Alex I appreciate you coming out in my favor, but I have totally disregarded them dudes in regard to "Grant Green". I'm trying to find out what the recording quality is on "The Complete Blue Note recordings of Grant Green with Sonny Clark"
Once before I got a long compilation of Chico Hamilton's albums, that had lousy recording quality. I got a 3 sound compilation with the same problem. It's a waste of time and money to get anything with lousy recording quality.
I want all 0f those albums that were released late and went to Japan, those are the ones I don't have. Let me know if you got a lead on those.
Enjoy the music.
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Without any particular wish to try to establish the exact meaning of the term 'important' , on this forum or yet in jazz history, or to start another discussion, I would certainly called the sound and music of G.Green important. If that is any proof, it seems that obviously there were other 'important' or less 'important' players who thought the same and created some fine music with him, or were at least moved by his playing. Personal tastes a side, I think that there are only a few names whos absence in world of jazz would be felted in a way that today the music would be different without them, but to speculate about it seems absurd. Here is one song on album of Orpheus's friend https://youtu.be/vVMMcQspCDs |
This is the day after an all night stand of partying, and nobody wanted to go home; it's around 7 AM and here we are sitting around "Maude's Flat", "whipped" meaning too tired, but not wanting to go home. There's a guy there I call "Rapscallion" because he's forever rapping, and everybody is listening because he's the only person with enough energy to rapp. Nobody knows what he's talking about, but he's talking fast and hip; consequently, it must be about something, but nobody has the mental agility to figure out what it is. BLUES IN MAUD'S FLAT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJKFQ-OqPoEnjoy the music. |
Art Blakey would not have wound up poverty stricken, if he had quit hitting on "Nica". He didn't realize she was a 'Baroness' or didn't know what that meant. Rich Americans pay a fortune to get a title like that by marrying someone with a title. She was trying to help manage his affairs, and he was hitting on the lady. She could take a bath with nothing but a cigarette in her cigarette holder, listening to Monk and Miles, or whoever happened to be jamming downstairs, and no one would dare take a peek. She went to the worst neighborhoods in New York ( so bad that cops wouldn't even go to them), and let the winos guard her Bentley while she took in the set at a reserved table.
It would seem that would have told Blakey something; but no, not until the lady got tired of trying to help him, and I don't think he realized even then what went down; but I was told that drummers aren't the brightest bulbs.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, and Rok, I never realized how good Grant Green's records were until now. I knew he was a good jazz musician, but I didn't realize how good until now. Maybe it's because I had heard him live without paying a fortune.
I don't know when or how he became a "junky"; I "strongly suspect" it had something to do with his associates at Blue Note records. Why did they, the junkys that is, wind up "poverty stricken"? Although they were some of the most talented jazz musicians who ever lived, they wound up poverty stricken. One of the reasons for certain is; they became junkys, but junkys with good business managers don't become "poverty stricken"; therefore I advise all junkys to get good business managers, and set a little aside for that "need a fix bad" day.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
Who said he had a rough life? ******
You did. He died young, strung out on drugs and broke. Ooops, almost forgot, he was cheated and made to take drugs by the folks at Blue Note.
*****
What's a rough life got to do with his music? *****
On this thread, everything. You don't examine his music so much as feel sorry for him.
*****
What the holy smoly does Prince have to do with Grant Green, Since you threw in The Beatles, why quit there, lets throw in the Pope.*****
My way of saying, that if GAME CHANGERS, like Prince, The Beatles and probably every artist that has ever recorded, including Elvis, Chuck Berry and Miles, can have unreleased material, what is the big deal about a run of the mill R&G guitar player from St Louis having the same?
It and he are not that significant. He did not change the direction of Jazz. He was not Charles Christian. Not Miles. Not even Chuck Berry. If he had not lived, how would Jazz be different today? It wouldn't!
Made a few nice albums, but a lot of 'lame' LPs in the 70's. Not my words, professional reviewers say this.
Get over it. He was not that important. He should thank Blue Note.
That's what I meant to say, or words to that effect.
Cheers
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Now that you've made the Prince connection, can you make the Pope connection?
