***** How do you think that happened? He was not from the South or the Caribbean Islands.*****
Any competent musician can play in the blues style. He listened to Tapes and LPs of American Blues players? He was born in 1939, so I think we can eliminate him as being the creator of the blues.
If your point is to say that Africa is the birth place of the Blues, if that is so, where are all the African Blues players? The tradition? The body of work?
I have a couple of his CDs. His music is interesting and in some cases almost hypnotic. Like a lot of third world music, a little of him goes a long way.
Africa's contribution to the world, is limited to long distance runners, EBOLA and AIDS.
Cheers |
Rok, did you notice that Ali Farka Toure, who is from Mali, has an almost fully developed blues style. How do you think that happened? He was not from the South or the Caribbean Islands. Good to see you back Ramonron, See O-10 they are coming back. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjpRccuiZPg |
Rok, once you enter "Mary Lou Ville" you never want to leave.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, now we got the Malian Blues, I told you it was universal.
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Today's Listen: Mary Lou Williams -- SOLO RECITAL Montreux Jazz festival 1978 This is the entire CD. Received it yesterday also. Read the reviews below the clip. I have never before, seen such praise heaped upon any artist. She is much more than I could ever put into words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uakBe89GldI&list=RDuakBe89GldI#t=894Cheers |
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Rok, your responses are what keeps me going. We gained some people who might have been from the other side of the world because they didn't speak English too well. People who were already on this forum would have agreed with Frogman, and Learsfool no matter what they said. Acman is the only person from here who's still with us, looks like he's going to stay.
In regard to the people who were victimized, cheated, and disrespected, I think about them often; I saw Art Blakey in a dump, a low life joint, the reason I never mentioned it is because tears came to my eyes, I couldn't enjoy the set for wandering, "What's the great Art Blakey doing playing in a joint like this." That was in what is referred to as "The dark years".
I'm glad you bring things like that into the conversation.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
****Many times when a thread loses people, they don't come back. I had that feeling when they were dragging me into all that totally unnecessary, never ending bickering, that we would lose people on this thread, and we did; maybe they'll come back****
Keep in mind that Music threads are a distinct minority on this site. Jazz is a minority within that minority. Traditioanal / Classic Jazz (Jazz-Jazz) is a minority within that minority.
There aren't that many people here who are interested in Music, fewer still in "Jazz' and even fewer in Jazz-Jazz.
They won't come back because they were not that interested in the beginning. I suspect that when Monk or Mingus were mentioned, it was the same to them, as it is to me, when they mentioned their favorites. Their minds went blank.
Some were 'Audiophiles', who thought all opinions on Jazz should be treated as equal. Like their opinions on gear. I.E., there is no right or wrong, no good or bad, no great or mundane. No noise at all. Whatever a person says or plays, must be accepted as valid.
I will never break faith with the people who created this wonderful music. They were victimized, cheated and disrepected, while they lived. I will not stand by and watch their legacy be stolen. At least not without speaking out and defending their wonderful and unique contribution to the world..
Until you are prepared to kowtow to the lost posters, they won't be back.
Cheers |
O-10:
****meaning that there seems to be fewer people responding on other threads as well.*****
That seems to be true. I think one of the reasons is because they never agree on anything. And I mean Anything! After a while folks think they are just talking in circles. Never, is a consensus reached. And consensus is the purpose of debate or discussion.
What is the point of asking a question if you will get as many different answers as you get responses. All absolutley sure, that their's is the only correct answer.
Being on Audiogon is Like being adrift in a raft in the middle of the Pacific, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink. A man can die of thirst in the middle of an ocean.
Besides, once a person says, "the only thing that counts is what 'I' hear", then discussion becomes pointless. Coupled with the 'belief' that ALL components have their own individual 'sound'. Pointless indeed!!
Cheers |
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Rok, here are some blues with a different twist; this is where two great rivers meet, the Ganges and the Mississippi, down in a different kind of delta. Ry Cooder and Vishwa Mohan Bhatt join to bring us double delta blues, from Mississippi to Calcutta, including a smoking tabla that keeps an East Indian beat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2ygVcw4SCkEnjoy the music. |
Normally someone else would have responded to your post because we had more people responding; that's related to the not so clear "all threads seem to be coming up short", meaning that there seems to be fewer people responding on other threads as well. Many times when a thread loses people, they don't come back. I had that feeling when they were dragging me into all that totally unnecessary, never ending bickering, that we would lose people on this thread, and we did; maybe they'll come back.
