I hear you Rok; no body seems to be happy after we diverge; but we'll get Alex's input on this, we might even get some "wire worshipers" input, they always show up when there's a disagreement; do you think they'll show up now?
Maybe we should run this thread on two different tracks simultaneously; trains do it; but somebody always seems to jump their tracks and we have a head on collision.
Getting back to local musicians; a pianist I talked to a lot, could play Horace Silver's tunes as good as the man himself, and I was always asking him why didn't he go to New York, and become rich and famous. He kind of "sluffed" off the question, and never answered. After reading about Grant Green, I believe he knew something I didn't; these local musicians ain't doing too bad; nice homes, car, and I heard he had a beautiful wife to come home to. Why go on the road and get mis-used and abused.
Jazz musicians might get famous after going to New York, but how many get rich?
Enjoy the music.
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There is only ONE Jazz, and it's name is Jazz. No bloody prefixes, no freaking hybridization, no hyphens and no multi-syllable words needed.
Cheers
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Frogman, if you want to pursue this conversation according to the book, we could begin with "Ragtime" and Scott Joplin, followed by New Orleans jazz styles; which migrated to Chicago, and became "Chicago Jazz Styles", that was followed by "Swing", that evolved into "Bebop", that merged into "Hardbop", which cooled down to "Cool jazz", after which came a wide divergence and jazz split into "Free Jazz", "Soul Jazz", "Fusion and Rock Jazz" plus "Acid Jazz", and we can not leave out "Smooth Jazz" plus "Latin Jazz" which does not include "Brazilian Jazz".
As our lead jazz musician, where would you like to begin?
Enjoy the music.
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Rock, when I was digging "Peanuts" I had to darken that peach fuzz over my top lip, and wear a hat to look older, and hope no one ever asked for ID at the clubs he played.
Me and "Peanuts" were a lot younger then, and of course him and his band were a lot better than on that clip. There was so much live music at that time, that I rarely stayed home and listened to records.
Enjoy the music.
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Hugh "Peanuts" Whalum:
Very nice. They seem to be having fun and are so authentic. Something that would great to hear and see live. These sort of performances are what's needed to bring young folks into Jazz.
Would have been even better with a real piano and bass. And of course real piano and bass players.
Thanks
Cheers |
Frogman and Learsfool, an even better practice time was when he was sleeping; he could dream practice the whole performance. Why didn't I think of that. As usual, the Frogman and Learsfool are right.
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Just yesterday I was explaining to a musicians contractor why I don't car pool: time to and from a job is some of my best practice time.
Excellent explanation and post by Learsfool.
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learsfool, "There are many things one can and does practice without the instrument, especially when they involve thinking about musical ideas - you often do not need to physically play to be able to work them out in your head."
When you word something like that, "How can you be wrong"? When he was having a bowl of chili across the table from me, I could have looked at him and said "Uh huh, I caught you practicing, I know that practicing look when I see it"
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Learsfool, who am I to believe, you or my lying eyes? How many times do I have to tell you that the man was living with me? How many jazz groups have you played with? Is it ever possible for you to say, "I don't know"? Just because you and the Frogman say a thing is so, does not mean that it is, "It ain't necessarily so".
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Hi Orpheus - I am not "cleverly evading" anything. You are either willfully misunderstanding, or refusing to understand, however you like, what Frogman and I have said. As for me, I did not say that "I" or "you" have to practice improvisation. I said that ANYONE has to practice it. All of those jazz greats you have mentioned spent enormous amounts of time practicing improvisation, just like anyone has to practice any activity to get that good at it - this is what we have been trying to get through to you. And they continue to practice it throughout their entire career - just like, for example, a Kobe Bryant works on all his moves every day - he doesn't always know which one of them he is going to whip out at any given time in the real game - he often improvises that on the court, in the moment. But he can only do that because he has practiced it all over and over and over and over, and he is thinking in the moment about what he is going to do. Same with a jazz improviser. What they are doing in performance is not random in any way, shape, or form. It is very consciously thought out, in the moment, based on all the work they have done. Spontaneous? Yes. Thoughtless? No. It is a process they constantly work on - how do you think they got so good at it, and continued to get better? Work! Effort! Practice! Did they take some days off sometimes? Yes! I myself have taken an entire month off the instrument several times during the summer vacation, when my face really needed the break (though it takes at least a couple of weeks after that for a brass player like me to get back into shape again, so that's hard to find time to do). I believe that you never heard your friend practicing, as in actually playing his instrument in your apartment, that summer. But you are fooling yourself if you think he never did any kind of practice. For one example, a large part of any musician's practice is mental, and this would be especially true of an improviser - they are constantly thinking about things they could try, and how they would work out in a given context (you yourself brought up the concept of things they wished they could do, and I tried to explain a couple of things that could be meant by that without knowing the actual quotes). I guarantee your friend was doing some of that that summer, even if you never actually heard him play a note. There are many things one can and does practice without the instrument, especially when they involve thinking about musical ideas - you often do not need to physically play to be able to work them out in your head. But since you don't want to/refuse to speak that language, you cannot truly understand this, and I honestly don't know how I can explain it any better given that. Perhaps Frogman could give it a stab again. |
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Chuck Berry is another "home boy", he had the "Juke Joints" overflowing. If a guy wanted to see any girls, he had to follow the Blues, because there were very few ladies where you heard Miles and Trane. The best way to find the ladies was to follow Chuck Berry; where ever he was, the joint was over flowing with females.
