mention this because he pushed racist policies in Cuba.
I'll tie all your contributions together when they come in.
Enjoy the music.
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BTW, do 'blue notes' appear in Classical and other genres?
Cheers |
Rok, there's enough stuff that left Africa permanently during the slave trade to fill a library and a museum. While researching Cuba, I came across a master voodoo drummer who lives in Haiti. He has a chart of types of "exclusively voodoo drumming"", and what country that type of drumming came from. As ancient as it is, to pass history down from one person to another without writing, this is still being used in regard to voodoo. While he has all of the rhythms, he pointed out that many types can no longer be found in Africa, but reside in various countries in the Caribbean, and Bahia, where many types of voodoo drumming can still be found that are no longer in Africa. My ears told me that a long time ago. People in Africa are trying to move forward, and survive economically, while those over here who are steeped in Voodoo (which goes by many names) are leaning on that ancient religion which originated in Africa.
I'm not trying to diverge from the main subject, just pointing out something that's related.
Enjoy the music.
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**** How can we understand how the use of "blue" notes or polymetric rhythms in African music influenced the blues and jazz if we don't know what a blue note is? Do we?****** Of course!! Everyone knows what a blue note is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_notenext question. :) O-10: we better be careful. I think The Frogman is about to go professorial on us. Cheers |
Hello gentlemen - I like very much indeed the direction this thread has been going lately, despite my lack of contributions for a while now. I fully intend to go back over all these links and listen to all these clips when I get a chance. Just about all of them lately are things I am not very familiar with, and I am eager to hear and learn about about them.
Frogman's latest post has some VERY important points, which have been big themes of mine on these forums. Most important is his: "That one can't detect something does not mean that it isn't there; simply that one cannot detect (hear) it....yet." The key word here is YET. Rok and O-10, you both love music so much, and love listening to it. It would be a very simple thing for you both to listen more ACTIVELY, as opposed to passively. These things really aren't that difficult to learn to hear - you just have to put in the effort to train yourself to do so. Doing so will increase your enjoyment of whatever you are listening to a thousand fold. You will begin hearing things you never heard before even in your very favorite music that you have heard a thousand times. You will hear connections between your favorite tunes/albums/artists/genres that you haven't heard before. You will understand the improvised musical "conversations" going on between these great jazz musicians so much more, and the delight you have in listening to them will increase beyond what you can currently imagine. This, to me, is the essence of jazz - these types of dialogues that are completely improvised on the spot, but yet are solidly based on these basic building blocks. All these great musicians know and understand them (as well as their histories and inter-relationships), and use them, much like a writer uses language. The more you speak this language yourself, the more subtleties you will hear in what they are saying that you never even realized existed before. |
****Spirituals, Blues, and Jazz are uniquely American, with no African influence I can detect.**** O-10, that comment is almost as surprising as Rok's. I think the operative part of the comment, and what keeps it from being inaccurate is "that I can detect". That one can't detect something does not mean that it isn't there; simply that one cannot detect (hear) it....yet. I think one has to be careful about making comments like that as if they are fact without first having a really thorough grasp of the literature on the subject and what those who have studied the music and its origins very thoroughly have to say on the matter. Of course blues, spirituals and jazz are uniquely American creations, but the African influence is very strong. Again, influence is not the same as creation. And btw, the cross-cultural influences in music are not unique to African culture; the same can be said of any culture that had any significant contact with another. All this becomes obvious if one understands what the components of music are on a deeper level. How can we understand how the use of "blue" notes or polymetric rhythms in African music influenced the blues and jazz if we don't know what a blue note is? Do we? And that is only the tip of the iceberg. The potential in these discussions is great, but we are going to keep coming up against these obstacles and distractions if instead of keeping a more open mind to how much there is to learn there is commentary presented as fact when it isn't. The following link is highly recommended reading from an "authority" on the subject; and, before we are too quick to deem the article "feel good, politically correct nonsense" (or something like that) I encourage you to remember that practically every jazz player on the planet would agree with it. Cheers. http://www.jazzedmagazine.com/2893/articles/focus-session/the-african-origins-of-jazz/ |
O-10, I will try to get my part done this evening. |
So, what exactly are you saying? That the article that you referenced (link) is invalid as a whole since it too is simply "what some guy wrote"? If so, then why did you reference the article? Rok, the problem in trying to resolve this disagreement is that you are relying on, and disputing, only what is being said with words. You are not listening to what the music itself is saying; you are not letting your ears give you "the proof". You insist on equating "influence" with "creation"; they are two different but related things. I am going to be blunt and I mean no disrespect: it's amazing that someone who loves music so much can be so closed to understanding the building blocks of music; and how much there is to understand. The connection (the influence) between the different musics is there to be heard; it's loud and clear. THAT'S the proof. I'll give you a concrete example (you want proof?):
The fifth track on the record that we are commenting on (and the first of "my three") "Fiesta De La Rumba" starts with a slow 3-2 Rumba Clave rhythm. I will get deeper into the importance of Clave rhythm in Cuban music in my comments about the three tracks, but for now "the proof" lies in the fact that the Clave rhythm originated in Sub-Saharan African music traditions and has the same role in that music as in Cuban music. This is well documented and not really up for debate and all one has to do is LISTEN; but, first one has to know what one is listening to. I suppose that this fact is simply a coincidence in your view? This is the reason that I have repeatedly encouraged you to learn more about this stuff. IMO, you are doing yourself a disservice by holding on to ideas that not only have no basis in fact, but are contrary to those of every authority on the subject.
