https://youtu.be/nilp-xPq0Y0
https://youtu.be/Y8lNm8fO204
https://youtu.be/yStCqteGiQU
https://youtu.be/AAQs6Z8jqXw
https://youtu.be/GXhXkYw3FmIhttps
https://youtu.be/GoBhmxHgHig
Jazz for aficionados
As for 61. or 62. question, its a quite broad subject? Could we narrow it a bit? East or west cost, or bossa maybe? Personal favourits or 'influental' albums? Few ones that I like, out of head.... all known names...for a change https://youtu.be/nilp-xPq0Y0 https://youtu.be/Y8lNm8fO204 https://youtu.be/yStCqteGiQU https://youtu.be/AAQs6Z8jqXw https://youtu.be/GXhXkYw3FmIhttps https://youtu.be/GoBhmxHgHig |
I am not quite certain, but Ammons, Hawes, Dupree and some other guys were in the prison at the same time, maybe even in the sam prison, and I have read somewhere (think it was Dupree who said it) that his best band was in fact, the prison bend. That might be a black humor joke, but could be true... As for Orpheus's quest, we cant know for sure, so what is the point of guessing? Green was not the only guy who had unissued material. I wrote before about Bobby Hutcherson, and his album 'The Kicker' made with same line up that made Green's 'Idle Moments'. Both albums were made within days,in 1963. 'The Kicker' remained on shelf for years. https://youtu.be/kv8I3QzIqQc?list=PLA4B6B56EDBBAC42F Maybe we should post the albums that were not published at the time when they were recorded? I am sure that from todays perspective we could find many good ones, and we would continue to wonder why they were never released, but like I said, until we find the way to know for sure, its quite pointless,imho |
While Hampton Hawes was in prison, he met "Stymie" of Our Gang fame, he was in for drug addiction. Sonny Clark ODed while he was in prison; what a coincident that we are talking about "Sonny Clark", and I'm reading about Hampton Hawes stay in prison, who is reading where Sonny Clark done did it one time too many. I was moved by the pardon JFK gave him; a humanitarian in the White House, that's hard to believe. Hampton was back out on the streets in LA before he realized he wasn't dreaming. He was busted in order to get suppliers in LA, but when he didn't rat, they gave him ten years; "This'll teach you to squeal if we want you to squeal". He has a really good autobiography that I will have to get, "Raise Up Off Me", and he had a successful career till he died. His story had a good ending; I'll have to get some of his records. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, I realize that I haven't earned the classification of "aficionado" (although I seem to have graduated to "connoisseur"), but since this is an open forum I will give this a stab eventhough you ask the question of your fellow "aficionados". Â Moreover, so far as I can tell, only one poster has expressed an opinion on the matter that you have not dismissed completely. Â So, your use of the plural with "aficionados" must mean that you are being inclusive. Â You obviously don't care about the calls from other participants here to drop this Grant Green business and at some point you are going to have to understand that you set yourself up for disagreement and worse. Â Several possible reasons have been given for why those recordings were not released. You have dismissed every single reason given as 100%, even 200%, wrong. Â Not only does claiming someone is wrong suggest that you know what the correct answer is, but you have failed to give your own (presumably correct) answer. Â So, what is it? Â Why don't we start there. Â My contention is simple, the records were released as dictated by Grant's contract. Â So, anything else, right or wrong, humane or not, is moot. Â You admit a bias (good!); so, it seems to me that rather than cherry picking the recordings that YOU feel "set the mood" for the time, shouldn't those recordings be picked by others? Â "Sketches Of Spain": with everything that was going on in jazz in 1961, "setting the mood"? Â Seriously? Â |
Hampton Hawes music was like a breath of fresh air; when I say that, I mean no stereotypical cliches. A ten year prison sentence for a person who's on a self destruct mission, doesn't seem like a right bright thing to do by the judge, but that's the way it was. Since we have an epidemic at the moment, if they keep that up they are going to have to build a lot more prisons. Heroin addiction is not a musician exclusive thing, and from what I've seen up close and personal, music has nothing to do with it. Contrary to popular belief, it never helped their performance, nor did they believe it would. They used heroin for the same reason all the rest of the addicts used heroin; to feel good. That is until "Ma jones comin down on me". Enjoy the music. |