Enjoy the music.
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"The least fatiguing "; Why does she affect me in that same fashion? It's because she plays the music and not the notes, she plays the music in between the notes. An example of that is on "Mack The Knife"; I've heard this song a zillion times, but never have I heard it sound so "musical" as when Mary Lou Williams played it; it was musical with a jazz foundation.
Mary lou was a natural born musician; her mother would not let a music teacher get close to her daughter, said it would ruin her natural ability; she learned how to play by playing. As a child she played "chitlin struts" (never been to one) and rent parties. Every time she strikes a key, the sound rings out "Mary Lou Williams", her individuality is just that unique.
Rok, I bet right now, you're having a hard time stopping to do anything else but listening to the CD's you recently acquired by Mary Lou; that's what I meant by going to "Mary Lou Ville", now you don't want to leave.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
****This clip is good jazz jazz; but it sounds like the same music that I've heard so many times before, that it's boring***
How can that lineup / tune be 'boring'? I think you have drank the Kool-aid.
But you are correct in that you have been at this a lot longer than I have. Therefore, I think anything I like, will be old-hat, or 'boring' to you.
***In regard to posts on threads, all seem to come up short.****
I don't understand this. To what are you referring?
Cheers |
Rok, when I don't respond to your post, it's because I don't have anything to say, good or bad, I'm not inspired; not because I didn't look and listen.
I don't know how many times you've submitted Oscar Peterson and I didn't respond. This clip is good jazz jazz; but it sounds like the same music that I've heard so many times before, that it's boring; I've been listening to this music a lot longer than you.
When more people were here, someone would respond; those "unnecessary" arguments seem to have ran some people off who haven't come back. I'm not in any way suggesting that you change anything in regard to your submissions, just because I don't respond; they may be someone else's cup of tea, just what they were looking for.
In regard to posts on threads, all seem to come up short.
Enjoy the music.
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Ken Schaphorst has finally put his tribute to Harald Alden. One of my very favorite recordings. Wild takes on Alden, but what fun. Check out the rest of the album! This is one of my speaker check out tunes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfx5BbaP-oo |
Rok, would you like a CD with Miles Davis, Kenny Dorham, Dizzy Gillespie, Red Rodney, Walter Bishop, Al Haig, John Lewis, Thelonious Monk, Ray Brown, Kenny Clark, Max Roach, and I done got tired of typing names; that's "Verve 314-527-452-2 Charlie Parker- Birds Best Bop"
Enjoy the music.
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****despite some major disagreements that have happened. ***
Why Learsfool, whatever do you mean? |
O-10:
I know this is blasphemy, but Bird was never one of my favorite players. Maybe the quality of the sound, of most of his recordings, has something to do with that. But, I will try it out.
Cheers |
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Learsfool, I care more about music than I do holding a grudge; if you like, we can consider you our reference classical consultant. Since my hands are full with this thread, I don't have time to visit others.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, "Bird's Best Bop" is a must have CD; it contains cuts from the LP's I bought way back when I first started collecting records. The sidemen on each cut read like a who's who of jazz. It's been said that Bird's fingers moved so fast that you couldn't even see them when he was playing.
Monk sounds better as a sideman with Bird than he does on his own records. A fledgling Miles can be heard trying to keep up. The cuts on this CD are so complete, there's no way I could pick out a best. Unfortunately it's not on "You tube", so I can't give you a sample, but since this should be in your collection, buy it if you ain't got it.
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Listen: Oscar Peterson + Harry Edison + Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson Slow drag Indeed!! Cleanhead can not only sing the blues, but can play a little alto as well.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCcUUtSlAAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCX7oHbyNVU The title should have included ' + Joe Pass '. He is his usual brilliant self throughout. Oscar is always very good, but when his is 'with' anyone else, esp Trumpet players, it's rises to another level. Nice Cover Photo. Cheers |
Hi guys - I am still lurking here, and feel compelled to agree 100% with Rok's last post. This is a major reason why so many professional musicians do not have much respect for audiophiles - most of them, in my experience, don't actually care about the music at all, they just think they do because they have purchased expensive gear. They really care about what they think is accurate sound reproduction. The irony here for me and many other musicians is that many of their expensive systems don't actually sound anything like live, acoustically produced music in a good space, which is supposedly (and should be!) the standard. I am glad that there are some on this forum who do care about music - this thread is definitely the best one on this board, despite some major disagreements that have happened.
