****I never heard of a coach at a concert******
Nor have I. I see the word "Supervisor" sometimes also. Must be something to do with this Modern Jazz thingy. I am still trying to come to grips with Be-Bop!!
Pops always used to say,"beware of communist Trumpet players and Coaches."
Cheers |
Rok, you seem to have a very faulty memory when it comes to race and the south in the 50's. Do you remember what happened to Emmett Till for "Reckless eyeballing" in Money, MS when he was 14? While you're learning about Mingus's music, you have very little knowledge about Mingus the person; he held his tongue for no one, and if he had gone south, everyone knew that he would have come back in a pinebox.
Enjoy the music.
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Just some thoughts on recent posts: O-10, glad you enjoyed the links. No debate necessary, but commentary always welcomed. Rok: ****What is a Coach, and who is this guy?**** Valerie Ponomarev is one one of the most highly regarded living jazz trumpet players; Russian and out of the Lee Morgan "school". The guy can play! A coach is simply a teacher. "Coach" is used in the Arts as a bow to the assumption that the performer(s) involved are already at a pretty high level of proficiency. To put matters into a certain perspective: when Phil Woods attended Julliard he had to major on clarinet. There was no saxophone major; never mind a jazz major. https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=7jaf_0m5Jw4****Mingus is the best Jazz composer ever!(Small Group)**** Probably. ****Ellington is the best composer of the 20th century**** Jazz? Probably. Any genre? Doubtful. ****If I remember correctly, Mingus did not mention Ellington in his tome. Interesting.**** Interesting indeed. Not surprising. Like most great artists, he had a huge ego. Not surprising that he would not mention the composer that he was referred to as "heir apparent" of. ****Tunes include: Fables of Faubus( I wonder who remembers Faubus), Sophisticated Lady, and Parkeriana(dedicated to Bird).**** All the mention that matters, I think. ****To be fair, some of these artist do seem to resist having their music called Jazz. Maybe we should listen to them.**** I pointed this out about 2000 posts ago. ****I still think he was a hell of a musician. Just not the man I thought he was.**** Many of our musical idols were highly flawed individuals. Personally, I think it is a good thing to recognize this and to take a bit of the edge off of our adulation; I think it puts their work in a better, more honest, and more "musical" perspective. Great observation re Dolphy. Tremendous range, and fantastic (if unusual) style. |
Today's Listen: Charles Mingus -- THE GREAT CONCERT OF CHARLES MINGUS 2CD set. Very long tunes. 7.55 - 14.29 - 21.47 - 22.45 - 27.04 - 27.46. These are the lengths of some / most of the tunes. He often plays too long. Eric Dolphy really earned his money on this set. Tunes include: Fables of Faubus( I wonder who remembers Faubus), Sophisticated Lady, and Parkeriana(dedicated to Bird). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kilr601kki0If he were an actor, you would say he had tremendous range. Fats Waller to Bird!! Interesting music, but I could not help but think of what Armstrong said: "If you can't dance to it, it ain't Jazz". And anything Pops said, was like getting it from the Mount Sinai of Jazz. To be fair, some of these artist do seem to resist having their music called Jazz. Maybe we should listen to them. Mingus makes some very Juvenile and silly comments on the opening of 'Meditations On Integration.' He sure liked to talk the Race Card, esp overseas. This was recorded in France. And curiously, coming from a man who was too 'scared' to tour the South with Armstrong. A Jazz musician afraid to tour the birthplace of Jazz?? I still think he was a hell of a musician. Just not the man I thought he was. Cheers |
Rok, both of those questions are deferred to Frogman, because I thought the guy was a gal, and I never heard of a coach at a concert; this ain't basketball, that let's you know how much I know.
Enjoy the music.
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******with guest coach Valery Ponomarev******
What is a Coach, and who is this guy?
Cheers |
***** Juilliard is giving a concert titled "Lightning, Thunder and Fire" in honor of our impeccable taste on this thread.******
Well, It's about time!!
Mingus / Ellington -- They are both in a class by themselves, but not in the same class. Ellington transends Jazz.
Mingus is the best Jazz composer ever!(Small Group) Ellington is the Best Music Composer of the 20th Century. As the OP said, case closed!!