Fellow "Aficionados" I'm trying to get a feel for the recordings made in 1960, 61 and 62. I'm not going to provide links for these recordings because if you are a jazz aficionado, they should be in your collection, just pull them out and give a listen. First I want to establish the jazz mood for that period of time, next I want you to compare that to these "Grant Green" albums that I ordered which were not released, and I want you to give me your honest evaluation in regard to the mood at that time in regard to jazz in general. The question is, were these albums by Grant Green so out of step, that you, yourself would not release them if that was your decision to make. Remember, you are not comparing this album to that album, but the general mood of the jazz buying public, that is the question you're trying to answer. Since we've recently had a heated debate about this, they (the debaters) probably think I'm trying to win an argument, when all I'm trying to do, is get some valid answers, and there is no better way to get them than to ask anyone who reads this thread for the answer. Since there is a possibility you haven't heard the Grant Green, Sonny Clark albums, I'll provide them for you to compare with other prominent jazz musicians who put out albums at about that time. Disc 1 "Airegin" (Sonny Rollins) - 7:32 "It Ain't Necessarily So" (Gershwin, Gershwin) - 10:22 "I Concentrate on You" (Porter) - 5:48 "The Things We Did Last Summer" (Cahn, Styne) - 5:56 "The Song Is You" (Hammerstein II, Kern) - 7:46 "Nancy (With the Laughing Face)" (Van Heusen, Silvers) - 6:25 "Airegin" [Alternative Take] - 7:37 "On Green Dolphin Street" (Kaper, Washington) - 6:26 "Shadrack" (MacGimsey) - 6:23 "What Is This Thing Called Love?" (Porter) - 5:50 Disc two "Moon River" (Mancini, Mercer) - 5:37 "Gooden's Corner" - 8:14 "Two for One" - 7:41 "Oleo" (Sonny Rollins) – 5:37 "Little Girl Blue" (Hart, Rodgers) – 7:15 "Tune-Up" (Eddie Vinson) – 7:19 "Hip Funk" (Green) – 8:39 "My Favorite Things" (Hammerstein II, Rodgers) – 8:32 "Oleo" [Alternative Take] - 6:00 Personnel[edit] Grant Green - guitar Miles Davis 1961 "Sketches of Spain" and "Someday My Prince Will Come" Art Blakey and the messengers Lee Morgan, Bobby Timmons, Bennie Golson, Jymie Merit "Moanin, Blues March, and Along came Betty." John Coltrane 1961 John Coltrane — soprano and tenor saxophone Eric Dolphy — bass clarinet, alto saxophone McCoy Tyner — piano Reggie Workman — bass Jimmy Garrison — bass Elvin Jones — drums Garvin Bushell — probably cor anglais (described wrongly in the disc notes as an oboe),[7] contrabassoon Ahmed Abdul-Malik — probably tanpura (described wrongly in the disc notes as an oud)[7] Roy Haynes — drums 1961 village vanguard recordings Yusef Lateef 1961 recordings Eastern sounds I'm going to provide links for songs you're familiar with like : "It ain't Necesarily So"; "On Green Dolphin Street" , and "My Favorite Things" by Grant Green and Sonny Clark.           "It Ain't necessarily so"         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP1iyEUyHeI           "On Green Dolphin Street"        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgYNRz8y6R8           "MY Favorite Things"       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTD-4AozN5o Since everyone knows I'm biased, I don't get to vote or make a statement in regard to this. The question is, do you think this album would be acceptable to the jazz buying public at that time. Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Hampton Hawes -- HAMPTON HAWES TRIO VOL. 1 Another great one addicted to Heroin, dead at 48, and he didn't even record for BN.  Sentenced to 10 years in jail in Texas.  pardoned by JFK after 3 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8iSgxAZUtk the most https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_oMwwwOANI hamp's Seems to be a whole lot of in your face quoting on this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWxJeaTm8sg Great Player.. Cheers |
Jun.....I mean, Rok, in local vernacular you have "downtown", "midtown" and "uptown". Â each of those broad areas has smaller sub-areas with names such as The Village, Soho, Harlem. Â "Midtown" covers roughly 34st to 66st. Â The heart of midtown would be Times Square at 42st and Broadway, the area where the theater district is. Â Lincoln Center is at 62-66 Sts. Â "Uptown" would be the streets North of midtown all the way up to the 200's (below the Bronx). Â The center of Harlem would be at 125 St. "Downtown" refers to the streets Souh of midtown all the way to the bottom of Manhattan Island. Â That is, loosely, the geography. Â The three terms also have certain tacit meanings or implications as used locally and in the arts world. Â Moving "Uptown" used to mean that the person has "made it". Â Most of the expensive real estate is North of midtown (especially on the East side) but South of Harlem; although that's changing. Â "Downtown" is where the hipster are, the avant guard, the "new" music scene, also a lot of the jazz clubs. Â A person that is a very hip dresser and has a certain attitude can be said to look very downtown: or certain music can be said to have a downtown vibe. |