There was so much live entertainment in St. Louis at that time, that it was hard to decide where to go. I'm going to find more local jazz from that era, and you come back with "The Delta Blues".
Enjoy the music.
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*****
just don't tell me Howlin Wolf was influenced by Tchaikovsky, and everything is OK. ***** Would you believe, Beethoven? :) Your home-home getting as close to classical as he will get. hahahah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOrMg3pY7hwCheers |
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Rok, I'm over that "culture thing" I had with the Delta Blues, and I can appreciate the Blues for what they are; just don't tell me Howlin Wolf was influenced by Tchaikovsky, and everything is OK.
Enjoy the music.
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Willie Dixon: Born in Mississippi, of course, who in Blues wasn't? Maybe the most prolific composer of blues songs ever. A lot of folks made their careers off his genius. As soon as he wrote them, the British invasion fraudsters stole them. Or so it seemed. I like him better as a writer, than as a performer. Howlin' Wolf doing one of Dixon's best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQLdztuMd1gCheers BTW, when you order your $300 Sam Lazar CD, get one for me. I'll pay you back Saturday. :) |
That's good news Rok, now all I have to do is get my darling wife to give me $296.90 to buy that CD.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, I've been listening to "Bud" since the last time I posted; it's cloudy and warm here in St. Louis, a perfect day for just "chilling" and listening to some good "West Coast" jazz, and that's exactly what I've been doing, thanks.
Enjoy the music.
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Wiki's says the great Willie Dixon played on a Sam Lazar recording . |
Alex, I listened to "Bud Shank's Quartet", and it was just the kind of West Coast jazz I've been looking for. It's going to take time to down load more, I'll keep you posted.
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Rok, after checking on "Willie Dixon", I'm still not sure. From what I can see, there seems to be more than 1 Willie Dixon.
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Orpheus, I have send you a message with a file. Check it out |
Rok, that is the most expensive CD I've ever seen, and he was one hell of player. In order to know just how good he was, you would have to have seen him live. Sam was a wild man on a organ; he could make it howl and growl, sounds you never heard coming from an organ. If money was no object, I would buy the CD, but since money is very much an object, I wont; however, I can go to "you tube" and reminisce.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
Sam Lazar CD prices on Amazon (Space Flight)
Used from $87.99
New $296.90
Surely you jest!! He must be one hell of a player.
Cheers
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Learsfool, I can definitely see how it would work very well on the clarinet. If you happen to have a PDF of his transcription, I would feel honored to have it. |
*****
Not only did the group play a variety of gigs from strip clubs to jazz clubs, *****
Now this sounds like a real Jazz Band, staying true to the roots of Jazz. :)
*****
and added bassist Willie Dixon to his regular working combo ****
Would this be THE Willie Dixon of Blues fame?
I will check out Mr Lazar. He is unknown to me.
Cheers |
Rok, those two Sam Lazar links are very important; using your Harvey, Sam Stewart analogy, that was as close to any music I could find that Harvey was playing that Summer. Listen as well as you can through the distortion.
Sam Lazar was like a shooting star; he burned brighter than any of the other stars for a minute or two, and then went out. Fortunately, he played many local clubs, and I caught him as much as I could.
Sam Lazar was an American pianist and Hammond organist originally from St. Louis, Missouri. A mysterious figure who disappeared from the music scene in the early 1960s He is best known for fronting a group that included early work from guitarist Grant Green. His first LP on Argo Records approximates his birth year as 1933. Initially a pianist, Lazar played in Ernie Wilkins group before Wilkins left St. Louis to join Count Basie. This was followed by a stint in George Hudson's big band which also included Clark Terry and Jimmy Forrest at various times. After a tour with alto saxophonist Tab Smith.
In 1958, Lazar saw the Jimmy Smith trio at the Peacock Alley club in St. Louis and was inspired to play the Hammond organ. His St. Louis-based organ combo later included guitarists Grant Green, Joe Diorio, George Eskridge, drummer Chauncey Williams and saxophonist Miller Brisker among others. Not only did the group play a variety of gigs from strip clubs to jazz clubs, but they were reportedly one of the first interracial combos in the area.
