Jazz for aficionados

Rok, we seem to be lost in a time warp. I have resigned myself to quit trying to get out of it, and just enjoy.

Alexatpos, it's absolutely astounding how music transcends all other forms of communication; I was intimately acquainted with John Wright's "South Side"; it was a glorious place, even beautiful in spots, while that South Side no longer exists, it's still alive in his music and my memory.

Enjoy the music.

Speaking of virtouso, Phineas Newborn was one, again, never received enough recognition. Here is the link where he is in the great company, with Paul Chambers and Roy Haynes, 1958. is the year, album 'Us three'

http://youtu.be/Paxz3oCin7k

Than again, if we are spaking of blues in jazz, this title says all, aldo the blues is not so really obvious, great album, never the less. Milt Jackson's 'Ballads and Blues'

http://youtu.be/Paxz3oCin7k

...line up is great,pity that Skeeter Best never recorded a solo album...as far as I know...

Jim Wright Trio- South Side Soul

I loved it. There is an item on Amazon that includes all four of his albums. It's in my cart. He sort of plays in the vein of Gene Harris. And that ain't bad.

He is definitely from / in a Blues enviroment. I can name several Blues CDs, with the name South Side Soul. Junior Wells and Buddy Guy come to mind.

Thanks for the clip.

Cheers

Left Alone - Mal Waldron:

Great Music, Priceless Photos. Billie always seems to be leaning slightly forward when she sings. Ella leaned slightly backwards.

Thanks for the clip.

Cheers

Today's Listen:

Art Tatum -- THE COMPLETE CAPITOL RECORDINGS VOL. ONE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6TBaZfVqLo

This guy is really a virtuoso!! But I think the Emperor in "Amadeus" was right about him, he plays tooo many notes. On the last four tunes, he is, mercifully, joined by Guitar and Bass. Much better.

Art Tatum -- THE ART TAUM SOLO MASTERPIECES VOL. ONE

And the flourishes just keep a coming! Couldn't get through to the end of this one. Just a little too much solo piano.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SnJSHfMAxQ

I think he played more notes on this CD than Basie did in his entire life! I like him much better with a group.

But he is a seminal player, and way ahead of his time. And you cannot help but admire his ability, it's just that he plays so many runs, or embellishments, that it's hard to keep the song in your head. After the first few bars, he could be playing anything. And an entire CD of this gets old. But, I bet he would be wonderful to see live.

Cheers

For a gentleman who said that 'Seems as if all the Best Jazz, has the word 'Blues' in the title '...this is a fine album from artist who never got recogniion...like so many in jazz, I guess...here is the link

http://youtu.be/8X4Tja54qLE

If I may join the conversation with small contribution. Album from Mal Waldron 'Left alone', her former pianist, from 1959. Here is the link, hop you will like it
http://youtu.be/E7lIffL3xaQ

The biggest drawback to most boxed sets with the word "Complete" in the title, is the endless 'alternate takes', and the stuff that was not meant to be released at the time of recording. Best to stick with 'the best of' or 'master tapes'

I just had to have the Decca stuff, so I will suffer through them with a smile on my face. :)

BTW, the notes writer on vol.9 said that Billie recorded few of what we know today as 'Jazz Classics'. He said most of her output was "Pop Potboilers" and "Standards". hmmmmm I never thought of her that way.

Cheers

****so don't worry about the sound quality; whatever she had when she had it will come through that.****

Amen!

Having said that:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/billie-holiday-on-cd-what-is-the-best.8371/

1116

Today's Listen:

Billie Holiday -- THE QUINTESSENTIAL BILLIE HOLIDAY VOL.9

The last in the 'Quintessential' series of Nine-CDs, issued by Columbia.

Excellet Booklet and notes. I guess most would consider the notes 'provocative', i.e., he tells the truth. I might get the other vols for the booklet ands notes.

Lester Young only appears on one tune. :( He is more prominent in the other vols.

The sound quality is excellent by mere mortal standards. Can't speak for other species.

First tune is "ST Louis Blues". Seems as if, Everyone has to pay their respects to the OP!!

The singing? It's a Billie Holiday performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCyyTISP9eI

This is the song, but not the CD.

Cheers

They all have their great moments, and sound of course is not what we want, but great music.

Great musicians!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPXIIokdc1U

O-10:

Billie Holiday. I decided on:

Complete Decca
Commodore Master Tapes
Best of The Verve Years
The Quintessential Vol. 5

Will report after I listen.