Enjoy the music. |
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Rok, would you please read that post again. Maybe you can answer how the records got to Japan. What the holy smoly does Prince have to do with Grant Green, Since you threw in The Beatles, why quit there, lets throw in the Pope.
Just because he was from St Louis and had a rough life does not make his music any more than what it is.
Who said he had a rough life? Bush of the beer Bushes is from St. Louis; everybody from St. Louis did not have a rough life. What's a rough life got to do with his music? Miles Davis is from St. Louis, and his daddy was a dentist; Miles got almost anything he wanted. His daddy paid for Juilliard school of music plus expenses, he was from St. Louis. I don't get the connection of music and rough life, could you elaborate?
In regard to staying focused, I can plainly see that; you're not focused enough for me to know what you're talking about.
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Just because he was from St Louis and had a rough life does not make his music any more than what it is.
'Live at the Lighthouse' commits the cardinal sin or being BORING. You know they are going to play before they play it. I could not stay focused long enough to listen to it.
BTW, I see where the AMG liked it. Just proves there is no accounting for taste.
Cheers |
*****
Fact 2. Grant Greens best records were not released in his life time. While that has been asserted by others; you're an "aficionado", meaning if you were to evaluate the records, you would know whether or not they were inferior. If you don't feel you are capable of that, then you're on the wrong thread.*****
I have never read anything from the folks at Blue Note stating why the sessions were not released. I do know that all artist record stuff that is delayed or even never released. We are talking about this now in regards to Prince, and I think he controlled his own stuff. Ran his own studio.
The Beatles had stuff that was not released. Some movies are made and never released. Some sub par music and movies are released and they often kill the careers of many budding actors and artists.
When you consider how these people were paid. I don't get any sense of what could have been the motivation for Blue Note to hold back the release. These were not Rock recordings. There wasn't that much money at stake. It's not like famous painters whose work increases in value after they die. If you own a Monet, it is unique, the only one he painted. The probably made thousand of copies of 'Matador' in one day. And, they have not sold them all yet.
Cheers
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*****
Fact 1. Blue Note had so many "junky musicians" that Horace Silver quit working at Blue Note. Now it's time for a question; why did Blue Note have so many junky musicians?*****
I have read that about Silver, so I assume it's true.
Why so many Junkies at Blue Note? Jazz was lousy with Junkies at one time. It was part of the life style. Blue Note was the most prominent Jazz label, so, where else would you expect to find them? At Deutsche Grammophon?
Some folks who are real Geniuses in one endeavor, can be total jerks, even child-like, in other areas. Even Coltrane was affected by that stuff.
A better question would be, "why didn't more players follow the lead of Horace Silver". Wno, btw, played for many years. Long after the weak minded had passed from this earth.
Cheers |
Frogman, I will most certainly drink to both of those.
Enjoy the music.
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Fact 1. Blue Note had so many "junky musicians" that Horace Silver quit working at Blue Note.
Now it's time for a question; why did Blue Note have so many junky musicians?
Fact 2. Grant Greens best records were not released in his life time. While that has been asserted by others; you're an "aficionado", meaning if you were to evaluate the records, you would know whether or not they were inferior. If you don't feel you are capable of that, then you're on the wrong thread.
Fact 3. These so called "inferior records" wound up in Japan; did they walk?
Fact 1. + fact 2. + fact 3. = Blue Note's bottom line. They sold those records to Japan, with the stipulation, that they not be released for American consumption until after Grant Green was dead.
The reason for fact 1 is because a "junky" would sell his mama for a fix. Blue Note also had the best jazz musicians. I know Grant Green was a boss jazz musician before he went to work for Blue Note. I do not know anything about Grant Green being a junky before he went to Blue Note. St. Louis is not a big town when it comes to the grapevine, a secret like that is almost impossible to keep.
Blue Note almost kidnapped Grant Green; one listen and they knew he was boss; jazz was in his soul; I know I witnessed it personally, many times.
"Junky" jazz musicians who are some of the very best, who will sign almost anything when their "Jones come down" "Ma jones coming down on me"
There it is Rok, and I didn't even have to multiply or do "long division".
