O-10, I do have "Jewels of Thought", but Kharma is one recording that I had on cassette, and was forced to get rid of due to lack of storage space.
It still bothers me, that I had to get rid of thousands of great titles on cassette. Should have got rid of a child instead :), in hindsight, but I do like to hunt down music in dark, dusty rooms, so maybe one day I will get them all back!
I am not the biggest fan of Leon, but thanks for bringing him up for discussion and listening.
Rok, I remember reading that" Bloodcount" was actually another song title written before Strayhorn was sick, before the history we were told , of it being composed by Strayhorn on his deathbed, but I like the history we were told.
Have to leave for work, so I don't have time to clean up that last paragraph.
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When I saw all these re-issued CD's by Leon Thomas, I thought I had struck a gold mine. I remembered that he had sung with Count Basie, but I thought he had left that behind for his "Avante Garde" mode, as Acman referred to it; that's all I wanted to hear. If I want to hear Joe Williams, I'll buy Joe williams. I think it would have been better if he had separated his different modes, conventional and yodeling, then both camps could be satisfied. I've got albums by Yusef Lateef and John Handy where they do the same thing; mix popular and unconventional music that I bought the album for. I recorded the unconventional, and forgot about the conventional, but that's half of the album wasted; which is what I'll do with Leon's albums. Speaking of Yusef Lateef I'll replace his scratchy records. He played some way out instruments like: bamboo flute, shanai, shofar, xun, arghul and koto, and is known for the blending of jazz with Eastern music. I don't think I have "The Blue Yusef" let's give it a listen. This cut is titled "Back Home", it's really kicking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPrOVvqIEBADoes anyone have an album by Yusef where he uses all or most of those unusual instruments? I would certainly like to give that one a listen. Enjoy the music. |
****Should / does the name and music have any relationship? Should a person be able to hear and follow the theme or subject indicated by the name?****
Should? Grandma used to tell me: "there are no "shoulds" in life". In seriousness, should the name of the music....? Probably not, although I think it's much better when it does and I think the best tunes do.
Does? Often it does. 1. Sometimes it's obvious and the music follows, as you say, the theme indicated by the name. 2. Other times it's a very "inside" relationship that only the composer of the tune is privy to; and, may want to keep it that way. 3. Sometimes there's no relationship whatsoever and the title is random or may relate to a person or event without the music itself relating to that person or event; I think this is the exception.
1. Obvious:
- "Take Five". The tune is in 5/4; five beats to the measure.
- "Watermelon Man". HEEEEEEEEEY WATERMELON MAN
- "So What". Eight note bass lick followed by the two note motif by the horns: SO WHAT!
- "Ceora". First three notes of the tune are clearly deliniating the three syllables of the title.
- "Take The A Train". YOU, MUST TAKE THE A TRAIN
- "Salt Peanuts". SALT PEANUTS, SALT PEANUTS
2. Inside
Well, if it weren't an inside thing we would know, right?
3.
- "Ornithology". No clues in the music itself, but since the word means the study of birds.....duh! "Bird", get it?
- "Bitches Brew". Couldn't imagine the connection.
- "Billy's Bounce". Obviously relates to Billy (?), but I don't hear it in the music itself
Often, a composer has an experience or sees somehting that has some kind of impact as in the case of "Watermelon Man". I heard Herbie Hancock describe that very process in how he wrote the tune; he saw a man selling watermelons. Fewer times the composer writes a tune and then "looks" for a title that he feels somehow relates or chooses to leave the choice of title completely random.
BTW, I think your overall assessment of Thomas is spot on. |
I don't know which CD this is on but I intend to acquire it. Acman do you have this on record? This is exactly what I'm looking for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwKbI2Y7lCcWe have too much to choose from. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I don't know why artists put conventional and Avant Garde on the same album. Either a person wants to hear one or the other, but not both. So far I've ordered two CD's, and one of them is under Pharoah Sanders.
"Leon The Blues Band", seems to be for you, it's got Joe Williams tunes.
I've ordered "Kharma" plus "Spirits known and Unknown"; while that last CD only has two cuts that are for me, it's still a no lose situation because I like the outfit the home boy is wearing.
Enjoy the music.
