Rok, in regard to your nuts and bolts, take them back to the hardware store. In regard to my knowledge and opinion of jazz music, it has been validated over the years. If you go back through the posts, you will discover that my taste in music is preferred over Frogman's.
In regard to the nuts and bolts, those who regard such in their "jazz" music, make it quite clear, because some of their preferences sound like it.
Let me give yall something else to knock, I do not recall one written musical sheet of paper any where near my "imaginary jazz musician".
If this isn't enough, I got more.
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O-10:
Could it be that you are just adverse to the "Nut & Bolts". of music.
Cheers |
*****
I can only speak for myself, but for example, when I hear somebody praisng Keith Jarret, without knowing the work of Evans, than I am sceptical about his musical taste and his knowledge in general.*****
This statement requires explanation. Please.
Cheers |
*****
I DON'T GIVE A HOOT NOR HANG ABOUT LEARNING ONE WRITTEN NOTE, IS THAT CLEAR?******
We get it! We get it! We got it a long time ago!!!! You talk about music at length. You express likes and dislikes. You talk about how the music moves you. Given all that, the way you say what you are trying to say seems just a little incredulous.
Maybe "I am not interested in the Academic side of music, or music theory, or the history music" would be better.
Because your all-caps statements don't seem to jive with a person that calls himself a Jazz Aficionado.
Cheers |
Alex, in regard to that movie, I haven't seen it BUT I will. Even if you were an American citizen, you are not supposed to talk about fraud that insinuates the government is involved.
In regard to "jazz" you must be confusing me with Rok, I have no problem with anyone's opinion about the music.
Their problem is they seem to think I should learn something about music, and my reply is
I DON'T GIVE A HOOT NOR HANG ABOUT LEARNING ONE WRITTEN NOTE, IS THAT CLEAR?
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Orpheus, have you watched this movie? It certainly explains a lot of things behind some aspects of US economy. It is a not an action movie, in fact the trailer is not true to a real tempo of the film, which is very slow, patient, and the caracters are all in service of the story (or better understanding of it) https://youtu.be/LWr8hbUkG9sHowever, as it is a story about US economy, I am not sure am I allowed to comment on that, since I am European? As to your perception,nobody is saying that it is 'false', when you talk about work of some late masters, its just that you are fixed on one period and couple of styles, which is perfectly all right. (like I said, that is my favourite music as well) But in the same time, it seems to me that you refusing to except that any other music that was made later in time has an equal right to be called 'jazz' Now we are coming to a 'problematic' part. When you are asked to explain which elements of music are best describing the 'jazz' that you like, or what it is the thing that it makes you like it, you simply refer to it as a 'soul'. On the oher hand, the music that you dont like you simply call 'intellectual' or 'soulless' without further analysis of elements of its 'lackings' There is no need for so many harsh words, I guess Frog.or Leafr. could simply ignored some of the coments written here and continue to write about their favourite music. I can only speak for myself, but for example, when I hear somebody praisng Keith Jarret, without knowing the work of Evans, than I am sceptical about his musical taste and his knowledge in general. But, as we all have seen, Frogman is quite good in recognising the good music from the past (aldo he dont like some of my 'forgotten' ones) and somehow I am more inclined to trust him or his taste about some contemporary music after that. The fact that I still may not like that music does not mean that that music is not good, it is quite possible that I am not 'there' yet. I am sure that we all can agree that our music taste has changed during time. So, whats the problem? |
Let's explore the music of Ry Cooder; he's all over the place, no matter what your groove is Ry Cooder's got it. Imagine waking up at three in the morning to find yourself in a landscape with city streets and no houses as far as the eye could see, with nothing but the light of the silvery moon. This is the music that would fit such a setting. // www.youtube.com/watch?v=050TIMlpmL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOkXrd6eRRw0Like I said, no matter where you want to go, Ry Cooder can take you there. Enjoy the music. |
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Learsfool, ARC has engineers to design their amps and pre-amps. After the engineers have finished, they have 'audiophiles' to fine tune them. There is nothing "objective" about what these audiophiles are doing, it is all subjective. Any thing that is objective can be measured; how would you measure the beauty of Mary Lou Williams music?