If I remember correctly, Mingus did not mention Ellington in his tome. Interesting.
BTW, Today's Listen is a Mingus CD. Includes a tune by Ellington. Will post later.
Cheers |
Rok, Juilliard is giving a concert titled "Lightning, Thunder and Fire" in honor of our impeccable taste on this thread. The Juilliard Jazz Ensembles explore the music of Clifford Brown, Max Roach and Art Blakey. It is hard to overestimate the importance of drummers Art Blakey and Max Roach in the mid-’50s expansion of the jazz idiom. Of the components that are central to jazz, rhythmic acuity ranks as highly as the ability to improvise, and both Roach and Blakey were ace timekeepers who expanded jazz rhythms by introducing myriad subtleties—some melodic—into the timekeeper’s art. Both were also bandleaders at a time when it was still a novelty for drummers to be calling the shots. The seminal ensembles they assembled in the ’50s, both of which advanced jazz’s stature on the world stage, are the subject of Lightning, Thunder and Fire: The Sophistication of the Clifford Brown-Max Roach Quintet and Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. This concert by the Juilliard Jazz Ensembles takes place on December 9 in Paul Hall under the direction of guitarist and faculty member Rodney Jones and guest coach Valery Ponomarev. Moscow-born trumpeter Ponomarev played with Blakey for many years, as did Wynton Marsalis (’81, trumpet), the director of Juilliard Jazz, who joined the Jazz Messengers at the age of 19.
Juilliard Jazz Ensembles
Tuesday, December 9, 8:00pm
Lightning, Thunder and Fire: The Sophistication of the Clifford Brown-Max Roach Quintet and Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers with guest coach Valery Ponomarev
What made both groups so groundbreaking will be evident in the evening’s repertoire, which gets at the development of jazz as a composer’s music. The idiom’s modernist movement, called bebop, was still in full swing when both groups were making their first recordings in 1954-55, but where the modern jazzers of the late ’40s were often building on the harmonies of earlier popular songs by songsmiths like Cole Porter or Jerome Kern, Roach and Blakey were part of a wave that encouraged the composition of burnished tunes that were jazz-specific both rhythmically and harmonically. As a result, the term bebop was soon supplanted by the seemingly unyielding title hard bop, a nickname that suggested an entire scene of likeminded individuals doubling down on bluesy grooves. In the December 9 concert, jazz’s maverick streak is revisited during the Roach half of the evening, as the ensemble plots the distance between the Brown-Roach Quintet’s historic re-evaluation of Porter’s “I Get A Kick Out Of You”—a 1934 pop tune the fivesome stretched to the breaking point—and its introduction of “Joy Spring,” a lilting piece composed by the group’s co-bandleader, the trumpeter Clifford Brown.
Though Blakey and Roach enjoyed long, prolific careers, the half of the concert devoted to Blakey’s work reveals a key difference between the two icons. The Brown-Roach Quintet met an abrupt end in 1956 with the tragic car accident that killed Clifford Brown and pianist Richie Powell, but Blakey (one of whose nicknames was Thunder—hence the title of the concert) turned the Jazz Messengers into one of the most enduring small-group concepts in jazz, energized by the steady stream of young talent he handpicked until his own death in 1990. The ensemble functioned as a jazz finishing school before there were jazz education programs, which explains why the tunes selected for the December 9 concert (among them saxist Benny Golson’s “Along Came Betty,” trumpeter Lee Morgan’s “Kofo’s Waltz,” and Wayne Shorter’s “Sincerely Diana”) are among the first classics written by a veritable who’s who of musicians who penned them as Jazz Messengers; all of them would later become icons in their own right. Nurtured by one of the greatest talent enablers in jazz history, they came by their sophistication in a way that many would agree no longer exists.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, they were so complete there was nothing to debate or dispute. I appreciate your efforts in getting us such a thorough disposition on the subject. Although I'm subjectively in the "Mingus camp", a question of this magnitude requires the objectivity and historical perspective you gave it, and since Mingus agreed with you, we can call that case closed.
Enjoy the music.