****Don't shortchange the people of the US and Cuba****
Why are you so invested in shortchanging the people of Africa? |
Seems as if you have been exposed to 'feel good history'. Being in NY, that is not surprising. A few facts would be nice, rather than just what some guy wrote. Remember, EVERYONE, has an agenda. Esp the liberal left. And most of what is written about the arts, is written by them. They are determine to make Africa something, even if it is not. They don't respect the music or the people, so being accurate is not important to them.
If all this stuff came from Africa, why is it not there now? Don't shortchange the people of the US and Cuba. Give them their due. THEY created this music. The only thing that originated in Africa were their ancestors.
You need to get out more. :) Visit the United States. Start with the Mississippi river in St Louis, MO, then down to Memphis, the Delta, and Louisiana, and then over to Texas. Make sure you write down everytime you hear the word 'Africa'.
One last thing. In many parts of the world, 'Afro' just means black. If black people play a certain music it's called AFRO-whatever. If the local whites had played the same music first, note for note, it would not be called Afro-anything. So much for orgins.
Cheers |
Rok, I can only assume that you were so excited to read something "supporting" your strange stance on "the African influence" that you neglected to read the entire article. From the very article that you linked:
****I have discussed western influences on African music; it will be impossible to close this discussion without highlighting that Africans have a profound influence on world music today. We can trace this influence to times before the popularization of Jazz as a true hybrid of African and Western musical idioms. Trade played a major role in exposing other nations to African music. Diaries of early explorers are full of accounts that at times exhibit their biases about a culture they viewed as primitive and inferior to their own.
It is also important to note that some early writers, such as Mc Kinney and Anderson, who acknowledged that "Negroes [African Americans] brought into the country [America] their own flavor of rhythmic genius and harmonic love for color peculiar to their music." The African influence on Jazz, Reggae, Rhythm and Blues, Hip hop, Rap and other popular forms of music that exist in America, Asia, Europe and other continents cannot be discounted. Mc Kinney and Anderson acknowledge the African contributions to indigenous American art forms when they write, ''Africans contributed to the first popular form of amusement indigenous to the American scene was the minstrel show, a distinctly native combination of a sort folk vaudeville with topical songs of a Negroid character." It is within this context that Africa continues to play a major role in reshaping the world music. One of the major African music idioms that have influence world music is captured in Jazz. Mc Kinney and Anderson argue that Jazz is a kind of music fusing elements from such widely differing sources as European harmony, Euro-African melody, and African rhythm into a kind of improvisations style based on a fixed rhythmic foundation. Its beginnings can be traced to the Negro musicians in the French quarters of the city of New Orleans around 1890.**** |
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For those that are interested. http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/teachers/curriculum/m13/notes.phpAlso, Google, 'Indigenous African Music". After reading the article, and any of the several sites on the Google, then talk to me about Drums and music of African orgin in the Americas. These people did not progress beyond chanting. In that, they are without peer. The rest of it, is African words put to Western musical forms. Cheers |
#9 Clasiqueando Con Ruben Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_(music)This is SON music and the title is in honor of the pianist for the BVSC, Ruben Gonzalez. SON is also said to be of African orgin, although it only appeared at the turn of the last century. Where was it hiding? :) If it took that long to manifest itself, a body could be excused for thinking it was of Cuban orgin!! Son was looked down upon by the Cuban Elite i.e. Europeans. I guess they couldn't 'hear' it. Wiki says SON caused "considerable Anxiety" among the powers that be. I love it for that reason alone. And of course because of the BVSC. Wiki also says BVSC was not that well thought of by the Cubans. Read the article. It's a good read. To hear the tune, just go to O-10's post and click on the song title. It will move to the start of that tune. Cheers |
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Wiki is not the King James Version.
Some people hear drums, they think 'Africa'. Tooooo many Tarzan movies!!
