*****It was hip 50 years ago, but it's like having roast beef and potatoes one time too many *****
Heresy:
a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards.
And from his own home-boy!!! Is this what we've come to??? Miles being Dissed on aficionados??
BTW, Pops always said, "ain't nothing wrong with me, that a good piece of roast beef couldn't fix". |
Did I tell yall about seeing Ahmad Jamal at Rick's on North Shore drive in Chicago? My memory ain't what it used to be, or maybe it never was very good, I forget; but at any rate I don't want to tell the same story twice.
|
Rok, this is just one of the albums I listen to when I wander off the jazz reservation. The St. Louis main Library is a huge building a city block square, and I don't how tall; they have some of the most amazing old books hundreds of years old. I checked out this one book written buy an anthropologist who lived with the aborigines about a hundred or so years ago, this was when they communicated over long distances telepathically, and they never lived inside any kind of dwelling, including a tent. Any kind of jail sentence was a death sentence; those people had to be able to see the stars, and feel a campfire. "Brolga", music near the end of this CD, sounds closest to music I have that was recorded at a "corroboree"; that's what I play when I go completely native, and get into the "Dreamtime". Listen to this music and travel to the "Dreamtime". https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dr+didg+out+of+the+woods+ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGD7nFKFen8Enjoy the music. |
|
Schubert ,Frogman is probably correct , but depending on how old the pbs recording was, Wessel Anderson is another possibility.
I have never heard anybody criticize Wynton Marsalis's ability. He is as good as there ever was on the trumpet., Imo, And the bands, always the best. Some people criticize that he doesn't take the music forward, but takes it back to it 's roots. It's like politics, what one person loves about a person, others hate.
If we go any farther full scale warfare will breakout!
My own personel story is, I have every record Wynton put out till around 2000, when I noticed I did not listen to them after the 1st, OMG, playing. I found more enjoyment out of the other players and started listening to them. No hate for Wynton, just listen to him less often. I realize I have possibly/probably missed some great playing over the last 15 years, but life's not done yet, maybe I will go back. |
****It's hard for us peasants in 'fly-over territory' to resist taking shots at you folks 'way up there' in New York.****
That's alright; we're used to it. However, as usual, it's important, for the sake of the art, to set the record straight. I have news for you: contrary to the often used fall-back position, you're a jazz fan. You obviously know that; but, wait for it.... here it comes....you are NOT part of the "great unwashed". Maybe not as squeaky clean as is possible, but definitely not unwashed 😆. Your burden IS great.
****The Bolshoi.......****
Fantastic! I would bet you that it's cheaper to get the Bolshoi there from Russia than to get the NYP there from NYC. But that's a whole other discussion.
****Trio Tres Bien.......local guys..... Peterson Trio.****
Ya think?! 😉
From the Prodigal Son to The World's Greatest Authority: keep up the good fight. Keep bathing 'though, will ya. |
NYC Arts Scene:
It's hard for us peasants in 'fly-over territory' to resist taking shots at you folks 'way up there' in New York.
Love Supreme Catch:
I Knows my scriptures, and my Trane :)
NYPO:
The Bolshoi Ballet came to my small town and did the Nutcracker. Just saying.
Trio Tres Bien:
If you have the CD, and read the notes, then you know these are local guys. Won't be mistaken for The Oscar Peterson Trio.
Elaine Elias:
If someone would destroy all recorded traces, and memory, of, Ella, Billie, Sarah, Dee Dee, Etta, etc....... Then Elias would be fantastic.
The World's foremost Authority has Spoken.
Cheers |
Rok, I got my CD out, and it's easy for me to see how "Tender Hearted" is your favorite; it has a subtle "Gospel grace" that came from deep within the heart of the artists. Those musicians are well known and loved in this community; "Tender Hearted" was a projection of who they are, as well as the people who they associate with.
When I listened to my CD, it was easy for me to understand Frogman's criticisms; that "youtube" had so much distortion that Jeter's playing louder for contrast and emphasis sounded like banging. Sorry I couldn't find a better "you tube".
Enjoy the music.
|
There are a lot of fine Jazz players in the Twin Cities and in accordance with the "Minnesota nice" laws in force here they are all humble .