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Leon Thomas:
Some nice unique tunes, but can he sustain / carry an entire CD? I don't think so. The Viet Nam tune was just silly. Sort of ruined the entire record.
I tend to buy music based on the entire CD. I have had my fill of buying a CD just to hear one song. I know they can't all be like 'Thriller', but I like to get as close as I can.
The Frogman's Theorem still holds.
Cheers |
Today's Listen: Charles Mingus -- CHANGES ONE The first track is the clip I have posted. " Remember Rockefeller at Attica" This refers to the bloody prison riot that took place while Rockefeller was Governor of NY. This tune sounds very upbeat to me. Esp Don Pullen on piano. I read the liner notes, and find out that the tune's original name was changed, by Mingus, to 'Remember Rockefeller at Attica'. The name was changed, but not the music. He said he wanted people to remember the incident. WTF!!! Which got me to thinking about how Jazz tunes are named. Should / does the name and music have any relationship? Should a person be able to hear and follow the theme or subject indicated by the name? Of course, most are self-explanatory, or obvious, esp the standards and tunes from Broadway or pop music. etc...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM6vIURo5OIPerhaps The Frogman can enlighten us. Or me. I am sure everyone else knows this. Cheers |
Frogman, you are right.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, "Kharma" is the first one of these records I'm going to replace. I've got two stacks of records for Goodwill. No, they are not good enough for any "Audiophile" so out they go.
Enjoy the music.
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I made a mistake on my first post, this is Leon in Berlin
Leon in Berlin
Hide Credits
A1 Straight No Chaser
Composed By – Thelonious Monk
6:32
A2 Pharoah's Tune (The Journey) 9:10
A3 Echoes 6:00
B1 Umbo Weti 9:20
B2 The Creator Has A Master Plan (Peace) 8:43
B3 Oo-Wee! Hindewe 1:07
Spirits Known and Unknown
Disc: 1
1. The Creator Has A Master Plan (Peace)
2. One
3. Echoes
4. Song For My Father
5. Damn Nam (Aint Goin To Vietnam)
6. Malcolms Gone
7. Let The Rain Fall On Me
8. Um Um Um
9. A Night In Tunisia
10. Take The A Train (Alt Take)
11. Take The A Train (Alt Take)
12. Take The A Train (Master Tape)
13. Walkin (Alt Take)
14. Walkin (Master Take)
15. Willow Weep For Me (Alt Take)
16. Willow Weep For Me (Master Take)
17. If It Didnt Hurt So Much (Alt Take)
18. If It Didnt Hurt So Much (Master Take)
THE LEON THOMAS ALBUM
Track Listing
Title/Composer Performer Time
1
Come Along
Leon Thomas
2
I Am
Leon Thomas
3
Bag's Groove
Leon Thomas
4
Um, Um, Um
Leon Thomas
5
Pharoah's Tune (The Journey)
Leon Thomas
There are so many newly imported CD's that you have to choose carefully in order not to repeat.
Enjoy the music.
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Yo Rok, I'm gathering the tracks so we can choose LEON IN BERLIN 01 Preview Shape Your Mind To Die 02 Preview Just In Time To See The Sun 03 Preview It's My Life I'm Fighting For 04 Preview The Creator Has A Master Plan 05 Preview Let The Rain Fall On Me 06 Preview China Doll 07 Preview Bag's Groove 08 Preview One 09 Preview Come Along 10 Preview Let's Go Down To Lucy's 11 Preview Welcome To New York 12 Preview Love Each Other 13 Preview Balance Of Life (Peace Of Mind) 14 Preview Um Um Um 15 Preview Umbo Weti - See more at: http://acerecords.co.uk/the-creator-1969-1973-the-best-of-the-flying-dutchman-masters#sthash.fvQxpmH...BLUES AND THE SOULFUL TRUTH Track Listing Sample Title/Composer Performer Time Stream 1 Let's Go Down to Lucy Alfred Ellis / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 4:27 SpotifyAmazon 2 L-O-V-E Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 2:54 SpotifyAmazon 3 Gypsy Queen Gabor Szabo / George David Weiss Leon Thomas 10:19 SpotifyAmazon 4 Love Each Other Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 3:16 Spotify 5 Shape Your Mind to Die Neal Creque / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 5:22 SpotifyAmazon 6 Boom-Boom-Boom John Lee Hooker Leon Thomas FULL CIRCLE Sweet Little Angel 4:59 Just In Time To See The Sun 2:58 It's My Life I'm Fighting For 10:10 Never Let Me Go 2:58 I Wanna Be Where You Are 4:22 Got To Be There 4:27 Balance Of Life (Peace Of Mind) 7:02 You Are The Sunshine Of My Life 5:47 What Are We Gonna Do? Title/Composer