"Fuego" in Spanish, means fire, and this album is smoking; where there's smoke, there's fire. This album was recorded on October 4, 1959, at Rudy's studio; needles to say, when speaking of recordings, there is only one "Rudy". We have discussed Donald Byrd many times, and in different genres. While the music was different, it was always good; he's the consummate musician. He never played anything but "jazz" for the period it lasted, and that was a long time. When times changed, he changed. Where I'm coming from is so many musicians had to play R&B when jazz was where there hearts were, a guy has got to make a living; Donald Byrd never had to play anything but jazz for that long period of time. Back to "Fuego"; this is "hard bop" at it's best, even when you can't precisely define it, you know it when you hear it, when you hear those polished notes emanating from Byrd's trumpet at a race horse pace, you know you are off to the races. He has a supporting cast of Jackie McLean, alto sax; Duke Pearson, piano; Doug Watkins, bass, and Lex Humphries, drums. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktAPvHQmHIc Enjoy the music. |
After listening to Hyman play The Viper's Drag, reminded of this. Â I love this stuff. Â No video. Â Criminal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwl0uLA4jM4&index=17&list=PLU_nnz-RXpdgHDOHS3YswbyH6s-eDlDNx https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnbccXiTesI&list=PLU_nnz-RXpdgHDOHS3YswbyH6s-eDlDNx&index=16 The Frogman: What is meant by 'uptown' and 'downtown' in NYC? Great stuff with Hyman. Cheers |
Hank Mobley, "No Room For Squares": Somehow, I managed to squeeze into this room 😉 One of about one hundred of my favorite records which during a move and while temporarily laid on the floor, my Chihuahua "Max" chewed the spines of because he was pissed that he was being forced out of his comfy digs.  Original BN; great record and one of my favorite titles for a jazz record.  Wanted to kill the little bastard and kinda wish Rok's cat had been around.  Max is no longer with us......natural causes 😥 For me, if a tenor player had to be picked as being the "eye of the storm" of jazz, it would be Mobley.  What I mean is that he is, to my ears, squarely (pun) and very comfortably right in the middle between the swing tenor tradition and the post-hardbop Coltrane infused style.  Harmonically hip and sophisticated without getting too far out or with the sense that he was always reaching like Joe Henderson; a sense that he was comfortable just where he was with his vocabulary.  Warm tone without the modern edge.  Love his playing. Nice clip, O-10; thanks.  And thanks for making think of Max. |
The exploiter could have made a lot more money, if he had taken better care of the "exploitee" Even a parasite knows that he must not do anything to harm the host; he must keep the host alive. In this case the exploiter wasn't too bright. Super talented people don't fall out of trees, and there were people at Blue Note who could have, and would have been more productive if the "parasite" who didn't play one instrument had realized that the host must be kept alive. It's better to ignore this post, than respond to it; does anyone remember "Before the beat, or after the beat" |
Dick Hyman: Great clips. Â Monster musician! Â Hero of the NYC music scene. Â To my way of thinking, excepting the classical conducting, everything that Andre Previn is, but at an even higher level. Â Great jazz player leaning to the more traditional or swing jazz side of things. Â Great composer; wrote many of the scores for Woody Allen films and, among still others, for one of my favorite movies "Moonstruck". Â Jazz historian known for his mastery, as a player, of all different jazz styles. Â Anyone interested in learning about the subject of jazz piano styles and jazz styles in general needs to check this series out; absolutely fascinating: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QF5sghM6Xto https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X6tMTIhXkZM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Beqtczz99Sw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rFnqgi3CR0g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ym4fYYY7Ryc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oay3mlrgptk |
I put every single CD I own by "Grant Green" on my computer play list; I went to sleep listening to Grant Green, I woke up just now Listening to Grant Green; just think of what I'll be able to do when I receive;"Grant Green: The Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark". I'll be able to re-live those glorious times when I saw him live. (he looked a lot different then) Lean, mean, Grant Green, with a head of thick black hair, playing his heart out; that man was born to pluck that guitar, I can hear it ringing in my ears. Music, music, sweet sweet music; it feeds my soul, it gets me through days like this when all of the "aficionados" are throwing rocks at me; I'm so hurt, they don't like me; well you know what, "My heart pumps purple panther piss for them" HA, HA, HA, HA. You know what, I haven't heard any "hard bop" in awhile, I think I'll see if "you tube" got "No Room For Squares", that means I can't take the rest of the "aficionados" with me because there ain't room; HA, HA, HA, Â Â Â Â Â https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcq_zg-Zw5k I bought this record brand new when it came out; it got 5 stars, and with a line up like this, it should have gotten 6 stars, but they only give 5; can you dig it Frogman? Every individual on this jam is a star in his own right. All I can say is; Enjoy the music. |