OBVIOUSLY jazz and classical players as well must gravitate to bigger cities or they would starve to death . |
I love Elaine Elias as well, I like her piano playing as well or better than her voice.
Her and Karen Allison are my go-to girls among current jazz divas, Sassy and Carmen among the deceased . |
Good catch Rok, they do indeed (I think you meant "quote" not "sample") quote A Love Supreme a couple of times. First time is at 2:47 by the tenor player. |
Eliane Elias: have always been a fan. I really like her mix of Brazilian and jazz. I agree, she is hot. Btw, the trumpet player on the first clip is Randy Brecker who she was married to; brother of the great Michael Brecker. Nice clips, thanks.
Trio Tres Bien: not my cup of tea; sorry. I just don't feel the playing is on a particularly high level. That drummer has bad rhythm! Listen to his solo, the time falls apart at around 1:40 and is not steady the rest of the time; rushes and slows down. And the piano player bangs on the keys too much. I think they have a good concept in mind and simply don't have the tools to execute well. IMO. |
????? *****Although I've never been to New York, they seem to think what ever originates there has or should set the standard; "It ain't necessarily so."****
I agree that the NYC arts community seems to be of this point of view, but this is probably true of all major cities in all countries. They are full of themselves. :) I remember seeing a program on TV about the NYPO playing in North Korea. They can take their asses to that nut job country, but I bet they have never played in Mississippi or Kansas etc....... Too hip I guess. ?????
To quote someone we all know: "Lawdy, lawdy, my burden is great" (or something like that)😀 And knowing that you gentlemen value truth and reality above else, allow me to tell you how the NY arts community really feels; as much as one can generalize about these things. There is as much truth to those assertions as there is to the notion that prejudices like that are borne out of insecurity or inferiority complex; well, probably a lot less. First of all, and particularly since by your own admission you have never been to NY, on what do you base that notion on? Where do you guys get this stuff? Not really important, but just curious. Of importance:
The truth is that in major metropolitan areas one finds the greatest number of artists, and for that reason, as well as others, one also generally finds the best artists; with notable exceptions, of course. They want to be where "the action is" and be challenged. This is particularly true of jazz at the present time. That is not to say that there aren't great artists in smaller cities; there are. The attitude of artists in the major metropolitan areas like NY is not what you describe. Jazz players have historically respected and sometimes revered the playing traditions of smaller cities like St. Louis, Chicago, Phlladelphia, Kansas City and many others. They even have names for the styles born in some of the places; "Texas tenor" is just one. Re the NY Philharmonic:
The NY Philharmonic didn't choose to go to Korea, they were invited to perform there and it was seen as an opportunity to improve relations between the two countries. If the Philharmonic has not performed in Miss. or Kansas, why haven't those two cities invited them? Why hasn't the leadership and arts community in those cities sponsored them? I assure you that if the interest, financial and otherwise, were there in these cities, the orchestra would be there. Why put such a negative and distorted spin on this issue? |
O-10:
Got out my CD of Trio Tres Bien. It was a lot better than I remember it being the first time around. My favorite tune is 'Tender-Hearted'.
Their sound belies the small size of the group. The really get a lot out of just the three players. I said once before, that the composition of the picture on the back of the CD could have been better. But they play very well.
*****Although I've never been to New York, they seem to think what ever originates there has or should set the standard; "It ain't necessarily so."****
I agree that the NYC arts community seems to be of this point of view, but this is probably true of all major cities in all countries. They are full of themselves. :) I remember seeing a program on TV about the NYPO playing in North Korea. They can take their asses to that nut job country, but I bet they have never played in Mississippi or Kansas etc....... Too hip I guess.
*****I don't approach music from an intellectual point of view*****
John Philip Sousa says:
"Jazz will endure just as long people hear it through their feet instead of their brains."
You can find any number of great musicians to support ANY point of view on Jazz and Music. I think Sousa nailed it.