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BTW, anyone have any thoughts on the Mingus/Ellington links that I posted? Curious. |
I meant the first track on the President album, not the title track. |
I just bought a copy of Wayne Horvitz – The President, after hearing it at a friend's home a number of times. Below is a link to the title track from the album performed live at the Third Door in Seattle Goes Round and RoundIn case I did not get the clickable link entered correctly, below is a cut and paste. Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqzF7v61B0E |
Alexatpos, I enjoyed the Iturralde clip; thanks for sharing. Interesting player. I have heard his very nice clarinet playing previously, but not his saxophone playing. His rather unusual tenor sound reminds me of Don Menza (West Coast). https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=Mk0nLtLpfiYBTW, while I was not able to download the Mayall clip, that record is a blast from the past for me. One of the first "jazz"/blues (non-r&r) records that I bought back in high school |
Great clip, Acman3! Charlie Haden will be sorely missed. Fantastic example of spontaneous counterpoint by the two horn players. Chris Potter is probably the hottest young tenor player right now. To my ears he strikes a nice balance between the typical (and ubiquitous) post-Coltrane/Brecker sensibility and a more traditional tenor tone concept. https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=vPivKtpmvZE |
Dave Holland has been putting out great music for a long time. These same musicians, except Nate Smith subbing for Billy Kilson on drums , put out a real good record in 1999. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2qIZ-BwiE4 |
*****I don't know if I've told this story on this thread before, I don't like to repeat, so let me know if I have.****
You have told it before, and it's good enough to tell again. It's hilarious! I can visualize it so clearly.
Thanks.
Cheers |
Amazing isn't it, how the silence can be deafening sometimes? |
I don't know if I've told this story on this thread before, I don't like to repeat, so let me know if I have.
I was in a funereal limousine on the way to the cemetery, in Miles hometown, and there had been a long silence until somebody mentioned "Miles Davis". That was when a lively conversation about his music ensued.
Out of the clear blue, the grieved widow piped in, "I remember Miles, he was that little dark skinned kid who was always trying to blow the trumpet".
After that, total silence all the way to the cemetery.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10, the answer to the question "who is the greatest jazz composer?", as you correctly point out, should be approached from a historical perspective; and, like the essence of jazz itself, will not be entirely devoid of, at least, a certain amount of subjectivity. This question smacks of the "KOB vs SE" debate. Is one the greatest because we happen to prefer the music on one or the other; or, is it the greatest because, in spite of our preference for one music or the other, the work had the most impact and influence in shaping the direction of the music as a whole (historical perspective). In the case of "KOB vs SE", if we remove the tendency to disqualify it because it HAPPENS to also be (God forbid!) an audiophile favorite, there is no question that KOB had infinitely more impact on the state of jazz than SE did. There is no question that both Ellington and Mingus were great jazz composers (probably the two greatest); and both extremely influential. Interestingly, in spite of the tendency in some camps to both promote the idea that the "great unwashed" dictate what is good or not, and then conveniently abandon this agenda when it suits, I think that in this question we have a fine example of when the "unwashed masses" get it right: Ellington reigns supreme! Ask the average music listener (even the average citizen) who Ellington was and who Mingus was. I think the results of the survey would be pretty obvious. The average person might even be able to name an Ellington tune. A Mingus tune? Unlikely. Ellington was not only a great composer whose compositions (along with Strayhorn) have become "standards" (there's that pesky word again), he was a key influence in the development of Big Band writing which shaped an entire era, was a brilliant orchestrator who pioneered the idea of writing with the individual players' sound and style (an idea used later by Mingus); he also excelled at symphonic, gospel and soundtrack writing. In spite of all his excellence and influence, Mingus did not have such a broad scope as a musician nor composer. I think it can fairly be said that had there been no Ellington, jazz would not be quite the same today. When one considers the developmental timelines of the music during which both Duke and Mingus were active one has to wonder wether the same can be said of Mingus to the same extent. Mingus is often referred to as "the heir apparent to Ellington" and I think that pretty much sums it up. Now, for a more subtle and potentially interesting perspective via the thoughts of Mingus himself: http://mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/what-is-a-jazz-composerAnd on Ellington: http://www.npr.org/2008/11/19/97193567/duke-ellington-the-composer-pt-1 |
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*****Frogman's opinion would carry the most weight in regard to the question of whether or not Ellington is the most important composer; *****
I disagree. Any person who has been an Aficionado as long as you have, and has seen / heard Trane in person, knew Miles and his Aunt, has all the Jazz cred needed to decide who is the greatest Jazz composer. :)
Besides, ALL opinions are subjective, Otherwise, they would be facts.