There are many more discussions about music on the vinyl asylum, though most of it is about classical rather than jazz. There is a forum on there specifically for music, which is very active, and does discuss jazz quite a bit. I would suggest that those of you follow this thread and who care about music sign up over there as well. I think you will enjoy the discussions over there, especially if you love classical, too. |
*****Have you ever sampled what passes for music on this forum?******
This is a forum for buying and selling gear. Talking about gear. What passes for music here? Nothing passes for music here, because there is no music here. This thread accounts for over 60% of the total music posts on Audiogon. That says it all.
I don't think music reproduction is the goal of most Audiophiles. It's Sound reproduction, along with the appreciation and pride in ownership of well made, beautiful, and expensive electronic devices.
Cheers |
*****I never realized those jazz musicians we admire, could not have made a living without Europe and Japan. I knew about them going over there to escape racism here, but after that was no longer a major problem, I didn't realize they could not make a living without Europe and Japan even today. Have you ever sampled what passes for music on this forum?*****
As the world begin to shrink, due to air travel, esp after world war ll, rather than fly from NY to LA to play a gig, for just a few miles more, you could fly to Europe, and have an all new audience. And one that was starved for entertainment. Not just a city, but an entire continent. Including the Soviet Union.
It just made good business sense.
Escaping Racism? Hardly. They went to a continent that had just recently murdered 50 million people because of race.
The music was something different, the people that played it were different, so it was a natural attraction, esp for the avant garde (hip) crowd. Same in all countries.
But I never bought into the idea that Europeans 'understood' or 'appreciated' Jazz more than Americans. They loved Monk and The Duke, but they loved Elvis and the Beatles more. Just like here, and everywhere else around the world. No one ever said the Great Unwashed had brains or taste.
No one can make a living just in the USA any longer. Not even Ford, GM, Microsoft etc........ It's getting to be one world, and one market, for everything.
Cheers |
Two more winners from the OP.
The Fire Within:
I have this on CD. The book that inspired it might be weird, but this is great stuff. Bang is one of the few to make the Violin work in the Jazz idiom. Of course there is Stephane Grappelli and Stuff Smith. Bang is a Viet Vet. Great Tune.
I have the Bang and Sun Ra CD, "A tribute to Stuff Smith"
Chenrezig:
I will have to ADMIT I liked this. I resisted at first, but it wore me down. It was just too good. Excellent!! If this had been played by Mingus, and it sounded like it could have, I would have declared the tune, an example of his genius.
I think Cherry used to play the Piccolo Trumpet.
Thanks for the clips.
Cheers |
I was immersed in ancient Tibet when I got this album; the books I was reading must have been a hundred years old, that made it really come to life. These words are all about Tibetan beliefs and their kind of Buddhism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGKk4goM2QkEnjoy the music. |
I have an LP by Billy Bang titled "The Fire Within" that was inspired by books written by Carlos Casteneda. These were some really weird books that were supposed to be true; I found them very entertaining, but hardly believable. That sets you up for the music on this album, with William Parker on bass; it's definitely different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CQ2wtSACmAEnjoy the music. |
William Parker Quartet:
(1) "He is a prominent and influential musician in the New York City experimental jazz scene",.....wiki
(2) He also wrote a book entitled, "Who Owns Music?".
Pretty much sums him up. Not Jazz-Jazz, but simple, and pleasant enough, "Experimental-Jazz"?? Whatever that is.
Nice drum playing on both cuts.
Cheers |
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Acman3:
Snarky Puppy ft. Bobby McFerrin:
Nice performance, let down by amateurish camera work and sound. Too shakey and too far away.
I see they formed in Texas at UNT. I asked the question some time ago, "what happens to all the students studying Jazz in college". I guess this is at least a partial indication of an answer. However they should realize they are not in college now. That college boy look will keep them for being taken serious.