If you had not made this such a circus, we would have discussed Grant Green's music, posted a few you tubes and moved on, all the while thinking he was a very nice player who made some good records. Instead, i'm beginning to really dislike the guy.  Now that I know of his drug addiction, I see him in an all together different light.  Drug use means he was not very smart.  Don't have much use for people that squander talent like he did. Reminds me of a current situation in sports.  A football player from Mississippi was projected to be drafted in the top Five of the NFL draft.  Before the draft, a video of the player smoking dope appears on the internet.  Instead of top five, he gets drafted 13th.  The people in the know, say this means he lost Eight million dollars.  A poor guy who probably never had two dimes to rub together, just threw 8 million out the window.  Laugh or cry.  Your choice Now he is trying to find out who posted the video.  Not, kicking his own ass for smoking, esp on camera, but looking for someone else to  blame for his stupidity. Typical of weak minded stupid people.  It's never their fault.  It's the CIA, Blue Note, KGB, the Trilateral Commission even, BUT NEVER them. So, instead of thinking he was right up there with Wes and Benson, I see him as just another junkie. He got off his sick bed and went to NYC to record, not to pay his rent, not because he loved music, but because he needed a fix.  Pathetic. Seems as if Prince might be dead for the same reason. You should be running low on Kool Aid by now. Cheers |
From the time that I started posting on this thread I have expressed the opinion that there is a danger to the music lover in losing sight of a certain degree of objectivity in evaluating not only the music, but also issues related to the music. Music lovers tend to over-romanticize the music, the musicians and the process of making music. "Process" is the operative word. There is a lot about this process that is very mundane and, if you will, technical. We want our precious music to be solely the product of inspiration and emotion. There’s more to the process than that. This tendency to over-romanticize and to be resistant to understanding the.....here it is.....the much ridiculed (by some) nuts and bolts of the process not only ironically clouds our ultimate potential to fully understand and enjoy the depth of the beauty of the music, it can also cause us to make all sorts of unfounded assumptions about the process and to see boogy-men where there are none. This absurd and long running Grant Green and his unreleased recordings saga is a perfect example. So much has been made and speculated here about the reasons why some of his recordings were not released in a supposedly timely fashion. The OP has a very personal and romantic take on the situation and appears to be convinced that Green was a victim of greedy record label executives and has even insinuated that these executives deliberately fed this musician’s drug habit in an effort to exploit him. That the OP loves Green’s music is a beautiful thing. That the rose-colored glasses that he looks at everything Green through keep him from having a more realistic take on which of Green’s recordings have merit and which don’t is not. However, as concerns the issue of the release of recordings, he is so hell bent on believing that Green was a victim that he overlooks the most obvious. Personally, this is so obvious that it didn’t even occur to me to look at this aspect of the issue assuming that a true Grant Green-file like the OP would surely have done his homework; but, no, he prefers the romance of the "exploited artist" and fan (O-10). Acman3, don’t feel badly about not checking facts, your premise is correct; it is the important backdrop to the facts and your mention of the facts is what caused me to take a look at them more closely. The OP makes much to do about the facts. Since it is the Christian thing to do lets do the work for him and look at the facts (per Green’s Bluenote discography on Wiki); it may even put an end to this insanity: Green recorded 6 records in 1961 - 2 were released that year Green recorded 6 records in 1962 - 0 were released that year. But, wait!. 2 were released that were recorded in 1961. Green recorded 3 records in 1963 - 2 were released that were recorded in 1962. Green recorded 4 records in 1964 - 2 were released that were recorded in 1963. Green recorded 1 record in 1965 - 2 were released that were recorded in 1963. Do I need to go on? Is it not obvious? CONTRACT, CONTRACT, CONTRACT, CONTRACT, CONTRACT, no conspiracy, no boogy-men; CONTRACT. Green’s 2 year contract with Blue Note called for the recording