Cheers |
Rok, each day I'm being made aware of how many killers I don't have. Besides being prolific, Mingus is one of the most unusual composers. Frogman's opinion would carry the most weight in regard to the question of whether or not Ellington is the most important composer; that's because my opinion is purely subjective, while he views it from a historical, as well as a musicians point of view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6GkA54n_QThis is about as original as you can get. Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Charles Mingus -- CHANGES TWO These two CDs, Changes One and Changes Two, demonstrate that in order to hear Modern, Progressive or Avant-Garde Jazz, one need not listen to current day, wannabes(noise makers). This is very coherent and enjoyable modern music, done by the greatest Master of them all. It will grab you, and hold you from start to finish. If you love Jazz, you gotta have both. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upfBe_sGASYI always thought Ellington was the greatest Jazz composer. Hmmmmmm. As NOMAD said,"I must re-evaluate". Cheers |
Alex, that jazz blues fusion was one of a kind, what a "hodge podge"; it certainly evokes mixed emotions. T- Bone Walker was as much a showman, as he was a blues artist. There no doubt about "Little Walter" being the king of the blues harpist; here he is on "My Babe" which was one of his biggest hits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3cKJ42HAd0Enjoy the music. |
Rok, "Stereo Review" is much better when it comes to jazz. They recommended Flip Phillips's "Try a Little Tenderness" album; he's an artist we'll have to peruse. I'll get back to you after I've gone through the magazines I can find. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6e3-L8-qrQEnjoy the music. |
Gypsy Queen - AWESOME!! The music was pretty nice also. :)
Not a huge fan of Chico Hamilton. I do remember the Album Cover, and him in his Vampire Cape! Szabo was good on all the clips.
"Stereophile" recommends music based on how it sounds on "Audiophile" systems. Sort of like demonstration CDs. The music seems to be secondary, if at all, in importance. But good luck. I think their "Desert Island" list, includes a recording of a helicopter engine at full throttle.
You don't happen to have any old STEREO REVIEW magazines do you? You would do much better there.
Cheers |
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Jazzmen playing on albums of another genre, here are two albums that I like. First John Mayall live 'Jazz Blues Fusion' with Blue Mitchell on trumpet... http://youtu.be/6MMX5DwBaZQOn this T Bone Walker's album there are more jazzmen than on jazz at philharmonic editions. 'Very Rare', with Dizyy, Herbie Mann, Al Cohn, Zoot Sims,Fathead Newman,G.Mulligan,etc. Great album http://youtu.be/Mc4abSHRhEchttp://youtu.be/QRzawYcbmJoListening to this J.J. Cale song led me to a great harp player, so if someone is in such mood, here it is, first J.J.Cale, than Charlie McCoy's album 'Harpin the Blues' http://youtu.be/lOINPNtuUhchttp://youtu.be/Nj7vjn8hUDw |
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O-10: *****When I bought them ages ago, I simply listened, enjoyed the music without going into the "sidemen" who made it happen. Now that I'm more aware of how important they are in making the music,****** You nailed it. I feel the same. I am now even more aware of that on the old Motown stuff. A lot of Jazz guys played in the bands backing the popular Motown groups. One reason why it was the pinnacle of POP music. I used to really "Dig" this guy. I have lots of his stuff on LP. See and hear him differently now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlaygvkd-VcDid you notice on the Preservation Hall clip, there was no Clarinet or Banjo!! Not a good sign. Esp for a Nawlins based group. Cheers |
Frogman, your post came in right on time, I was in the mood for some "cool jazz" when I heard Thad Jones and Mel Lewis; yes, all you musicians and the music you make is worthy of thanks, and I appreciate it every day.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, what's most amazing about these "old killers" are the new things I'm discovering from them. When I bought them ages ago, I simply listened, enjoyed the music without going into the "sidemen" who made it happen. Now that I'm more aware of how important they are in making the music, I can appreciate each contribution, which means I appreciate the music even more now than I did before. Keep em coming!