Cheers

Acman3:

Funny you should mention that CD, I placed it on order earlier today. Also, "The Quintessential Billie Holiday Vol.5".

Thanks for the input.

Cheers

Decca Masters- Strings, but voice is Great!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eglNtIGaer0

Rok, I like this period, but the voice is a little ruff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWI6VSs4Onw

Rok, that's a very tall order, and a question I had to answer for myself. Forget about boxed sets or anything critics and reviewers have to say.

Billie Holiday had a style so unique and special, that you could hear it in a crowded bar on the jukebox, with drunks making the noises that drunks make, so don't worry about the sound quality; whatever she had when she had it will come through that. Focus on early and mid career, before she began to have health problems. Remember, a person does their best work, and then they become famous; after they become famous, every body is trying to make a buck, consequently every sound they make is the best sound ever, those are the Billy Holiday records I had in my collection that I sold.

Try to audition everything you can and trust your ears is the best advice I can give you, but don't listen to the critics because you might wind up with Billie Holiday records for sale.

Enjoy the music.

O-10:

I am in the market for recordings by Billie Holiday. There are several Boxed Sets available. I am most concerned about sound quality. Any recommendations based on what you have heard?

Cheers

Today's Listens:

Lester Young -- JAZZ GIANT (1956)
Gigantic Blues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSrrJZXC1wE
The CD title says it all. Jazz Giant!!

Randy Weston -- VOLCANO BLUES
J.K. Blues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vinm6KMlFkA
This entire CD is just wonderful. Seems as if all the Best Jazz, has the word 'Blues' in the title.

Lee Morgan -- THE COOKER
A Night In Tunisia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo0P2YugUnU&list=PLEE6B352B63B2B0CC
Lee morgan at age 19. Unbelievable! Pepper Adams on Baritone Sax. The tone of a tenor would have been better.

Cheers

Learsfool:

Given the tremendous financial problems facing many orchestras, what do you think is the answer. I think Government funding, in this country, is a non-starter. Seems like some thinking outside the Box might be called for.

If it were sports teams, we could always hope for a shoe deal, or TV deal.

Your Horn section, in Nike Air-Mozarts? :)

Cheers

Today's Listen:

Sonny Rollins -- SONNY ROLLINS PLUS 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIlpEnsa2d8

Clifford Brown died a few months after this was recorded. I think this was his last time on record.

Great, but short!! The CD is finished before you know it. Another effect from the LP era. On the bright side, it forced players to 'speak' quickly. Could use some of that today.

Cheers

I can enjoy a conversation without contributing, all of this is quite educational for me, please continue.

Robert Spano (and Runnicles) is definitely one of the good guys in supporting the players in his orchestra; as Learsfool points out, an unusual move.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/arts/music/atlanta-symphony-orchestra-music-director-backs-performers.html?_r=0

Hi Rok - actually, for once the music director of the ASO has come out firmly in support of the musicians. And yes, it is almost worse than the Minnesota situation, if you have read some of the unbelievable comments made by the guy that runs that arts center that owns the ASO. We are unfortunately in a period of spectacularly bad arts management right now. I hasten to add, however, that there are a great many success stories happening in the orchestral scene right now, too, though those almost never get reported. Do you know of any other business that actually trashes itself? No, I didn't think so....

Learsfool:

Thanks for the usual in-depth reply. Seems as if nothing is as simple as it appears to the layman.

This seems like Minnesota all over again. Ran across it while checking up on CBA's. The article does not mention the conductor. You have any idea where he stands in all this?

http://www.peachpundit.com/2014/09/07/atlanta-symphony-management-fail-to-meet-cba-deadline/

Underneath all the beautiful art created or performed, lies the vulgar realities of life. The need to earn a living. Part Musical Wizards, part UAW. :)

Cheers

Hi Rok - the bowing question is very simple. I'm sure you have noticed that each section of the string family is always moving their bows together, in the same way. It is the markings that tell them what to do when that we call "the bowings." There is a symbol for a downbow, and a symbol for an upbow, and some other very standard markings for different types of bowstrokes. Sometimes the composers will call for a passage to be bowed a certain way. Basically, a downbow is stronger, meaning it has more weight than an upbow. Bowings are chosen for both musical and technical reasons, and often much time in rehearsal is spent in discussing possible changes of them, while us wind players twiddle our thumbs.... :) Seriously, a conductor will often request a change in the bowings for some musical reason, or if he/she is not that familiar with bowings (in other words, they didn't/don't play a string instrument), they will ask the concertmaster if a change would help create the effect they want in a certain passage, etc.