I measure it by my senses. Whether or not anyone else agrees with my measurements is totally moot. How do I measure the soul in the tune "Blue Funk" by Milt Jackson and Ray Charles; that tune has so much soul that it's incomprehensible. In order to capture the nuance completely, a 45 RPM disc and a high end analog rig with tube amplification is required. How do I know this, you might ask; I know it through my subjective senses that are in harmony with others who have the same senses.
How do I know my subjective senses are accurate? By a comparison with many others whose same subjective senses have been acknowledged. "Moanin" by Bobby Timmons is another tune with a high degree of "soul", how do I know this? Because Bobby Timmons music speaks to the soul; not just my soul, but to the soul of multitudes. His music conveys messages without words; it projects emotions that people who don't even speak the same language recieve.
In regard to those who think my perceptions are false, I don't ask them to listen to or believe my perceptions; why should it matter if my perceptions are false to them. Who is the absolute judge of perceptions, and who judges their perceptions?
Enjoy the music.
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Hi O-10 - your post today about subjectivity and objectivity was interesting. Most of it is fine as far as it goes. However, as Frogman has pointed out several times, there is much more about music that is indeed objective than you think. It requires knowledge of music to be able to determine which is which. And since you state that you have no knowledge of music and do not want any, doesn't this mean that your point of view is neither objective or subjective, but simply un-informed? Even subjectivity assumes knowledge of the subject. You seem to imply that your un-informed point of view has equal value to an informed one. While this may be true for you, I don't see how it could possibly be true for anyone else, and that is the problem. You also imply that this situation is unchangeable, which it is clearly not. Again, that is up to you. Please do not take this personally - I am genuinely interested in trying to bridge the disconnect here. I am not at all implying that you are not capable of understanding - I know you are if you wanted to. But if you really don't want to, then it seems to me that you really shouldn't complain about your "detractors" who insist on correcting false statements/perceptions. |
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Rok you were "property" of the US government, you could have gotten court-martial for getting frost bite in Alaska. You were not paid to think; but that's the way all military's have functioned since time began.*****
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
I was not 'property'
MY career would have been if jeopardy if one of my soldiers had suffered from frost bite.
I was paid to think.
BTW, if you were a real estate agent, you guys were the problem. Not the Fed.
Cheers
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See type number Two. :) Fits your clients to a T.
Cheers |
Rok you were "property" of the US government, you could have gotten court-martial for getting frost bite in Alaska. You were not paid to think; but that's the way all military's have functioned since time began.
It's good to get off subject occasionally. If you notice, none of the wire worshipers but in.
Enjoy the music.
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"Not only off subject, but dead wrong. The interest rate on
fixed rated" mortgages never changes. Your monthly mortgage payment will remain constant for the life of the loan. Some people pay their property tax monthly with their mortgage as one payment. An increase in property tax can result in an increase in your monthly payment, but that's due to tax increases not interest rates."
THE SKY IS BLUE, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
Those people were encouraged to take out those loans by their political representatives, who they trusted and believed in. Those loans were presented as the thing to do. If what you are saying is don't believe your government, you got that right.
I sold real estate, and I would not have gotten one of those loans for my worst enemy. I worked for my clients, some of who were not the swiftest, that's why they came to me; I was suppose to lead them.
It's not the house, but the house payment; you're using the same exact language "They Used". What language was everybody using before those people signed the papers?
Why did Ben Bernanke raise the interest rate? He said inflation. Was that a period of inflation when we had high unemployment?
I had a dummy over to my house, whose house is paid for, he was telling me the kind of loan he got and how smart he was. The dummy forgot I negotiated the special low rate loan he got, and I had to bring loans to that company in order to get his loan.