***It's funny how we sometimes see what we want to see. That comment clearly points out the African connection;****
"Many Characteristics" does not a 'connection' make. Besides, I heard the tune and thought 'Latin".
Cheers |
I just read the Wiki article on "Mozambique". It says this:
"Although the rhythm shares many characteristics with Sub-Saharan African music traditions, it does not have anything to do with music from the African nation of Mozambique"
It's funny how we sometimes see what we want to see. That comment clearly points out the African connection; but, it points out that, although implied by the name of that particular rhythm, it does not relate to the music of the country Mozambique specifically. |
Rok, you might as well have stated African influence does not exist because the although the music sounded African influenced, the name was wrong. Cuban street music is a combination of Spain and Africa.
Spirituals, Blues, and Jazz are uniquely American, with no African influence I can detect.
Enjoy the music.
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Well, I'm batting .500; not bad, I suppose.
****In Cuba, like almost all other countries and cultures, history and music are inextricably interwoven.****
Could not agree more.
****I think I was on to something, when I said the "African" influence in a lot of this music does not really exist. ****
Could not agree less.
That it is considered "Cuban street music" in no way negates the African influence. In fact, depending on one's points of view, it confirms it. Surely, you understand that original musical instruments are not necessary for transporting the musical heritage. Remember the comment by some musicians that perplexed you so ("I wish I could play what I hear in my head")? Similar and related idea.
Great documentaries, btw; thanks.
I will need a day or so to comment on the Afro Cuban All Stars tracks.
Cheers |
*****Cuba is probably the only country whose people, history and music are inextricably interwoven.*****
In Cuba, like almost all other countries and cultures, history and music are inextricably interwoven.
Cheers |
#8 Maria Caracoles This is what Wiki has to say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_(music)I think I was on to something, when I said the "African" influence in a lot of this music does not really exist. It's just played by people of African decent. Wiki seems to think it's Cuban street music. Slaves came to to the Americas with just the rags on their backs. No musical instruments, they were not from the same African cluture, different languages and religions etc.... Conditions that made it almost impossible to transport and sustain a culture. That's why, Spirituals, Blues and Jazz, are the most American of all music in this country. No old country influence. I will complete my 'homework' after gym time. :) Cheers |
Cuba is probably the only country whose people, history and music are inextricably interwoven. I'll begin Cuba's history and music with "Afro Cuban All Stars", a popular Cuban CD that displays the fascinating music of this country, that's derived from the roots of it's people. The first cut is Amor Verdadero, it's Guajara-Son, a rural music with more of a Spanish twist. Since there are ten cuts on this CD, I suggest that we take 3 cuts each, look them up on "Wikipedia", and tell us a little bit about them. Cut 2. is Son Montuno; 3. is Danzonete-Cha; 4. is Son; 5. is Guaguanco; 6. is Guaguanco son; 7 is guaracha; 8. is Mazambique; 9. is Son; and 10. is Son Afro. Acman, you take 2, 3, and 4; Frogman, you take 5, 6, and 7; Rok, you take 8, 9, and 10; while I go into other interesting aspects of Cuba's history, and music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJ4hF8EBZgAs you know, the roots of the inhabitants of Cuba are a combination of African slaves, and Spanish colonists; hence the music. I expect that defining the types of music, will shed a lot of light on the history of Cuba. In Cuba's revolution for independence from Spain, slaves fought in that war, which is one of the reasons why African music is so prominent in Cuban music. I expect your definitions of the music will dovetail with Cuba's history. I'll wait for us to meet before proceeding. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, really like that big band. Very fresh, even today. |
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Some interesting clips of young Cubans playing new music. I notice they don't throw their elders under the bus. You don't have to destory the past to play the new. The interviews I don't understand, so I just skipped to the Music parts. This seems to be present day Cuban musical scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2g09nfWcM0Cheers |
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In the second set, wouldn't you have to add Kenny Clarke? I am not a drummer, but remember him changing drumming. |
****Was there bad blood between Adderley and Hancock? Anyone know?****
Probably not; other than the bad blood that existed between the "purists" and the ones who, in their view, "sold out" (Herbie/ funk, Headhunters etc.). Pretty silly and ironic if you ask me. Remember the "Kung Fu" clip with Cannon, Jose Feliciano and Carradine? It's sobering to realize that some of our heroes can be such close-minded musical bigots; they are human too. |
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Test:
Great and Important:
Parker and Gillespie - bebop
Gillespie - Cuba
Navarro - Was a transitional figure. Could have been the best ever on trumpet. Died too soon.
All the others are important in the sense that someone has to PLAY all these innovations!! :)
Cheers |
Inportant is much better than Important. :)
Rok, the pot calling the kettle black again. It's Joni Mitchel |
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Under the heading of WTF!!!