Performer Time 1 Prince of Peace Pharoah Sanders Leon Thomas 8:47 2 The Creator Has a Master Plan (Peace) Pharoah Sanders / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 4:24 3 Song for My Father Horace Silver Leon Thomas 5:18 4 Bag's Groove Milt Jackson Leon Thomas 3:17 5 C.C. Rider Traditional Leon Thomas 6:20 6 China Doll Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 5:04 7 Just in Time to See the Sun Michael Shrieve 8 Shape Your Mind to Die Neal Creque / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 5:15 9 It's My Life I'm Fighting For Neal Creque Leon Thomas 10:03 10 Balance of Life (Peace of Mind) Neal Creque / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 6:52 11 Little Sunflower Freddie Hubbard / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 6:40 12 Sun Song Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 6:03 blue highlight denotes track pick 4:52 Spotify 7 China Doll Alfred Ellis / Jesse Kilpatrick / Leon Thomas Leon Thomas 5:07 Spotify 8 C.C. Rider LEON THE BLUES BAND 1 Every Year I Get the Blues Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 2 Shake, Rattle & Roll Charles E. Calhoun Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 3 Every Day I Have the Blues Memphis Slim Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 4 School Girl Blues Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 5 Flip Flop and Fly Chuck Calhoun / Lou Willie Turner Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 6 Duke's Place Duke Ellington / Bob Katz / Bob Thiele Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 7 Blues Is the Blues Is the Blues Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas 8 Next Time You See Me Leon Thomas Blues Band feat: Leon Thomas KHARMA (This is the same as Pharoah's CD) Track listing[edit] "The Creator Has a Master Plan" (Sanders, Thomas) (32:46) "Colors" (Sanders, Thomas) (5:37) Enjoy the music |
I have to run an errand now. When I return, I would like to ask The Frogman a question about the names of, and the process that goes into, naming Jazz tunes.
Later |
Jafant, you may remember this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t88stnbP0g I too like Mr.Thomas in his Avant Garde mode than conventional, and only in small doses, unless heavily medicated, but Pharoah Sanders is good in most all situations. |
O-10, in your haste to disagree with me you miss the fact that we are, in fact, in agreement about "Blood Count"; and "The Peacocks", for that matter. You found it dreary; I can understand that. I, don't mind "dreary" and appreciate the artistry, dreariness and all. And speaking of "relevance", what is the relevance of the comment about the "study" of jazz to the subjects at hand? I was I see none. Ohnwy61, in a rather clever turn, reminded us about a prior conversation here about "Bloodcount" and the tune was resurrected. The relevance of his opinion or mine (again, same as yours) is no more and no less than, say, the many comments by you about which version of a given tune is the "best"; as you have expressed many times.
Now, is it really that hard to see how and why these discussions turn unnecessarily negative? Don't you think it's time to stop the bullshit? There can be strong opinions and vehement disagreement; but, as I have said before, let's try and thicken our skins and avoid the silly and provocative innuendo, sarcasm, and silly tit-for-tat, I think the thread would benefit greatly. |
Leon:
On the Basie clip he had me wishing for Joe Williams.
Cheers |
Leon Thomas and Count Basie go way back. Even before that, he was a high school heart throb. His bio is incomplete, because I remember something interrupting his stay with Basie, and he would have made some real money had he continued; I think he got drafted; but I'm not sure, but he didn't get fired.
I prefer the yodeling as to him singing like Joe Williams. Somehow I've got an album that's half and half, and I don't like the half with him just singing in the conventional manner. I think his originality was what set him apart from everyone else, and he should have stuck with it.
Rok, I'm going to avoid anything conventional by Leon Thomas.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I listened to what you posted 3 times, and I told you it was "dreary" and I didn't like it.
Whether Stan Getz made it a signature tune or not, I liked the one by "Duke Ellington" the best.