It is the job of the concertmaster to do the bowings for any piece the orchestra is going to play, and as I said before, these are then passed on to the other string principals, who may make minor changes for their own sections. The librarians then are the ones who actually mark the bowings in all the other string player's parts. All of this is done far in advance of the first rehearsal of the program, so the music is ready for the players personal use in preparing for the program. Each orchestra's CBA will mandate how far in advance the music has to be ready and available - in most it is two or three weeks ahead of time. String parts take much longer to prepare than wind parts, precisely because of the bowings.

I found this last night while looking for Christmas DVDs. Turns out, it's by the LSO. I wonder if the Trumpet player is the one I read about in the Obit.

Colin Davis' comments in the interview after the concert, concerning women in the orchestra, were very interesting. The exact same thing can be said of Women in the U.S. Military. They made/make it, a much better place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuGSOkYWfDQ

Cheers

Learsfool:

Excellent Posts. Very educational. After all this, I think I will play my Paganini CDs today. I only the '24 Caprices'. One CD by Fischer, and one by Midori. I appreciate the time you took to respond in such detail. I am beginning to have a much better understanding of the workings of an orchestra. I assume you realize, that you and The Frogman have the best jobs in the world.

I don't know why I was so determined to get to the bottom of the 'cuts' thingy, after all, I always get the 'highlights' versions of Operas. But I did learn something.

If you ever have the time you might go a little more in depth concerning the 'bowing' of the string parts. The Frogman mentioned this some time ago, but did not get into it. If it's somethinmg that can be explained to a non-musician.

Thanks.

Cheers

Terrific explanations from Learsfool; thanks.

****Once he comes out of his latest 'Pouting' episode****

Rok2id, pay close attention now. I realize that understanding things that go beyond surface level are not always your forte; and, I do feel flattered that my three day absence from this thread causes you concern. But, really, was that comment necessary? I hope that you are able to see that in order to avoid (if that is what you want) the silly bickering that you often bring to the table, that it is this kind of passive aggression that puts things on the wrong track. All together now..... ha ha ha ha.

O-10, will check back with some comments re your postings.

Robsker, thanks for the heads up. Randy Sandke is a terrific traditional jazz player out of the Bix Beiderbeck tradition. I second the recommendation.

Cheers all.

Hello again Rok - yes, the principals of each section in the orchestra are the section leaders. They have the final say on how the section blends together, how it balances, how it articulates together, and the overall sound of the section, sometimes dictating what types of equipment will be used (some horn sections or trumpet sections or trombone sections will all play the exact same make and model of instrument). The rest of the section also always tunes to the principal as well. As a section horn player myself, my principal is my most immediate "boss," though this term is only used in jest. It is my job as a section player to follow the principal's lead. String principals do have more work to do - they have to do all of the bowing markings, making sure that everyone is bowing everything the same way. The concertmaster always does this first, then passes the bowings along to the other string principals, who make sure they work for them (meaning say the principal cellist might slightly change something because it doesn't work as well on cello as it does on violin, etc.), and then the librarians put them into all the other string players parts. The section leaders will sometimes make part assignments as well - for instance, say every piece on a particular concert only requires two horns, but there are say four players in the section - usually this program would be split among all four players, two of them playing some of them, two others the rest of them, and the principal would decide who played what, usually subject to music director approval, though most of them wouldn't mess around with it too much. Hope this gives you some idea....

Hi Rok - I'll address the cuts thing first. In reading what you quoted, it is obvious that in the Rabin recording, the cuts are NOT from the soloist, but from the conductor - the passages in question are in the orchestral tuttis, when the soloist isn't even playing. The writer does not know why these cuts were made, and clearly hasn't done any homework in trying to find out - you can take what he said about "no rhyme or reason" with a grain of salt. They may not be particularly good cuts, but obviously they at least work, or they wouldn't/couldn't be made. If they were made specifically for the recording project in question, it almost certainly had to do with the timings of the LP side. That would be my best guess as to why the cuts were made, something this writer obviously didn't even think of (perhaps he is reviewing a remastered recording on CD).