Lazar recorded a single on Cawthron Records, and then went on to make several albums in the 1960s for the Chicago-based Argo Records. His first, Space Flight, was recorded in 1960 and added bassist Willie Dixon to his regular working combo featuring Williams and fellow St. Louis musician Grant Green.
He disappeared from the music scene in the early 60's, and nobody seems to know what happened to him. Musicians like him are definitely worth a listen, especially if you can find a CD without so much distortion.
Enjoy the music.
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This what I am trying to say. After this, I'm moving on.
Ford Motor company invents the assembly line method of auto production. A truly great innovation. Changes manufacturing around the globe. Cars are still produced this way today. Ford still does it, as does makers like BMW, and Rolls Royce.
The question is, although we agree Ford changed, influenced, the way cars are made. But, what do current Rolls Royce cars, and BMW cars, have in common with Ford Fusions. Where is the FORD influence in a Rolls Royce automobile?
People around the world paint by smashing plants to create some sort of dye, and they then use their fingers to paint or draw on cave walls or rocks or trees. Some guy, "Mr Jones", one day invents canvas, paint and brushes. His invention spreads around the world at light speed. Everyone is using Canvas, paint and brushes.
Question: Has Mr Jones influenced art? He certainly has influenced the tools they use to paint. But, has he influence WHAT artist around the world paint? Can you say that the Mona Lisa was influenced by Mr Jones?
Are we confusing tools and methods, with the talent and creativity to use those tools?
In my opinion, The European Classical Tradition is represented by Ford and "Mr Jones." Rolls Royce and The Mona Lisa , represent folks like Mingus and Ellington.
That's as clear as I can state my position. Time to move on.
Cheers |
Frogman, I never heard of Charles Ives before you mentioned him. Did he jam at Mintons? |
Learsfool, you are cleverly evading my statement, consequently I have to repeat it; "You will never be able to improvise like the jazz musicians we have discussed, no matter how much you practice, or how many schools you go to". Your statement was that you have to practice in order to improvise. You have to practice in order to play "Jingle Bells" properly.
Have we concluded the practicing and improvising?
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I actually consider Charles Ives to be the quintessential American composer. He wrote quite a lot of music - hundreds of songs, a very famous piano sonata called the Concord Sonata, and many pieces for orchestra. A very short and popular piece for orchestra by Ives is called the Unanswered Question - that might be a good place to start. One of his largest scale works is his 4th Symphony.
By the way, Frogman, my father transcribed his violin sonata for clarinet.
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Signing off now; I have a 6:15 AM spinning class to make. |
O-10, how much Charles Ives have you listened to? Until you have, any answer to your question will be meaningless. |
I get it, if there had not been any classical music, there would be no jazz. Jazz musicians who did not study classical music should be discounted. All jazz musicians studied classical music before they become jazz musicians. That's why Miles left Juilliard. Are all or any of the above correct?
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O-10 and Rok, perhaps it has not been obvious to you or to anyone else but me, but I believe I have proven my willingness to, in spite of all the disagreement and nonsense, to try and be amicable and, at least, try to keep these discussions on a positive track. I have even suggested some guidelines for what I feel is more positive and less contentious interaction. Most of these efforts have been met with, at best, negative reaction and, at worst, ridicule. O-10, no one thinks or has suggested that you are a moron, but you continue to interact in a way that is provocative and simply not very nice nor inclusive. What is being discussed is obvious to me and, I think, others here. So, if you want to take the discussions in a certain direction I suggest that you simply do so and try to keep the negative innuendo out of it.
Rok, we have been here before. I have no need nor desire to "strut my stuff". I would prefer to share and interact in discussions about music and discuss topics as they come up. What you ask in your most recent post can be mostly answered by simply going back over previous discussions and doing simple internet searches and perhaps reconsidering your reaction to much of what was presented to you. I am not about to make up for your "laziness" when previous efforts were dismissed and/or ridiculed. Moreover, I don't believe the problem is any laziness on your part, but that of a very rigid and self-serving attitude about much of what we try to discuss. This reaction on my part is not due to spite or anger, but simply the believe that the only way to have a chance at a real change in how we interact here is by frankness and then let the chips fall where they may. You ask some interesting questions and, as I said, the answers are easily found in the readily available reading on the net. Your last question is particularly interesting and I will take a stab at it when I have some time next.
****Should we separate the structure of music, from the artistic part of music, when speaking of influence?****
As I have said more times than I can remember: I hope we can do better going forward.
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Hi guys - Rok has provided over the last day or so a perfect example of what I was talking about with O-10....sigh, indeed. Frogman, this is reminding me of a certain John Cleese video from about a year ago.