I do not study jazz, anyone who wants to "study" jazz can take a course at a college, or just read Frogman's posts.
Im not sure I get the relevance of your and Ohnwy61's opinions, but we're all entitled to one. I hope you will permit me to disagree.
Enjoy the music.
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Well, a "signature" tune is simply a tune that an artist performs in almost every engagement and is readily identified with; nothing more, nothing less. I am just as sure that Strayhorn (and Hodges) would be flattered that a great player like Getz would "appropriate" his composition; just as I am sure that Getz meant to disrespect to the supremacy (imo) of Hodges's performance. All of our personal indignation is really pointless in this case. See, Rok, as in the first time this came up, we do agree sometimes. I simply prefer to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty. |
BTW, both clips were awesome. I will have to play the CD toady.
Cheers |
*****
differing opinions about whether it was Johnny Hodges, for whom the tune was written, or Stan Getz, who made it a kind of "signature" tune, that did the tune justice.******
Anyone who cares to read the history of 'Blood Count', the conditions under which it was written, the relationship between Strayhorn, Ellington, Hodges and the band, would know that the question itself is absurd.
How could anyone consider this to be a 'signature' tune of anyone, except Strayhorn, the Ellington band and Hodges? How could anyone possibly do it more 'justice'.
Of course, I realize questions like this are always considered valid, in some circles.
Cheers |
Schubert, sorry to hear about your terrible experience. I hope that somehow you are made whole by the Agon system or by some other means. As others have said, I hope you reconsider your involvement here. Your opinions on the music are valued and they show a level of discernment and appreciation that is refreshing. I particularly appreciate how your expertise in your preferred genre informs other genres of interest; as it should be since, at their most basic levels, the similarities are greater than the differences.
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A few recent topics, Johnny Hodges’ immediately recognizable (should be) sound and style, Stan Getz, and music that evokes an emotion other than "happy" beg a revisit of what is, along with "The Peacocks", one of the most evocative melodies ever written. Ohnwy61 reminded us of the differing opinions about whether it was Johnny Hodges, for whom the tune was written, or Stan Getz, who made it a kind of "signature" tune, that did the tune justice. Gorgeous melody written by Billy Strayhorn while literally on his death bed: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-N7WoBI5ABkhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ckls62nZHw |
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Nope, have not heard of him??? |
Leon Thomas is a blast from the past for me. He was a fairly popular singer in the early 80s. He recorded and album with Cedar Walton ("Soundscapes") which I stilln own which got quite a bit of air play at a local jazz radio station in Miami during that time. He is also known for his stint with Basie's band and stints with some of the avant gard musicians of the time. Interesting singer with that quirky yodeling thing of his. |
Rok, try Pharoah and Leon on Amazon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwKbI2Y7lCcWhen you see a picture of Pharoah with black hair, instead of gray, there is a possibility that Leon is with him. If you find Pharoah cheap used, I'll buy, with or without Leon; I'm tired of these old scratchy records. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, very expensive counts me out. Look for cheap used Pharoah Sanders, I'll let you know which one's Leon is on, plus that's his best music.
Since both him and Miles are from St. Louis, their tailor shouldn't be to far from me. Whenever I decide to get that fashionable, I'll look him up. Leon is more ancient Egypt, maybe that's why he's playing with Pharoah.
Enjoy the music.
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Well, gee, O-10, thank you for the kind words. Now, what is it they say? Oh, yes: "the smeller's the feller" 😝
But a sincere thank you for the explanation. Personally, I love rainy, foggy days; looking through my window (stereo) that is. |
:@jafant Who is Leon? SURELY YOU JEST!! You're joking, right? Can it be that in the year 2016, there are still people who don't know who Leon is? Why, he is the most Famous Jazz player in the world, that no one has ever heard of!! This be him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSYwGEiowHgCheers |
rok-
I must ask, whom is "LEON" ? |
*****
Rok, I'm on a search for Leon on CD*****
A lot of them on Amazon. They are pretty proud of them, i.e. they are very expensive. You did notice he is dressed like Sinbad, and is also from St Louis. Remember Miles?
Cheers |
Frogman, I hope you don't think I said I didn't like "The Peacocks" simply because you posted it. You're getting kinda weird lately. If you think that, it's what I mean by "kinda weird".