Supposed Miles' quintet, had been called "Miles Davis and his Snarky Puppies"? Jazz history would be different. :)
On the other hand, this is not Jazz-Jazz, but, Fusion-Jazz. Different rules and expectations.
Cheers |
King Pleasure:
Excellent!! Loved them both!! I will have to research, and get him in my collection. How do you find this stuff??? I have never heard of him.
Cheers |
O-10:
Old vs New:
The most correct way of stating your position, which I think, is the same as mine, is that Ellington got it right way back in the day. There are two kinds of music, good and bad. It's as simple as that.
Jazz is no different than any other genre. They begin, increase in quanity and quality, reach a peak that is sometimes called the 'golden' or 'Classical' age, and then, start a slow decline. That's true for the entire genre, as well as for each individual player. The only ones that avoid the decline, are the ones that die young. They remain great, and in their prime, forever!!
As you implied, there is enough old stuff out there to take me past life expectancy. I do not feel compelled to 'move on', just for the sake of moving on. I still listen to old stuff like, Mozart, as well.
Cheers |
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I like the second "Song For My Father" but I didn't like the first one; it had nothing to do with the music, but it was taken too far away from the original; that's my "idiosyncrasy"; singers should write their own lyrics or just go "scat" crazy and not have lyrics. That's a reverent song Silver wrote for his father, and all fathers, but other than that, it was OK. The second version is better.
I will definitely have to get some more of Dee Dee, I liked her group.
Lynne Arrial and her group was nice too, I liked them all; they put a new twist on an old song.
Bobby reminded me of when I drug that cotton sack down dem long rows, ain't no shade in a cotton field. (I went to church on Sunday back then)
I bought Dee Dee's tribute to Silver when it came out.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I never realized those jazz musicians we admire, could not have made a living without Europe and Japan. I knew about them going over there to escape racism here, but after that was no longer a major problem, I didn't realize they could not make a living without Europe and Japan even today. Have you ever sampled what passes for music on this forum? Even after stretching my mentality to it's limits and then some, I wonder how can they really like that stuff.
When I was getting into the high end, and such places as "High end emporiums" existed, I spent so much time in these places that my wife thought I was seeing another women. I was at this one particular establishment so often, that one of the customers thought I worked there. He had selected all top of the line ARC electronics plus speakers to match, and asked me to help carry it out; since I had to pay my rent some kind of way, I obliged without calling on the establishment. I was most curious as to what kind of music he was listening to on all this top of the line equipment. Since he had a CD with him I asked if he would play it.
After we loaded the trunk of his big Mercedes, I got all comfortable in the small auditioning theater, preparing myself for this exquisite music. Although I didn't know what to expect, I knew it was going to be grand. When he put on a CD of some kind of English Marches, I could have kicked myself for helping him load the trunk; you could play that stuff on a graphenola, and not miss anything. So much for matching the best equipment with the music.
Enjoy the music.
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Today I went back, way back, so far back that I didn't even know what jazz was; but I knew I liked the music whatever name they gave it. I went all the back to "King Pleasure". I can't even remember where I heard his music, it's for sure I didn't hear it on my record player because I didn't have one; maybe it was on the radio, or a juke box blaring out on to the sidewalk, since I was too young to go inside where the juke box was. Now that we have established it was a long time ago, let's hear a little of "King Pleasure's" music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2N8bVpRneQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK0Z4vqH5KMWhen I heard this, it made me feel real groovy and I was gone; I've been gone every since. Enjoy the music. |
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"The Great Lakes Suites"; that sounds so majestic, who could resist? "Free / Avant Garde school of jazz"; I always fell for that, I have two stacks of records, half of which fall in that category, they are all destined for removal. I even went to live shows when that moniker was flashed; "Now that they're through tuning up, maybe they can play some music," was always my impression. Why don't I send your friend a donation, and let him keep his CD.
I may be forever restricted to "old, new music"; it'll be new to me. Sometimes my old music sounds new, I seem to hear it better. The more new music I hear, the less I want to hear; it's like eating something disagreeable, that can ruin my appetite for days. Before I had that argument with Frogman about new music, I was constantly having it with myself; I'm glad that's settled, somebody else can pay for the "new noise".