Cheers |
Frogman, I love that recording, and always heard Miles in Ambrose's playing, but I never thought of the connection to the great 60's band. The interplay of Ambrose and Walter Smith lll does remind me of that band.Thanks! |
|
Schubert, Sherman Irby is his name; terrific player. |
Rok, that was a highly relevant question in regard to where the "new jazz" was created. When I was traveling a lot, and going to clubs, the music was different everywhere I went. In none of the places would I consider the new music any better, it was all good, just different; Atlanta was different from LA, and Chicago different from St. Louis. Although I've never been to New York, they seem to think what ever originates there has or should set the standard; "It ain't necessarily so." There was even a difference in jazz from E. St. Louis and St. Louis, Mo. The jazz from E. St. Louis was the most individualistic, it was the most "Afrocentric", while jazz from the other side of the river was what you call "jazz jazz"; closer connected to "Bird" and that lineage. Jazz from E. St. Louis had no lineage, which is why when I went to a new lounge and heard a new group, I was floored; they used instruments like the African finger piano, and unusual drums. The only group I know from St. Louis that has recorded and played consistently over the years, that I heard a lot live, was the "Trio Trebien". There is no group I've heard live more times than I've heard these guys. This same tune on my CD sounds much better; while I like everything on the CD, this is my favorite tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo1umU82ZAUI don't approach music from an intellectual point of view; Ambrose's music seemed to wander, at times like one band was playing two different tunes. Maybe at another time in a different mood I might like it. Rok, I know your thoughts on later day Trane and Miles. Enjoy the music. |
I grew up in a time when a form of Jazz , big band + American
songbook vocals, was THE pop music of American Culture .
Seems to me biggest thing that happened was Audience died/is dying and young population was brainwashed by rock .
There are social psychologists who believe rock is a genre
that looks inward and thwarts community which is useful to a society where half the population is really not needed in any role other than consumer . |
Ambrose Akinmusire: Not noise at all. Had too much coherence to be noise. I didn't think the music was that much removed from later day Coltrane or Miles. I was not familiar with the group, so, google being my friend, I found this on the Blue Note Site: "Trumpeter Ambrose Akinmusire is a forward-thinking musician with a bent toward atmospheric post-bop". Sounds about right to me. I liked the clip you submitted. They didn't 'sample' A Love Supreme' did they?? I let the youtube run and this came up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNzE2nTCtxEThe problem I have with the newer stuff, is that it seems to be too introspective and / or esoteric. Greatly appreciated and understood by those in the know, but will never catch on with, or, be appreciated by the great unwashed. And to my ear, there is a sameness in overall effect to a lot of it. Of course it could just be me. Just out of touch. But I did remove a Kenny Dorham out of my cart, and replaced it with an Ambrose. Back in the day, Jazz Music was being created all over the country. NY, Chicago, Detroit, west coast(LA), New Orleans, St Louis and even Memphis and Kansas City etc....... Does the newer Jazz have that same reach, or is it mainly a NYC or two coast thing??? Cheers |
Jazzpeople a ?
I saw a late-right rerun on PBS last night Of the Lincoln Center Jazz Band and the sax player in front,a HUGE man about
a cheeseburger away from 400 lbs, played a solo about as beautifully as music can be played . Whats the guys name ?
I hear folks dissing Wynton, but anyone who doesn't think that a great band needs to check what they're smoking . |
There is a certain beauty and logic in the shape of jazz. By shape, I mean jazz in the historical sense; its evolution. We all have favorite eras in jazz and we have a tendency to declare one or the other "the best". Even acknowledging that there were certain eras (the 50's) when jazz seemed to be exploding with creativity, a tremendous number of classic records were recorded and one could even call it the music's "peak", this peak is determined and perceived not just by the music's worth and integrity, but also by how the music fits into the changing social climate. In a way, the evolution of jazz as a whole is like a great jazz solo (in any era): it often starts simply and builds and becomes more and more complex and far reaching. This rant was inspired by a recording that I heard yesterday of a group that reminded me of what I imagine my favorite (not necessarily what I consider the best) jazz group of all time, the Miles Davis Quintet from the 60's (Hancock,Shorter, Williams, Carter) might sound like today; a real band interacting and creating on a high level and not just a group of great musicians playing familiar material within a more traditional framework and a greater number of "rules". To the traditionalist some of this music may seem like noise (not!); in the context of the shape of jazz it's pretty amazing stuff and shows, once again, that jazz is alive and well. Thoughts? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZ5chS_by8 |
Great clips; thanks. Want to put in another plug for Phil Schaap on WKCR 89.9 FM and his unbelievable resprospectives on jazz artists. His "Bird Flight" programs are a must hear for any fan of this music; unbelievably interesting and thorough. Today he focused (with Bird as the backdrop) on how and why artists (especially singers) choose the material that they perform. Amazing stuff! Phil Schaap is a national treasure. You can check it out on line: http://tunein.com/radio/WKCR-FM-899-s30119/ |
|
|
Nancy Wilson:
Exquisite! My favorite, and my earliest remembrance of her is, 'Guess Who I Saw Today'. I did listen to that a billion times.