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, facts make their own point, do you remember "The facts mam, nothing but the facts" that's all. Once the facts are gathered, you be the judge.
Enjoy the facts. |
O-10:
Exactly what point are you trying to make referenced Grant Green?
Cheers |
Frogman, by the process of deduction, we know it wasn't because they were inferior recordings, and "Live At The Lighthouse" wasn't even in the mix of possibilities that were not released. Since we know the recordings that were not released during his lifetime, all you have to do is evaluate them.
It has been stated that his "best" recordings were not released. While you say you're not a conspiracy theorist; what kind of theorist are you? After you discover the "inferior record" statement was a flat out "Lie"; what's left?
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I've got almost all of Grant Greens CD's, and the one I like the least is "King Funk", but we ordered that for Donald Byrd, and not Grant Green, if you remember; consequently, that's good to.
Grant is a very creative artist, and you wont get stuck in a rut with him. I've only got two records, "Live At The Lighthouse", and "The Final Comedown" which is radically different, and I like it, but it didn't suit your taste; so almost everything except that. The best way to go about this, is to sample on "you tube" and get what you like that you don't have.
I've got so many that I forget what I got, and since I don't have them in any kind of order, it would be a job to find out what I got; if that makes any sense. He's the only artist that I didn't run into a brick wall with, meaning this sounds just like the last one; consequently, you wont buy anything that you'll regret having bought.
Enjoy the music.
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For the record, and to keep my quoted comments in proper not incomplete/distorted context:
****The often discussed great (and he was) Grant Green made recordings late in his career that where, in my opinion, considerably inferior to his classics.****
Moreover, the entire second half of my quoted comments are in reference to a recording other than the reposted "Lighthouse" recording. And, of course, the even bigger context and reason for my comments was the attempt to determine a possible reason for why some recordings are not released right away. I am generally not one for conspiracy theories.
Man, if that olive tree loses any more branches, not even Bird will be able to find a perch on it 😊 |
I don't pay any attention to those categories in regard to jazz (soul jazz) What's that? I'm not going to clutter my mind trying to define it. If you listen close to Grant Greens guitar, (Boss Jazz) is the only kind it (his guitar) knows how to play; and you can tell that from the sounds coming from the audience at "The Lighthouse".
No one comes between me and my music, not even my darling wife; right now I'm listening to "Flood in Franklin Park" and it's kicking, and cooking. Everybody is getting into the act: that organ is smoking, give the drummer some, cause he done kicked it up a notch, don't play that cat on the horn cheap; everybody made outstanding contributions on that cut, even the audience.
Enjoy the music.
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Below is Frogmans statement in regard to the music posted. "the recently posted "Live At The Lighthouse". Whose idea was it to hire Claude Bartee for that recording? Who knows. But it was not a good choice; he sounds absolutely awful on soprano saxophone. I can see a scenario where label executives would decide to not release a recording like that because there was so much other music in a similar bag being released by them or other labels. I hate posting recordings of what I consider inferior music, but simply to make a point here is a recording that, to my way of thinking, one has to wonder "what where they thinking?"; and almost twenty minutes of it!! Terrible horn arrangements. Sometimes artists make bad choices; sometimes producers make bad choices or decisions. Simple as that." Here are two jams I posted 04-28-16. This is the music Frogman referred to as "inferior". While this music is "inferior" to Frogman, I don't like it any less because of his judgment; if anything, I like it even more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW_YbNKAXfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC0qN0SquJM Enjoy the music. |
Benson’s take on Mario Bauza’s Cu-bop classic which Grant Green recorded three decades earlier. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11-TeC5wq90A generation that is not particularly appreciative of the "less is more" approach to things might be seduced by Benson’s very slick state of the art rrangement and production. I like it; but, for feel and swagger Green’s version gets my vote. I suspect O-10 would agree. What do you think, O-10? |
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Grant Green:
I have these:
Sunday Mornin' Solid Matador Idle Moments Feelin' The Spirit
What others do you recommend?