Quite a few people would also argue that one doesn't necessarily need to hear every note Paganini wrote, since he wasn't the greatest composer, but that would be a whole different debate.....clearly every note of the solo part is heard on that recording in question, in any case.

And yes, cuts are made all of the time, especially in operas and ballets, for all of the reasons I listed in my previous post and more. Opera and ballet composers in general expected their works to be cut or rearranged to suit the performers/directors. The idea of the score being sacrosanct did not even exist until the middle of the 19th century at the earliest. In the world of the symphony, really the first composer to make tons of markings in the parts was Mahler, and he was certainly the first to expect that they would all be followed very literally. In the 18th century and earlier, a very great deal was left up to the performer. To give an example from my own instrument - there are absolutely no articulation markings in the solo part of any of the Mozart horn concerti - the performer articulated the part as he saw fit, and any articulations in modern editions of them are editor's markings, not Mozart's. The performer was expected to be consistent in what they were doing, but that sort of thing was generally left up to them. Remember, in that era, the composer was pretty much always a performer writing for themselves, anyway. This is just one of many examples. There are also many other types of musical decisions that are left to the performer, for instance whether or not to repeat certain sections of music in certain musical forms, and there are raging debates on this issue among musicians to this day. That's probably a clumsy sentence, but it is a little complicated to explain. I hope this answers your question, though I realize it probably brings up several others....

Just want to let others know of the absolute best straight-ahead Jazz band and label (for music in the last 25 years). They are the New York Allstars (led by Randy Sandke) and they have done amazing work of Ellington, Basie, Armstrong, Biederbeck, among others on the label Nagel Hayer. The recordings are of amazing jazz, all recorded live and the sound quality exceeds Mapleshade, Chesky, or Reference Recordings (each of which record well sonically but record second and third-rate music). Nagel Heyer, in general, is 1st rate music amazingly well recorded --- and the New York Allstars are the best of the best.

Learsfool:

Forgot to mention. The piece of music in question is: Paganini's Violin Concerto No 1.

Cheers

Learsfool:

Not trying to make a mountain of a mole hill, or bore you to death. I don't pretend to know much about Paganini, or follow all the author's musical reasoning, but I always thought the composer's intent was sacrosanct. This is the relevant portion of the article:

CUT VERSIONS

I want to hear every note Paganini wrote, which means, sadly, that several otherwise fine versions are 'hors de combat', including two by the tragic, extravagantly gifted Michael Rabin.

In the score, after the opening 12 bars, a second theme is heard in D major. With Lovro von Matacic in 1954(SCH) this is ignored and a terrible cut is made of eight bars to letter A, meaning that you hear this theme for the first time not in the Tonic but in F. A further cut of 57 bars omits the first statement of the important third subject, and the music resumes just four bars before the soloist's first entry. It makes no musical sense. The cadenza is by Carl Flesch.

In 1960 with Eugene Goossens, in addition to the same cuts in the opening tutti, Rabin makes another one in the last movement, which jumps from letter L to letter R, omitting 151 bars--a whole section in G major with material that is otherwise never heard again.

Sadly, as far as this survey is concerned, it's 'au revoir' Rabin, who first made me fall in love with the work art the age of 12.

He goes on the mention cuts by Ruggiero Ricci -- the opening tutti goes from 94 bars to 26. and another 26 bars of the finale.

He mentions several more, but you get the drift. I used the term 'rhyme or reason', because no one seemed to make the same cuts. They were all different.

I did Google this. It seems as if this is not just limited to Paganini. I do recall reading once, that Paganini wrote music that he felt only he, had the skill to play. Could that be a factor in all these cuts? :)

Your comments will greatly appreciated.

Cheers

1106

Learsfool:

Excellent response to all my questions. Thanks. You mentioned that the principal players are 'The Leaders', does that mean they have duties other than just playing?

I am sure you are correct about The Frogman. Once he comes out of his latest 'Pouting' episode, we all look forward to his continued input.

Cheers

Hi Rok - those are some good questions. As far as the LSO situation, that is always a complicated issue. First of all, if he even asked to be moved down to third, that probably means that there was already a third trumpet opening, or there was about to be. Otherwise, there would already be someone playing that job, and it wouldn't be available to him. That would be my guess. And yes, if he moved down, then they would be auditioning for a new principal.