"I wish I could play the piano the way I want to."
The first 'wish', from Oscar Peterson, in Nica's book.
I have an LP by Cannonball titled, "The Black Messiah". During one of his usual mini-monologues before playing a tune by Herbie Hancock, he sort of dismissed and ridiculed Herbie, because he received, and accepted, an honorary degree from Grinell College. It's in Iowa, I think.
I was shocked to hear his tone. Was there bad blood between Adderley and Hancock? Anyone know?
Cheers |
Today's Listen:
Herbie Hancock -- GERSHWIN'S WORLD
Let's see; we have hancock, shorter, jodi mitchell, stevie wonder, kathleen battle, chick corea, the orpheus chamber orch and a few more. Your musical curiosity demands that you listen to this CD. I loved it. I was surprised at Jodi. I am not that familiar with her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRUFC4NN6js
Cheers |
****So in Jazz, we have Jazz, and then something or someone comes along and changes the way that pre-existing Jazz is played. That's 'influence'.****
Rok, you have it exactly backwards; or, at least, only partially (a small part) correct. Yes, someone like Bird comes along and changes the direction of jazz, but the impetus for that change is everything that came before Bird; THAT is the influence (on Bird). And the process continues: Bird was one of Trane's main influences (by Trane's own admission). Of course each player brings new and unique things to the table; but, of there had been no Bird, there would not have been a a Coltrane. And that is the reason that there is always worthwhile jazz including presently; it is an extension of what came before it.
Actually, there have been many who, even if not revolutionizing jazz in a sweeping way the way that Bird and Trane did, certainly influenced the change in the overall direction of jazz; it is a matter of degree.
****The answer to this lies with the unwashed masses. So, as you stated it, a player can be great and not important, and important, but not great. And of course, both and neither.****
We have been here before and the answer is the same: nonesense. I have asked for a more in depth explanation of your stance previously and I have never gotten one. Perhaps that is why you like to consider part of the unwashed masses. Hate to break it to you, you are not part of the unwashed masses. The unwashed don't listen to Mingus nor Beethoven :-) As I have said before, by your definition the best art is The Beatles (I like them btw), Michael Jackson, Kenny G, Madonna etc.
You also misread my comment re important/great. To clarify: an important artist is always great (even if one doesn't like his art), a great artist is not always important.
Cheers |
****What makes an artist an important artist? ****
I thought I answered that question in the paragraph that followed. Put simply, it's an artist who was influential in shaping the direction of the art. I think that the Tatum/Scott example is a good one. Scott was an extremely accomplished player and worth listening to. Tatum was a master who influenced not only Scott, but the direction of piano playing style as a whole; he's an important artist.
Rok, you shouldn't short change yourself too readily. I'm not quite sure what a "true aficionado" is, but you clearly love the music. |
New Cuban Music:
Does New Cuban music have to originate in Cuba? Should the music played and composed by a player of Cuban ethnicity, living in another country, be considered 'Cuban' music?
We need to answer these questions before we can begin the search for NEW Cuban music. If there is any New Cuban Jazz.
Cheers |
Important vs Great:
The answer to this lies with the unwashed masses. So, as you stated it, a player can be great and not important, and important, but not great. And of course, both and neither.
How could that be? Easy, the art community does not seperate the wheat, the public does. THINK about it.
Cheers |
**** The "influence lineage" is something that has been missing here IMO*****
Well, first of all, we need to define 'influence'. I think of it, as it's used in astrophysics.. A thing exist and has certain properties. Then another thing, causes the first thing to change.
Example: The orbit of an asteroid is changed because it travels too close to a Star. The presence of the Star, and it's gravity, 'influenced', or changed, the orbit of the asteroid.
So in Jazz, we have Jazz, and then something or someone comes along and changes the way that pre-existing Jazz is played. That's 'influence'.
There are few people that have 'influenced' Jazz. Armstrong, Parker, are the obvious and quick answers. I am sure you aficionados can name many others.
BTW, if a player does change direction and no one else follows, he has not 'influenced' anything.
Cheers |
Direction of this Thread:
I will follow you guys. You are the true Aficionados. I think of myself as representing the unwashed masses. IOW, The Dreaded 'Public'.
Cheers
I will answer The Frogman's Tome, later today. |
Liked Sanchez. But as a French speaker, I didn't understand a word she said. :) This is sometimes more important than at other times. Not important at all in Opera. The awesome music overcomes language. Not so with Sanchez. Turrentine: Always glad to see Jazz guys pay their respects to the good Lord. This is him with his wife, Shirley Scott, on organ. I have this CD. He seems to be more 'Jazzy' than 'Jazz'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM1h4_gPkBE&list=RDAM1h4_gPkBE#t=27Cheers |