"They bought houses they could not afford". They agreed to payments they could make when they signed the papers. I'm not talking about one individual, but a mass of individuals who were encouraged to take out these loans, and shady fast talking real estate agents who encouraged them.
Can you answer the question as to why Ben Bernanke raised the interest rate? If it was the right thing to do, why did he say it was a mistake? can you answer those two questions; if not, the case is closed.
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*****
I know this is completely off subject, but I do that occasionally.****
Not only off subject, but dead wrong. The interest rate on "
fixed rated" mortgages never changes. Your monthly mortgage payment will remain constant for the life of the loan. Some people pay their property tax monthly with their mortgage as one payment. An increase in property tax can result in an increase in your monthly payment, but that's due to tax increases not interest rates.
If you have a 'variable rate' or a mortgage with a Balloon a payment, it can increase. But all of this is explained when you sign the loan. Don't blame the Fed. There should not be any surprises here.
Basic problem: There are two types of people in the world.
(1) People who think if it's possible for something to go wrong or bad, it will.
(2) People that always think everything be all right. The best possible outcome will always be THE outcome. They go through life just a wishing and a hoping. They also think that everyone in the world should look out for them, and their best interest.
I am of the first type. Folks who took out mortgages on houses they could not afford are of the second type.
As the folks in the military always say, don't make plans based on what the enemy might do, plan according to what he has the capability to do.
Cheers |
Rok, what was the truth yesterday, is a big fat lie today. I don't know if you've ever watched "Charley Chan", but I'm a Charley Chan fan, and I think about how all the different departments functioned like they were supposed to; now everything functions according to "money", and people do as they are told and not according to the purpose for which they were hired.
For example: raising interest rates was the very worst thing a person could do when unemployment was high, plus a lot of people had those loans where their payments went up if the interest rate went up. Those people lost their homes when they couldn't pay, because their house payments went a lot higher than they agreed on.
"They said", meaning they who say whatever they are told to say; they said those people tried to buy more house than they could pay for; but the truth is those people agreed to payments they could make; say a thousand dollars a month, but when the payment went to two thousand a month, they couldn't pay, and were foreclosed on.
A high school graduate in economics would have known not to raise the interest rate, why didn't Ben Bernanke Know not to raise the rate? He's stated that raising the rate was a mistake. What good does that do all those homeless people? Is knowing how to install a cartridge more important than paying attention to what's going on in Washington?
I know this is completely off subject, but I do that occasionally.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, that was very good. I didn't see anything "objective" from the writers point of view. From a music teacher's or musicians point of view, there is a lot that's objective, but since I'm neither one of them, my point of view is purely "subjective", and there is no way I can put it any other way.
One of my detractors stated that my post's are more about my perceptions and opinions, than the music it self. Should my post's be about his perceptions and opinions?
"Sharing an opinion with others can be a fine thing, but confusing your opinion, and/or valuation, of the music itself, or even a specific performance, with something absolute, is too god like for me to want to endure. Nothing new here. I said as much 3 years ago."
The above is what one of my detractors wrote. He states that I have confused my opinions as something absolute. Only a person with an "objective" point of view does this, it is my detractor who is confused.
Enjoy the music.
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Sartre:
Had to read this guy in college. Back then I thought he was full of crap. But now, I know he is full of crap and himself. Europeans should not try to write about things they don't understand. (Jazz)
Cheers |
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O-10's invisible and nonexistent friend:
Have you guys seen the Jimmy Stewart movie 'Harvey'.
Cheers |
*****
here she is with Wendy Gordon having fun.*****
My immediate impression also. Fun, that's what Jazz is suppose to be like, and was, before everyone got 'angry' and / or 'intellectual'.
Very nice clip.