There is probably no implication in your article you mentioned that "there is no rhyme or reason" for the cuts - there would have to be some rhyme and reason for it, as is not simply a matter of cutting out part of it, the result has to make musical sense. There could be any number of reasons for making cuts - length being one (for fitting it onto the recording); the artist feels that part of the piece is not as good as the rest, and so cuts it out; the artist cuts out a part that is particularly difficult for them (though this would not be the case with Michael Rabin, who was world class), or other reasons. Sometimes composers give options, too, I believe those Paganini caprices have optional sections in them. Other times there are different versions of the same work by the composer, for instance there are at least three different revisions of Stravinsky's ballet, the Firebird. Often conductors will put together a suite consisting of parts of each version. This happens often with Bruckner symphonies.

As far as differences between the principal and other members of their sections, this of course will vary greatly from orchestra to orchestra, because of several reasons - age, experience, actual ability, etc. There are many factors - for example, in the horn section, different positions require different skills. For instance, the first and third horn players are "high horn" players, and the second and fourth horn are "low horn" players (think of the horn section as two pairs, first and second are a high/low pair, third and fourth are a high/low pair - in the days before valves were invented, these two pairs would have been in different keys, to give the composer more note options). The fourth horn player in particular is not expected to have as good of a high register as the first and third horns, but is definitely required to have a very good low register, much better than the high players. The differences are not quite as great in the trumpet section, though they also exist there as well. The principals are paid more, as they are the leaders and do play most of the solos. But as far as actually being better, while they are much of the time, this is not always true. When I first joined my orchestra twenty years ago, it just so happened that several of the second players in the woodwind and brass sections were actually better overall players than their principals, though this is not the case any more, with turnover over the last two decades.

In any orchestra, there is a probationary period of one or two years. Anyone winning an audition that turns out not to be up to the required level is let go after this period. If they are up to the level, then they are tenured. So the main point I would actually like to emphasize in answering this question is that anyone in a major orchestra, no matter what part they are playing, is a damn good player. It is the most competitive field to get into there is, barring professional athletics and perhaps singing and acting. And in every major city, there are many free-lance musicians who are just as good as the people who actually have positions in the major orchestra in town. Knowing he will not toot his own horn, so to speak, I will go ahead and mention that the Frogman most definitely is one of these in New York, as evidenced by the fact that he gets hired to play substitute/extra with the top groups on a regular basis. He is also unique in that he has a lot of work in the jazz scene there as well - that is relatively rare nowadays.

Does anybody remember "Les Baxter"? Honest to God, I really believed this is the way music sounded in all of those faraway places with strange sounding names when I heard Les Baxter.

I just thought this would be a good nostalgia trip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTwwnEggw24

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, this is so beautiful; it's about musicians from different parts of the world coming together in "Bombay", and creating new music. What is that instrument Caroline, the lady in the cap playing?

I've liked these musicians individually for quite awhile now, since this was done some years ago, we get to see the outcome. I'm looking forward to your creative musicians analysis of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFb9-lik2cg

Enjoy the music.

The Learsfool: (Our resident Brass guru).

In the latest issue of GRAMOPHONE, in the obituaries, is listed the Principal Trumpet player of The LSO. He was Principal for 25 years. Killed in an auto crash.

Before the crash he had excperienced health issues and had asked to be assigned to the Third Trumpet chair. No action had been taken before his death.

My question is, if his request had been granted, would all the trumpet players just move up one chair? Would they look for another principal?

Paganini: Some time ago we discussed "playing all the notes in a piece by Paganini". I think you and The Frogman said it could be a matter or taking all the repeats, or not. Well the magazine returns to Paganini, and this time what they mean is clear.

Apparently many condutors and/or players just cut out certain portions of the music. In a performance by Michael Rabin, 151 bars are cut or deleted.. The article implies there is no rhyme or reason. So if you want to hear every note of Paganini do your research.

Speaking of brass: Just received a copy of Dvorak's "New World". Wiener/Karajan. Brass galore!! Outstanding recording!

How great, if any, is the ability between the Principal players and the others members of that section, in an Orchestra. Esp the Brass players.

Cheers

Acman3:
I guess it comes down to, who you gonna believe, me, or some Jazz Heavyweight like Fuller?

Cheers

Acman3:

No thanks necessary. Just doing my duty as chief of Jazz police.

Cheers

1102

I may owe Rok an apology. I listened to a few cuts of the Dr. John CD and what I heard was, at least on first listen, not good. I will have to hear more latter. Seemed more "old school" than "modern."

Ms. Morrow has a strong background and praise from Curtis Fuller cannot to be overlooked. I will have to keep an eye on her.