Cheers |
Many of Grant's recordings were not released during his lifetime. These include McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones (also part of the Solid group) performing on Matador (also recorded in 1964), and several albums with pianist Sonny Clark. In 1966 Grant left Blue Note and recorded for several other labels, including Verve. From 1967 to 1969 Grant was, for the most part, inactive due to personal problems and the effects of heroin addiction. In 1969 Grant returned with a new funk-influenced band. His recordings from this period include the commercially successful Green is Beautiful and the soundtrack to the film The Final Comedown.
Enjoy the music.
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The Frogman / Learsfool:
Thanks for the insight into the music business and the review / comments on the Handel piece. I did not notice the absence of a conductor. I was so focused on the players.
I also have the John Gardiner CD. I should branch out, and try more Classical Composers.. I tend to buy the best performances of the stuff with which I am familiar. I have noticed that the names of the Composers being reviewed are starting to be more and more unfamiliar. Back in the day, all the reviews seemed to be of the usual suspects.
Cheers |
It is rare the artist that retains the rights to unreleased material. It is possible to include a provision in an artist’s contract that stipulates that, should the label fail to release the recording, the artist then retains the copyright to that recording. However, this is rare and the record label usually owns all of the contracted artist’s material for (usually) fifty years or so. Agree or disagree the record labels reasoning and justification for these practices is their claim that it takes a great deal of upfront investment to record, release and promote a recording. As Rok points out, they are a business and in the business of. making money. Having said that, I think it’s important to remember that if the label doesn’t make money, no artist makes money (from recordings). I don’t believe that a record label sets out to NOT release a recording and then save it until the artist has passed in an effort to make money. They don’t release a particular recording because they don’t feel it is commercially viable AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. Contrary to popular belief here, some artists DO make and HAVE made inferior recordings. I use this example not to start yet another war here, but as an expression of my viewpoint. The often discussed great (and he was) Grant Green made recordings late in his career that where, in my opinion, considerably inferior to his classics. The most recently posted clips of his work show an artist going into a (soul-funk-whatever) genre that was populated by some pretty stiff competition like George Benson and Wes Montgomery; players who were receiving a lot of attention and backing. Importantly, for some reason, his backing bands in these later recordings sometimes left a lot to be desired, imo. Case in point, the recently posted "Live At The Lighthouse". Whose idea was it to hire Claude Bartee for that recording? Who knows. But it was not a good choice; he sounds absolutely awful on soprano saxophone. I can see a scenario where label executives would decide to not release a recording like that because there was so much other music in a similar bag being released by them or other labels. I hate posting recordings of what I consider inferior music, but simply to make a point here is a recording that, to my way of thinking, one has to wonder "what where they thinking?"; and almost twenty minutes of it!! Terrible horn arrangements. Sometimes artists make bad choices; sometimes producers make bad choices or decisions. Simple as that. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKVvBHusoMYEven the great Michael Brecker's solo sounds a little "dialed in". |
Hi guys - first, to answer a question Rok posed: "If the LP is not released, how does the artist get paid or make money?" Answer: the artists are paid for their work in the recording sessions themselves - in fact, this is the biggest single payment they receive, unless the album does incredibly well and they end up making a fair amount of royalties over many years. Most albums don't sell that much, though, and the royalties do not usually add up to what the original payment for the recording sessions were. Only the very biggest artists make a significant amount of money in royalties - also the studio musicians who do most of the movies in LA and London. Also guys that play for TV and radio commercials that end up getting used over and over again for years and years do very well if they are lucky enough to have done one of those (for instance, think of those Motel 6 radio ads that may have the voice-over changed up, but it is that same music that they originally recorded and gets re-used in otherwise new commercials - those guys that did that session still make very good money in re-use payments, but that is unusual nowadays). For orchestral musicians, the upfront payment we get for the session itself is much bigger than anything we ever get afterwards in the way of royalties, if there even are any. It also depends, for us, on the type of recording and the agreement it is recorded under. Many orchestras now self-produce their recordings, and they have a limited, local release, which makes it cheaper for them.