She seemed to have great synergy with Cannonball.
She has also aged very, very well.
Where B D OP?
Cheers |
Don't know that it's de rigeuer for trumpet ballad playing, but probably de rigeuer for that style of ballad from the American songbook regardless of interpreter. Exception being players like Coltrane who used very little vibrato in his ballad playing and who was getting away from that aesthetic. Perhaps O-10 has some thoughts about this. Brownie's ballads and your question brought this other clip to mind. For me, this is the perfect interpretation of this ballad . She absolutely kills me on this clip and I could listen to this one hundred times; and is she gorgeous or what? Like I said before, fireplace, nice wine, this record and....Nancy.....damn! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QBmrDS2Zhaw |
Brownie with strings:
Nice playing esp for the moments / moods you described.
Lots of vibrato. Is that De Rigueur for Trumpet Ballards?
Some sage once said, the only up-side to talented people dying young, was that we never had to see / hear their talent deteriorate. Brownie and all the rest will be frozen in time and perfection.
Nice Clip
Cheers |
I know you're not fond of the "with strings" thing, but I have always had a soft spot for this record. One of my very favorites and features what I think is some of the greatest trumpet playing on record and possibly the greatest ballad playing by a trumpet player ever. Fireplace, some nice wine, your honey, this record, and ..... https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLi8BquRmKA_n4umKPYQFIWlVzineIM9b2 |
Fabulous! Your comment re Clifford/Wynton is spot on. Boggles the mind to think what someone like him, or Bird, or Lee Morgan, or George Gershwin, or Otis Redding, or.... would have accomplished had they lived more than thirty five years or so. |
Aficionados: Betcha can't just listen to one track and stop there! Brown really knew his way around a Trumpet. His technique ranks right up there with Wynton, but I think he was a much better be-bop player than Wynton. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8lTZ7lQaykWhen you think of some people dying so young, it still makes you sad. Be sure to check out 'Blues walk' and 'Parisian Thoroughfare' Cheers |
Turrentine:
This is the type music that introduced me to Jazz. You could hear tunes like this and stuff like Cannonball's 'sack of woe' on the Juke box in Bars..
As they say, very 'accessible' which I always took to mean, it ain't Ornette.
Nice clip.
Cheers |
Ha! It just came to me. I knew the silly comment reminded me of something. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SKc4jipdqn4What a sound! One of my very favorite tenor players. Love the way he could say so much with just one sustained note and the shape and inflection of it. Funkiest tenor sound ever. |
Like hitting one's head against the wall; feels so good when we stop? 😅 |
Acman3:
Great clip! Loved it! The Pigs were great, but I didn't think the Wolf was THAT bad. Of course, I listened to 'Bitches Brew' yesterday, and it could be some sort of Jazz Post Traumatic stress thingy.
Thanks for posting.
Cheers |
Thank you Acman3 and Rok, very timely both. Humor is a good thing eventhough it goes over some folks' heads. You know, doctors say that it is very healthy to laugh; even when it is not sincere and one simply goes through the motions. O-10, I am befuddled and not sure where all your anger is coming from. Re Trane, I am reacting to your words. What, then, was the "overstatement" by you if not about having seen Trane live? Anyway, I am willing to move on and forget this idiotic exchange. As ususal, and as I recently said in one of the other threads where I "don't fit in": "Usually, the smeller's the feller" 😉 |
Quantum Mechanics allows for Something to come from Nothing. Sort of like this 'Ruckus".