Thanks Rok, I will have to get some some Sarah Morrow recordings. As usual you are at the forefront of modern jazz! Keep up the good work!

What's not to like with Mr. Welk? Accordions and bubbles. What memories!

O-10:

I guess I spoke tooo soon. After getting excited over Salvant and Porter coming into the Jazz family, seems as if we just lost a giant.

The latest Issue of Down-Beat reviews the latest CD from Dr John. Seems as if he has "replaced his New Orleans-Based band, with a Sarah Morrow led group dubbed The Nite Trippers".

Two questions, why would an Icon of Nawlins music replace a New Orleans-based band, and Who, and WTF, is Sarah Morrow?

The clips on Amazon do not bode well. Better get his old stuff while you can. This is an outrage. And then he had the nerve to name the CD "The Spirit of Satch".

The entire magazine, which I don't read very often, will just brings tears to the eyes of any Jazz fan. Real Jazz, that is. My, how the art has fallen on hard times. Lots of quanity. Little to no quality.

If you just read the track list you would be very impressed. Great tunes, and Guests, from the Blind Boys of Alabama to Arturo Sandoval to Shemekia Copeland. A different guest on each track. But, the arrangments tell the story. Can you imagine Dr John backed by Lawrence Welk??

Sad day in Nawlins!!

Who or what is at work here? Miles' aunt or Marie Laveau???

Cheers

O-10, " mid-twenties"? I was sure you were at least 50; attitude of an "old soul".

Hey Rok, here's where Don Cherry paid Miles aunt Corrine a visit;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bF5yqfaYVw

Enjoy the music.

"Jazz does the Tango", is the title of our new segment. Come with me to my new life; I'm now in my mid twenties, and Tango was in my blood since birth. For every man there is a woman, where is she, where is the one for me, where is my Tango lady? Find the one, and you will find the sun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0pYkIVHP44

My "Tango Lady" must sing a song of love; it's for certain this is a song of love, and she wrote it; but can she dance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIJZSs2gxdo

This is the ultimate "cerebral" Tango; my Tango lady must be able to do this one as well; it's done on a rainy afternoon, at a sidewalk cafe overlooking the park, seated at a table for two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9lfdx-h6u0

Now it's time to Tango, like the last Tango ever in life;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lAKlYTQVKY

Where is she? My fantacia Tango lady who will dance me to the end of love, to the end of life?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWCmubP5h9c

Enjoy the music.

I have read , and believe, that no human alive who grew up on TV has a brain with the capacity to concentrate on the level of a Mozart.
Learsfool, you hear music through the ears of a musician, I through the ears of a listener.
Both states have their advantages and disadvantages.

Hi Schubert - we do mostly agree. Yes, Mozart and Schubert wrote a few compositions in a very short amount of time. This has much to do with the fact that every musician back then had and used much more improvisational skills than most of us do today, with the exception of some jazz musicians and baroque/classical keyboard players. However, I can assure you that neither Mozart or Schubert wrote an entire symphony "in his head" and then wrote it down afterwards. A theme, yes, a short lieder, yes, a simple dance movement for piano such as a minuet, yes, a large multi-movement composition, no. In other words, anything they wrote out that quickly was essentially an improvisation. There are some excellent books out there that speak of Mozart's and Schubert's compositional processes. Both men would work incredibly long hours, with very detrimental effects on their health (that part of the movie Amadeus is very accurate). They were two of the hardest working composers in history, especially when their too too brief lifespans are considered, as Frogman mentioned. I have said in these forums before that I consider the death of Mozart to be the most tragic early death in the history of all the arts, not just music.

You mentioned Bruckner, also a favorite of mine. He was very famous for his improvisations at the organ, none of which he wrote down afterwards, unfortunately for posterity. According to many contemporary accounts, some of them were better than the solo organ works that he did write down. The same goes for J. S. Bach, though of course in his case, everything he wrote down was pretty much a masterwork. Bruckner took much more time to develop as a composer than the others you mentioned. What he became a master of was the extension of long forms, which of course could not be improvised, hence the longer developmental period in his case. He was another workaholic, like pretty much all truly great artists.

Amen Orpheus, after I saw the Robert Duval tango flick I am in love with Tango. Rock dancing is anti-romantic .
I'm planning a Trip to Argentina in Feb., no jet lag for us old folks and better Feb weather than Minnesota.