The Academy of Early Music Berlin is one of the finer early music ensembles going right now, and that is a very nice performance. The very best early music groups are still in England, though, which is sort of where that whole movement got started. There are some good ones here in the states, too. To answer Frogman's question on my opinion of the natural horn playing - I think those guys are pretty good, though there is definitely better around the world, both here and in England. The best performance of the Water Music on natural horns that I know of is John Eliot Gardiner's group (The English Baroque Soloists) - those guys that play for him are really great. That is something I have always had an interest in doing but have never pulled the trigger on - I don't own a natural horn. I really should, as there is a need for it where I am - I could easily get enough work with it to justify the purchase and learning the technique. Part of it is that I am a low horn player, and much of the solo natural horn work would be high, quite a bit different from what I normally do. I have always wanted to find a good high horn player to do it with me as a pair, so it would suit me better, but that hasn't happened yet. |
G.F. Händel: Water Music - Akademie für alte Musik Berlin:
Fabulous! If I could could give it six stars (and anybody cared), I would. Beautiful and spirited playing of this wonderful music. Truth is, I have never been a huge fan of the "period instrument" movement for some of the very reasons that I didn't like the French orchestra's performance. This is special. The period instruments display their unique timbres and overall "softer" tones; but, when appropriate, these players dig in and play them with real verve and without the often heard sense that there is something unusually precious about these period instruments or the way they are supposed to be played. Fabulous baroque oboe, baroque flute and natural horn playing (would like to know Learsfool's take on the latter). Excellent intonation and section to section balance (!) overall.
There is something special, when it works, about a conductorless orchestra. In this case the "conductor" is the concert master. Players are forced (a good thing) to listen to each other with a level of care that is not always the case when there is a conductor's beat to follow. Some really magical things can happen as a resuIt. It doesn't always work and in no way should the role of a great conductor be underestimated. This definitely works.
They are standing as was common practice at the time the music was composed. Not all are standing; only the ones who can. I don't know that this is the same performance that would be on the disc as I read a reference to the one on the disc having been recorded in a studio. Harmonia Mundi recording is a sure bet that it will be great sounding and no reason to expect that it would not be a performance at least as good as the one heard on this video.
Loved it. Thanks and will be ordering it myself.
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I don't even pretend to understand the music business, but I always thought the amount of money an artist made was at least in part based on record sales.
If the LP is not released, how does the artist get paid or make money? Any player with an IQ over 6 would be aware that music recordings sell forever. A player in 1965 would know that records cut decades before where still being sold.
So what did he think happened to the stuff that was not released? Why didn't the contract demand release? What didn't he retain the rights to all unreleased sessions? What was he paid for recording sessions that were not released? Had they heard of Lawyers?
Why would they think the guys at the studio would put their, the player's, interest before their own?
Do I think all this OK? No. It's just human nature. Today there was a crisis here in my home. 'Our' cat that has set up homestead in our back yard, cleaned out his bowl of food, and then walked right out into the yard and killed a bird at the bird bath. My wife wants to kill the cat. i asked, why? She was just doing what cats do. They kill things. That's what they do. If she was bigger, she would kill us.
Jazz players make music, and business men make money. That's what they do. The more the businessmen makes, the less the player makes.
Cheers |
Rok, you're talking in general, and I'm talking about specific cases where all the details were laid out. There is no doubt about what you are saying, but in this case the drug addicts were taken advantage of, the same as sharecroppers who couldn't read and write were taken advantage of.
You seem to be saying it's OK to take advantage of drug addicts just like it's OK to take advantage of people who can't read and write, is that right?
No, we are not talking about the same thing; this is about "so called" sub standard albums that were not released until after the musician was dead. Those albums as it turns out, were the best he ever made, and you being an 'aficionado' could judge that, in regard to the albums.
Enjoy the music.
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If you are speaking of Jazz musicians that end up broke and dead at 27, it's their fault.
Harsh but true: "A Fool and his Money are soon parted".
Truer words have never been spoken.
As I have said before, some folks just think other people should look out for their best interest. What a strange idea.
I think the drug thingy is true for this reason: Consider pro athletes. Some make more money in a year than most working class folks make in their lives. Within 5 years of their playing days, they are all broke. Seek out, and watch the episode of the ESPN program 30/30 titled "Broke". You won't know whether to laugh or cry. I laughed.
Lay off that purple stuff.