Cheers
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Wow, Rok, you have asked quite a deep question there. I would say the impetus comes from the human spirit - mankind's constant need to explore/experiment. Obviously this is somewhat related to the advance of technology, too, though that is only part of it. Composers today are still trying to come up with new sounds, and many of the innovations of the past came from composers. Most of them would have come from the players of the instruments, though - they certainly do today. |
O-10, is the reason you do not want to name your friend because he was a substance abuser, and this shortened his life/career? If so, why? I don't think any serious listener's opinion of his playing is going to change because of that knowledge (certainly no serious musician's would!). If you have talked about this before, I'm sorry I do not recall it. If this is the only reason you are holding back, I would say that you do not need to worry about that. |
I guess you guys are tired of my stories by now; I've still got a few, but I'm absolutely not going to mention any names if their careers were shortened by substance abuse. Jeanne Trevor is a name I can mention. I remember when she was a stone fox; she's in 'semi retirement' now and performs at our church sometime. I've got her bio here. http://www.allmusic.com/artist/jeanne-trevor-mn0000814358You can check it out, I remember when she performed at a most elegant establishment on Lindel Blvd., that's one of the ritziest streets in St. Louis. She wasn't recording when she was singing there, so I just discovered; that was a big mistake. She sang "torchy jazz songs" when I saw her; she was quite a fox then. Here she is at a concert in 2013. The best thing about Ms. Trevor is the fact that she's enjoying life; here she is with Wendy Gordon having fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJK52t2k60Enjoy the music. |
Big mistake, I thought Fred Jackson played the organ, but it was "Earl Van Dyke" on Organ. Since organ is the subject, that's good enough. |
Alex, I'm going to almost clear things up; if such a person existed, his style would have been similar to Fred Jackson's, but that was before he lived in my apartment. The music he played when he lived in my apartment was so advanced from that music, and none of it was recorded.
Acman3's statement is Gospel truth.
The bottom line is; I can not prove the music he was playing during the time he was living in my apartment. My detractors might say, "You can't believe anything he say's". That's fine because I always provide links, no one has to believe anything I say; however, "The mystery jazzman did not practice for one single solitary day, nor did he give any inclination that he wanted to".
Acman, I believe you know who the person that does not exist is, keep it to yourself, and maintain what I told you.
Irony of ironies, when I turned on my rig, (my play list is so long that it plays continuously) the "Mystery jazzman" was playing as a sideman. That concludes this story forever.
Enjoy the music.
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Learsfool:
Speaking of musical instruments. Where does / did the impetus for creating or developing new musical instruments come from?
Cheers |
Alex, if O-10 said he has been lying about his adventures with the mystery jazzman for 3 years, I for one believe him. ;)
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Well, its quite posssible that Orpheus had more than one friend whose music we have listened. If its organist, I think I know who he is and I am not sure if its polite for me to say? Anyway, this guy played with him ( with that organist) on one album and than got the chance to record his own album as a leader, made two, but did not became famous. Here is the link...Fred Jackson 'Hootin and Tootin'... https://youtu.be/eZKR_d7gHMUhttps://youtu.be/8khR_oqp0Oohttps://youtu.be/dS0mnaLAus8 |
*****
actually, the horn is quite a bit more "nimble" than the trombone. *****
I stand corrected. Why do I have this strange feeling someone is smiling in NYC.
Learsfool, Thanks for info.