O-10, I generally visit this site once a day, usually late in the evening after I get home from work. Sometimes two or three days will go by, but I have been an avid follower of everything on this thread even when not posting. The reason I hadn't responded to all these posts today is that I hadn't seen them until late this evening. All I have to say about this: "Rok, no matter what you say they will never get it." is that I think it is abundantly clear from all of the posts from others on this thread is that it is you and Rok that will not ever get it. Like I said, I will give up on my appeals for you guys to actually study music a little, but I will not stop correcting things that are just flat out wrong.
Though I will add in response to Rok's post that there are plenty of great music history books out there that will answer all of his questions. There is a very popular one by Joseph Kerman called Listen, that comes with a big record set, though it is probably on CDs nowadays. It is a very basic overview of the entire history of music all the way up to jazz and the Beatles, and may have had subsequent updates from when it was my Intro to Music Lit text my freshman year, in the mid 80s. Very readable, with great musical examples.
The only specific I will answer here is that I do not see how one can truly separate the structure of music from the artistic part of it - form is part of the artistry, part of the craft. This is true, by the way, of improvising as well - improvisation must have structure to be understandable. Something that must be PRACTICED. :) |
Frogman, would you care to explain why and how, Mingus's "Epitaph" owes so much to Charles Ives?
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And each and every clip a Jazz Classic.
If those clips prove anything, it's that Jazz and Classical are not compatible. Of course MJQ proved that eons ago. They gave up.
Cheers |
Acman3, well done! And in more ways than one; I believe you know what I mean but that. Fantastic posts and excellent example of contrasting styles of jazz piano +2. If your series of clips do not dispel any doubt about the influence of Classical composers on jazz players, I dont know what would. Art Tatum's take on D'vorak's "Humoresque", Bud Powell who also recorded "Bud On Bach", John Lewis' "Abstractions", and Mingus' "Epitaph" which owes so much to Charles Ives; all great. For substance and timeliness, I nominate your series of posts as a contender for "best" post of this thread. Wait!....too dangerous; "best" has never taken us anywhere positive. Still, well done! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HVk9xFLHAWYhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=viVQEYVsCC4 |
Frogman, precisely what is being discussed? The conversation I see is bouncing around like a pin ball in a pin ball machine. Why don't you specify a conversation with defined parameters and we'll discuss that.
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I heard this live; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9SVGZGaGdAAlthough there is all kind of distortion, can you hear beyond the distortion; this is jazz musicians just jammin, all improvisation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8z0u9oS9ZcThese are St. Louis musicians playing for the joy of making music in 1960. I hate these cuts are so short. Late night when they were live, they went from one idea into another, the way improvising musicians play, and 15 minutes was typical. Compare what you have on record, to Horace Silver live, and note the time difference. The organ or the guitar took the music in a different direction, and it was like follow the leader; this is what improvising is all about, no written music. No amount of practice will enable you to improvise like the top jazz musicians we've discussed, and Frogman knows it; either you got it or you don't. They used the word "practice" as if I'm saying these musicians never practiced; evidently they think I'm a "MOW-RON". How many times have Learsfool and Frogman inferred that? Grant Green would come into his favorite lounge, lean up against the jukebox, and just start playing, of course no body said anything or minded. After he finished, he would have a drink and leave. He was lean with a thick head of hair, and a build like a cowboy. When this baldheaded dude who was slightly overweight came up to me, I didn't know who he was. Time brings about a change. While there was a change in his looks, his playing just got better and better; he never evolved to some unrecognizable music that he called jazz. To me, this music is living and breathing, it's a part of me. Enjoy the music. |
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The Frogman as usual is correct. My view is:
This is some of what we need to know, and I am too lazy to try and discover the answers
What preceded "The European Classical Tradition" in Europe? Where did it come from.
Do / did all human cultures, at their most primitive, create indigenous music? Think, the aborigines in Australia and the recently found tribes in the Amazon region. Did they make music?
Should we separate the structure of music, from the artistic part of music, when speaking of influence?
Time for The Frogman to strut his stuff.
Cheers
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****We just don’t buy into the school of thought, that the "European Classical Tradition" is the end all, be all, of human music. It was not Alpha and it sure as hell won’t be Omega.****
Kindly explain who and when, on this thread, made such a comment? Talk about strawman arguments.
****Just because you say it, don’t make it so. I know that may be hard for you to grasp****
You’re absolutely correct! Except for the "hard to grasp" part. You see, I base my comments on my perceptions and the opinion of individuals who can put me under the table and shame me with the depth of their knowledge about musical matters. They are out there and I welcome those individuals into my sphere of knowledge.
O-10, no way! I’m not touching that one again. Besides what does that have to do with what is being discussed now? I think your "cut/paste" function on your pc may be stuck. I seem to have read that exact comment a few times before; Metheny and all.
Now, c’mon you guys, is it really that hard to see how silly all this is. If it weren’t for the hipocracy of it all it would be kinda funny. Let’s try to do better and uplift this thread. The music deserves it. |