Now that I know there's so much old music I haven't heard, I don't have time for the new, and I'm sure those poverty driven estates can use the money. Since the original musicians never got paid what they were worth, their heirs can benefit.
Enjoy the music
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*****Wadada Leo Smith; "The Great Lakes Suites",*****
Normally not my cup of tea, and squarely within the noise category.
However, I know Leo. We finished High School together. Played in the high school band's trumpet section for 4 years. He played First Trumpet, I played Last Trumpet. I took his sister to the prom. Therefore:
This is the greatest Jazz CD in the history of mankind!!! :)
He went into the Army out of high school, and played in Army Bands. His Father played the blues, and was quite big in the local (delta) Blues scene.
He is really well known in the "Free / Avant Garde" school of Jazz. Used to play a lot with Braxton and Shepp. And the guys in Chicago. Very nice guy.
Buy his stuff!!
Cheers. |
*****They gave this 4 out of 5 stars on both sonics and performance, so it's got to be hot. Let's go for "Sweet Loraine"*****
****Didn't find "Morphoses" on "you tube", this is the best I could do*******
I think enthusiastic reviews like the two above, are as a result of low expectations.
Sort of like this:
You ask a Math teacher, "whats 30 divided by 3? The teacher responds, errr duhhhh, "10" Ok, so what's the big deal? There is none. What would you expect.
You now go to the Zoo and ask a hyena the same question. The hyena responds with "10". Holy Shit!!!!!! Now this is a huge deal!!!! The biggest deal in the history of mankind!!!!
Even if the hyena had said "4". hahahahahahaha
Same with these young folks playing Jazz. You are so used to noise, and you expect noise, so that anything they play, that even slightly resembles Jazz, makes people overreact.
It's understandable.
Both clips were ok. Again nothing special. Nothing I would buy.
Cheers |
*****maybe I was wrong about Bheki Mseleku*****
Well, I'm not sure how you felt about him previously. The clip was nice enough. It didn't grate or irritate. Nothing ground-breaking. Pleasant enough to listen to. Which BTW, in this day and age is actually saying something.
Cheers |
Rok, I don't have that Roland Kirk, but I'll have to get it. Fortunately I've got almost everything by Mingus, and I never get tired of listening, his music has weathered the times.
Rahsaan is one of a kind; there have been none before him, and there will be none after him.
Enjoy the music
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OK folks, I'm doing something different this time, instead of listening before hand, and recommending, I'm going to use "Stereophile's" recommendations; and we can listen together. Ai Murakami Quartet; "Conception" is our first CD, with her as the leader. (don't ask me) They gave this 4 out of 5 stars on both sonics and performance, so it's got to be hot. Let's go for "Sweet Loraine" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAldOWTGjHoNow we're going to listen and review all these together. Next is Nate Radley; "Morphoses". Didn't find "Morphoses" on "you tube", this is the best I could do, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wue_zFaMTuQLast, but not least is, Wadada Leo Smith; "The Great Lakes Suites", this one gets 5 out of 5 stars on performance and over 4 on sonics; you know it's got to be smokin. I saw a few familiar names, although that doesn't mean a whole lot to me. The bottom line is, it's been said that I'm not ready for "new music", maybe that's so; the question is, "are you ready for new jazz? We'll listen to these and see who is ready for what? BTW just got this out of the mailbox, these recommendations are fresh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEvR_xyTnDUEnjoy the music. |
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Rok, I liked your post; that was at a different time, and "entertaining" was required; however, it detracted from the seriousness of the music.
Enjoy the music.
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Where would the music be if it were not for the 'entertainers'?
Consider for a moment, what if the first Jazz players to come out of Nawlins would have been from the Ornette Coleman school of Jazz. We can be thankful, it was the ultimate entertainer, Louis Armstrong!
Brooding, introspective, self-centered 'genuis', was not what the public wanted. It was the antithesis of what Jazz was at that time. There was a depression and / or a war going on. People wanted to be entertained.
However, I understand the sense of your post. And in that sense, you are correct. But, I consider Mary Lou's music to be very entertaining. Maybe that's the trick, express yourself, and be entertaining at the same time. That's the genuis?
Cheers |