Cheers |
Rok, I wonder about these musician drug addicts in regard to their business dealings. First, no matter what the "up standing business" says about the "drug addict", the public takes their word for it. Now I find that the "up standing business" was flat out lying; and another question is "Why did that business have so many drug addicts"? So many that one musician left for that very reason. I didn't finish college, but I can add, subtract, multiply, and I can even do long division; these numbers for the musicians ain't coming up right.
Enjoy the music.
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Sansui,Dual, and JBL sounded pretty good back then, and they didn't break the bank. Even today, a Sansui tuner is beautiful, and it's sound is unique among tuners "mello" is how I would describe it. Now that you mention it, I don't have any Gabor CD's. I guess I didn't keep up with musicians back then, because I didn't know a lot of things about him, like he was on drugs, and died relatively young. I don't think I've heard enough of his music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1bor_Szab%C3%B3Enjoy the music. |
Szabo:
Was introduced to his music while in Germany. His were some of the first Jazz LPs I purchased. Right along with Quincy and Wes. I Have a ton of his stuff on LP. Hard to find now on CD, except used. I do have on CD, 'The Sorcerer' and '1969'.
He definitely had a unique sound. Maybe so unique it all has a sameness to it. Brings back great times. Sansui, Dual and JBL.
Cheers |
Jim Pepper:
Very nice. I liked it. A little repetitious, but a nice tune, and the sax playing was good.
*****
I would hope no Indians of any persuasion were harmed by my error, which once I noticed was to late to edit.*****
Too late. I'm outraged.
Cheers |
After the last PC incident I will add , I meant to say American Indians. I would hope no Indians of any persuasion were harmed by my error, which once I noticed was to late to edit.
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Also, why are they standing? |
The Frogman: The last time I posted this music, played by the French at the Proms, it was panned by The Frogman. Horns out of tune and the conductor was an idiot etc.... This performance was given 5 stars for recording and performance in the latest issue of BBC Music magazine. Since there is a guy wearing headphones in the group, I assume this is the actual performance that was recorded and reviewed in the Magazine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVAB2z1RPu4Since I am prone to buy 5 star ratings, I thought I would get your thoughts. Cheers |
I was too upset when I learned of Gato's death to say anything coherent, that's why I remained silent. Now that I have regained my composure I can speak about my long love affair with Gato's music. Leandro Jose Barbieri, was born on November 28, 1932 in Rosario, Santa Fe Province, Argentina. Better known as "El Gato", the cat, he began playing music after hearing Charlie Parker's "Nows The Time". He died April 2, 2016 in New York, NY. My first album by Gato was "Chapter 1 Latin America" with cuts: 1 Encuentros 2 India https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcqbgVB-U5o3 China 4 Nunca Más 5 To Be Continued When I saw the movie "Last Tango In Paris", the soundtrack for that movie, sealed the deal for me and "El Gato" for the rest of his life. The movie and the music were "one"; meaning, after you saw the movie, when you heard the music, the scenes with Marlon Brando, and Maria Schneider flashed in your mind; the movie was erotic and seductive, so was the music, because of the movie. The Tango is both erotic and seductive; Gato's music is very seductive, it pulls you in with it's "romanticism". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeDc_eHRM2Y He was his music, that's why you could feel the intensity of the romantism; an example is, "She Is Michelle" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pxJrSs1vuAI could go on and on about Gato's music, but I hope I have introduced you to enough so that you will go on and on with Gato's music. Enjoy the music. |
And a sincere apology to mattmiller in case my attempt at stealth humor was not obvious; nothing directed at him personally. Thanks for the post and please stick around. Btw, we have recently checked out the great Michael Brecker. You mention Billy Cobham, his second record "Crosswinds" was the very first time that I heard Brecker. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l-b_h8i9eWU |
Yes, THE Mitch Miller. He played oboe on "Bird With Strings"; all oboe parts improvised, btw.
Good catch; you win back the prize.
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I must have missed a few posts. Who is mattmiller and mitchmiller?
Is that THE Mitch Miller on a Bird set??? The sing-a-long king?
What's next, Lawrence Welk meets Monk?
Cheers |