Enjoy the music.
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Happy Thanksgiving! Lots of good suggestions lately! An ambitious work. Changing the small group Shorter compositions to Big Band. Sometimes works better than others. I have been enjoying it lately. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZl12wxfghU |
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***you finally came up with a Mingus I could live without***
Then, you should surely be able to do without Air, Water and Food.
You do know the meaning of the word "Blasphemy"?? :)
You have a Happy Thanksgiving Also.
BTW, that was Mingus' 'Changes One'. We'll get to 'Changes two' after Thanksgiving. Don't wanna spoil your Thanksgiving appetite!
Cheers |
Gentlemen, I hope you will find this album interesting as well. Pedro Iturralde quartet and Hampton Hawes...Iturralde(b.1929) is spanish composer, teacher and player of many instruments http://youtu.be/bBhMHm7hpq0 |
You can't win em all; although Bags and Trane is a killer, I must have bought it when it came out, and you finally came up with a Mingus I could live without, but that goes for almost all of our favorite artists.
You going in one direction, and me going in another is working out just fine for me; I'm adding old killers that I thought I had, while at the same time we're both discovering new music, which is what it's all about.
HAVE A HAPPY THANKSGIVING !
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I said it once and I'll say it again, "There was a jazz explosion in the late 50's, early 60's"; every time I think I've got all the killers from that time, somebody comes up with a killer I don't have. This "After Hours" ranks with the best I've ever heard; except for the one "Satin Doll", a stripper, used to open her act, but maybe the scenery had a lot to do with that version, "Play it again Sam".
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Listen: Roy Haynes/Phineas Newborn/Paul Chambers -- WE THREE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwQKh9RDjWwOne of my most recent purchases. Excellent!! Newborn, quietly and effortlessly, plays out of his head. We won't hear stuff like this, in Kathmandu or Japan!! :) Ain't got it? Git outta Jazz! Cheers |
Rok, now you're getting the hang of things; a musician, is a musician, is a musician whether he's in Kathmandu or New York, they're a special breed. No matter what instrument I pick up it begins to make noise the instant I touch it. Those guys were born with something special. Remember my best friends brother, and the next door neighbor; brother taught school until he retired, while the neighbor became a musician who made music for the people. I never even heard brother play; it seems he was more fond of traveling, skiing, sailing, and doing all the things his education and teaching salary enabled him to do, than he was of making music. There was some boss improvisation going on there. Let's keep things in this same groove for awhile. How about a little blues from the east; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI2PvbAGNBc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPVlWIwSqYIThis one has beautiful photos to go with the music; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlmpMnHEstMI have beautiful photos of the lady who plays koto with Hiroshima from when they were in St. Louis. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: I liked "Osamu Kitajima" best of all. But all were very good listening. However, you ain't heard real Jazz, until you have heard Jazz from / in, Kathmandu, Nepal. These guys can Play! The band is called 'Cadenza'. Real improvisation going on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTCc7glkKmoCheers |
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"As for the rest"; Bing Crosby is "I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas". To a certain extent, our minds are computers that have been programmed; this is especially true in regard to our subconscious; everyone knows exactly what Jesus, Joseph, and Mary looked like. While we can over ride our subconscious, I choose to "go with the flow" on Christmas music.
In regard to "Hello Dolly", all of the above have been more programmed than the original; consequentially, all of the above sound better than the original. If my posts seem contradictory, so are many of the facts of life, just "Go with the flow".
Enjoy the music.
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****as for the rest...............****
I beg your pardon??
Cheers |
Rok, I selected my records the same way you did, some turned out good, others didn't; I'm looking at a stack that didn't, they'll go to Goodwill, or the dumpster.
Lee Morgan was the ultimate jazz musician, you can bet none of his records are going to the dumpster, while other very well known musicians are leaving here.
Lennie Tristano said "You can make your fingers reproduce your deepest feelings"; Red Garland's fingers reproduced his deepest feelings, I could hear that song better than any vocalist could sing it; his fingers confirmed what Lennie Tristano said.
Enjoy the music.
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