The Peacocks was dreary, like a foggy, drizzly, rainy day, and I didn't like it. Does that explanation pass muster?
Enjoy the music.
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Schubert, hope you would not mind me giving you an advice, but if you can calm down and join later, I personally would be glad to hear (read) from you again. If not for anything else, than for a sake of contributing to such a diverse companionship here. You must admit that there are some good words and music shared and your posts were for sure appriciated. |
Much Thanks! Schubert-
for telling your story. It is imperative that we share all experiences here, positive & negative, for the rest of us. Sadly, eBay is just as bad, as every moron and I do mean moron, it is laden w/ really poor sellers.
Take Care, |
Pharoah Sanders is always great! |
Rok, I'm on a search for Leon on CD, and I see that he's available under Pharoah Sanders. He's cheaper going that route than just looking for Leon. If you plan on adding him to your collection, the 2fer is cheaper. A little help from my friend wouldn't hurt. I'll get back after my search.
Enjoy the music.
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****when did Frogmam become the Bible?****
No, no! It's not me that invokes God. Sorry, couldn't resist 😇
Bolton, "good as the best"? Good as Clifford, Miles, Hubbard et al? Not a chance in hell. Oops, did it again....well, maybe that was ok 😈
In very very rare cases are these guys as good as the best. I think we are inadvertently touching upon the problem here; at least a big part of it. Did someone say narrow scope?
C'mon Rok, stick to your guns, I'm sure O-10 will eventually forgive you. |
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*****Rok, he can certainly play the piano, and I like the music; I just can't figure why this comes under the heading "JAZZ"? ******
Exactly!! I like it, but is it Jazz? Maybe it's called Jazz for the "Coolness" factor?
That's what Pope Wynton would say.
Cheers |
Rok, he can certainly play the piano, and I like the music; I just can't figure why this comes under the heading "JAZZ"?
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You would be surprised, or maybe not, at the number of current Jazz guys that started off in Classical. I wonder why they change? Maybe they think it's easier. Maybe Wynton is correct.
Cheers |
Maybe you were confused because The Frogman did post his 7 commandments. I was glad he stopped at Seven, because The Good Lord himself only posted 10
Cheers. |
Rok, the rest of the world must be classical musicians in jazz clothing. Why don't we ask an honest to goodness Classical musician, like Learsfool, what he thinks, and we will be able to ascertain with certainty, as to why they have gone "Ga Ga" over Keith Jarret.
I must admit he sounds better when I put on my smoking jacket and light a pipe.
(if only he would quit making those God-awful sounds)
Enjoy the music.
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The Gospel According to The Frogman? King Frogman Version?
BTW, you and The Frogman have this bad habit of reading things that aren't there. No one would argue with anything you said in your post. Saint Frogman just said, there is usually a good reason they are lesser known. You just listed a lot of them. Most folks on here speak good English. They are capable of saying exactly what they mean.
Cheers |
Rok, since when did Frogman become the Bible; "Frogman said the lesser known are lesser known for a good reason". While that statement in it self is gospel truth, there is the inference that they are not as good. Alex presented a guy on trumpet that according to what I heard was as good as anybody I've ever heard. I never heard of the guy because he had a drug problem and had very, very little recorded. (I never use two "very's" in the same sentence, but this time it was called for). Maybe the guy didn't live long enough, that's another good reason. Maybe his best music wasn't even recorded. In all cases, there is a good reason why the lesser known are lesser known, but the fact that they are not as good, may not be one of them.
Alex, you've done a marvelous job of bringing lesser known players to my attention, please continue.
Enjoy the music.
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Today's Listen: Keith Jarrett -- THE KOLN CONCERT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKNQSSNNag8I, along with the rest of the Jazz world went ga-ga over this when it came out. listening today, does anyone know what all the fuss was about? Cheers |
*****
We have already covered the very best jazz musicians who ever lived, we have also covered the best "jazz albums"; now, with some help, I'm going to cover the lesser known artists; some who might have been as good as the best. *****
We have not even talked about all the CDs that I own, let along the entire genre.
The lesser known, as The Frogman said, are generally lesser known for a good reason. Are you sure you are not confusing lesser known with local?
Cheers |