Cheers |
|
Frogman when I saw "Trane" he was playing a "Soprano Sax" and this is what the group looked like. The nice part was the fact that it was in a small club and I was no more than 20 feet away from the group. As I recall "My Favorite Things" was over a half hour long, because "Trane" went off into his "private thing" to parts unknown. Now I ask you does that look like any kind of a "Sax"? No, it looks like a clarinet. Envy is eating you alive Frogman because you never saw Trane playing any kind of sax. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kPXw6YaCEYI didn't see Trane in some "monster auditorium" or huge place like this one, but in an intimate night club where I sat at a table with another couple, a professional drummer, and a beautiful sexy lady; it was the kind of setting you dream about. Since you like to check details, the name of the club was "Gino's" in St. Louis. You have been claiming to have heard Trane live since this thread's inception. Now we learn, as I always suspected, that it was, as you say, an "overstatement" (lie). Bottom line: wether he had heard Trane live or not, any true "aficionado" would have been able to tell it was not Trane in the video for a variety of reasons: alto not tenor, rhythm personell, electric guitar player (?!), video quality (way too modern); oh yeah, and a minor detail, the saxophone playing itself is clearly not Trane's. As far as your comment about being "hip", please don't embarrass yourself any more than you already have. Now you're saying my claim to have seen Trane was a lie. I can only say, "Peace be with you Frogman". |
O-10, you need to take a chill pill. The only place that I was "going" was an attempt at humor which you obviously misunderstood. Humor (parody) which you feel free to dole out and obviously can't take. I offer this explanation out of courtesy; courtesy which you don't deserve given your ridiculous and offensive reaction.
You have been claiming to have heard Trane live since this thread's inception. Now we learn, as I always suspected, that it was, as you say, an "overstatement" (lie). Bottom line: wether he had heard Trane live or not, any true "aficionado" would have been able to tell it was not Trane in the video for a variety of reasons: alto not tenor, rhythm personell, electric guitar player (?!), video quality (way too modern); oh yeah, and a minor detail, the saxophone playing itself is clearly not Trane's. As far as your comment about being "hip", please don't embarrass yourself any more than you already have.
I truly don't know where your tirade came from; it certainly was not deserved. I will simply assume that you got up on the wrong side of the bed or perhaps had too much to drink last night. I am sorry that my leaving your thread caused you distress; so, in spite of your hostility, I will be sure to not leave you to fend for yourself again. So, continue in your pursuit of trying to be hip (or should I say "boss"?); I wish you well.
Btw, the name is Elvin not Alvin as you have written several times. |
Frogman, you're the joke; if you had stayed on this thread, which is the only one where you fit, you would be "hip" enough to follow the inside joke without explanation; but you chose to bounce around. Now you're like the "prodigal son" discontent in any way you turn. Just keep turning and which way is best will come to you.
Don't forget to enjoy the music while you're turning.
|
Where are you going with this Frogman? If I saw Alvin Jones, McCoy Tyner, and Trane live, it would have been 100% impossible to make that mistake. The statement was an "Oversatement", so exactly where are you going with this? Since you knew it was an "overstatement", where are you going with this?
|
Phew! Parody. After mistaking Donald Harrison (on alto!) for Trane, you had me worried for a moment 😉 |
scat singing:
I do believe it was a case of the eyes overruling the ears. I remember Miss B.B. from my days in Atlanta, at the Peachtree Arts Theater. Luscious!!
The Music? The Frogman pretty much nailed it.
Cheers |
Currently, when you get past those two, from what I've been able to find, "quality music" is not that common in Africa. There seems to be a common thread running through music all over the globe; I attribute this to the PC. Right now I'm exploring France; this is most interesting, and it's uncommon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZx1Mrt-35kGet back to you when I find "Da bomb". Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I don't know whether or not you call "parody" a joke?
|
Honestly? Awful! Just about the worst thing I have heard posted on this thread. Sorry. If that was a joke, O-10, my apology. |
|
Manu Dibango: Sounded a little like 'Kool and The Gang'. In Africa, Once you get past Masekela and Ibrahim, quality Jazz is not that common. Nice dance hall stuff.
Donald Harrison: I think some folks can out Coltrane, Coltrane. And sometimes that's a good thing. Excellent clip.
Hey! where were the baseball caps??
Cheers |
O-10:
I think The Frogman is partial to sweet plantains, don't you?
Cheers |