Cheers |
Excellent Jazz discussions here guys. I am happy that you guys are back on track! Happy Listening! |
Hi Acman - I just saw your post about your guess on O-10's friend, don't know why I missed it last night. An organist is a fascinating guess, as it would immediately provide a very good reason why O-10 would have never heard him practice in his apartment - he couldn't have if he was an organist! But my impression has been that O-10 is implying that his friend could have practiced in his apartment if he had wanted to. In fact, I even thought that O-10 once mentioned that his friend was a saxophonist, though apparently I am not remembering that right, and even the instrument is a mystery. I notice he hasn't had any comment on your guess. |
Hi Rok - actually, the horn is quite a bit more "nimble" than the trombone. The trombone's slide makes it awkward to play things that are very fast, for instance. The horn has the advantage of the valves, like the trumpet. Even the tuba is technically more "nimble" than the trombone, again because of the valves. However, you are correct when you say that the basic tone of the trombone is more suited to jazz in general than the horn is. And in many jazz styles, the slide is an advantage. Although technically the tenor trombone's range is almost the same as the horn's, in actual practice the horn usually covers quite a bit larger range, and on a smaller mouthpiece, too. This is the reason the horn is considered the most difficult of the brass instruments, and one of the most difficult overall - we have to cover the largest range on the smallest mouthpiece, which means we are using less surface area, and therefore taxing the muscles of the embouchure more.
Getting back to the horn in jazz, you normally see it in big bands, not as a solo instrument. I have occasionally performed with a big band, though mostly that was when I was still a student. There are often big band shows on our pops series, though, I would say at least a couple a season - in fact we have one coming up in a couple of weeks that is mostly the music of Louis Armstrong, I think. I have only given the music a glance so far, as we have a much harder (and brutal on the face) symphonic program to get through this coming week first. Though that Louis Armstrong show looks like it may be pretty brutal, too.
Anyway, there have been a few famous jazz hornists over the years, and there are actually quite a few active right now, maybe more than there have ever been. |
I keep wandering why I'm so late discovering Mary Lou Williams? She's such a talent, that it seems impossible; especially when I think of all the non talented people who've been shoved in my face, and all the lousy records I have in my collection.
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Too late. I Have had it for years. I think Solo and Cookery are two of her best. Esp when you consider the quality of the recordings.
Cheers |
Rok, if you haven't ordered yet, I would put "My Mama Pinned a Rose On Me" at the bottom of the list. Not that it's bad, I just think the others are better. |
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I don't see "Live at the cookery" available. I'm going to get the DVD on Montreaux, that should have the same music. I've got "My Mama Pinned a Rose On Me", no filler. Now I'm going to look at everything that's available to avoid duplication, sometime there is a lot of duplication when various CD's are available, I hate that.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. |
BTW, stay with Rene Marie at least to around 2:47. You will be surprised.
Cheers |
Alex, Nice cut! I cheated and looked up the trumpet player, but should have known. |
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Rok, each time one of Mary Lou's fingers strike a key, not just a note, but music comes out of the piano. I consider myself blessed to have the ability to appreciate such music. I'm going to acquire whatever is available that I don't have.
Enjoy the music.
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BTW. for anyone in need of computer speakers to listen to all these clips; I just received the Logitech Z623 set. Even better than my old Logitech Z2300. Recommended.
Cheers |
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TY- orpheus10
WWOZ has an on-line playlist as well. |
It ain't necessarily So:
Williams by a TKO. The big band sort of took away from the performance by Miles.
Cheers |
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Rok, I've been comparing "Mary Lou Williams" to "Bird". Not to "Bird" personally but to his era and beyond. One of the reasons I'm doing this is because I was so late in discovering Mary Lou. Since she came from the swing era, I assumed her music would reflect that fact; Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, Earl 'Fatha' Hines, and Duke Ellington. As famous as those people are, they are not my cup of tea; more my parents cup of tea. That's why I define music "Before Bird", and After Bird; BB and AB. "Bird" revolutionized jazz, and that's an undeniable fact. My point is that Mary Lou Williams was so advanced that her music is more akin to Birds music than to the swing era. Let's compare her "It ain't Necessarily So" with Miles take on the same tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ugAlthough she came from the swing era, this is as hip as it gets. She's got just the right touch. Next the same tune by Miles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EgyUcHSSQBefore we discovered Mary Lou Williams, I thought Miles's was the hippest version of that tune, but now I'm not so sure. Any way you look at it, she was incredibly advanced, and I still can't figure why I'm so late in discovering her. Enjoy the music. |