of 6 records and the release of 2 records per year. In 1963 his new contract called for the recording of 3 records and still the release of two. By 1965 Blue Note had 11 (!!!!) unreleased recordings by Green including Green’s first (1960) which wasn’t released till much later. What the hell is BN supposed to do with all that material? There was probably a provision in the contract that stipulated that these would be USA releases. BN determined, for business AND ARTISTIC reasons, that the U.S. market could absorb only two recordings per year and, I am sure, were also concerned with the issue of overexposure for the artist. They chose the recordings that they felt were THE BEST for the U.S. market and later released the others in what is called a secondary market (Japan) where it’s possible the U.S. releases were not available. Then, on top of all that, we get to Acman3’s (and mine) premise; the backdrop to all the previous: By 1963 Miles had recorded "KOB" and "Seven Steps To Heaven" and Coltrane had recorded "Giant Steps" and that very year 1963 saw the release of his "Impressions"; jazz would not be the same again. As great as a Green was his style of hard bop was being supplanted by something else and probably the reason that by the third year he was required to record half as many records.  What does he do? He tries to go the new soul/funk-jazz way. The rest is history and has been discussed here and beaten to death. The ridiculous "junky" issue: The OP obviously has no clue what a tremendous liability it is for a record company to have drug addicts on its catalog. The cost of a junkie not showing up for a recording session is tremendous. The studio and personnel as well as the other musicians still need to get paid; and that is just the tip of the iceberg. As Rok so succinctly put it: "get over it". |
I was listening to Sonny Clark and Grant Green playing "Airgin", this is one of Grants favorite tunes; he played that for himself. I say that because before he went to Blue Note, I saw him at a club he went to informally, and played his guitar when he felt like it. There was no admission and me and my jazz buddies really dug Grant, naturally we were there. His guitar certainly sounds nice with him and Sonny Clark; I was trying to see if I could remember when he played it back then, and the difference I'm hearing now. It's much more complex on this recording; the difference in time from then until now is not that great, now is 1961 and then was 1958; that's only 3 years but what a difference playing for yourself, and playing with guys of Sonny Clark's caliber would make. The comments made by the peanut gallery rolled off my back like water off a duck. I'm listening to the real deal, "Grant Green", and he was idolized by us, just as much as Miles Davis. We never talked to Miles because he was in New York. They might as well say Miles is from New York, I only saw him at a show in Chicago. When he came to St. Louis on a visit, he stayed out at his fathers farm, he never came out to socialize and have a drink. Naturally I feel closer to someone's music that I actually talked to, and heard up close and personal. Now don't misunderstand, I'm still a jazz "aficionado" and judging this music at the same time I'm listening to it. I don't say it's boss simply because I heard Grant live; but because it is. Although I talked to Grant, I can't say that I knew him, because that would mean we were friends, and seeing someone and talking to them is a long way from being friends; consequently, I'm giving this music my 'aficionado' judgment. Right now I'm listening to "you tube", but this music will soon be in my collection. The fact that it's not in my collection is what hurts; it should have been in my collection from the time he made it. What I'm listening to at the moment has Sonny Clark piano; Sam Jones, bass; Art Blakey or Louis Hayes, drums, and of course Grant Green guitar. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFzKG6bIwJQ&list=PLC629098E62874E5F&index=7 Now I can only get whatever they offer, when at that time I could have gotten an individual record, and not missed anything; but this is better than nothing. Enjoy the music. |
Hank Mobley recorded "No Room For Squares" on October 2, 1963 at Rudy Van Gelder's studio. Lee Morgan; trumpet Andrew Hill; piano John Ore; Bass Philly Joe Jones; drums Donald Byrd recorded "At The Half note Cafe" with Pepper Adams, baritone sax; Duke Pearson, piano; Lex Humphries, drums; Laymon Jackson, bass in November 1960; that's two months from 1961. Frogman, I saw Trane at Gino's in St. Louis in 1963, and he was blowing a soprano sax, not a "tenor" sax. He played "My Favorite Things" much longer than what you hear on his album. Grant Greens music would have been right on time; now come back to me with your YA YA. Enjoy the music. |
Acman, how do you know that? could you share your new found knowledge with me? No you can't, because you are dead 200% wrong. llMusic Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine [-] Mosaic released a four-disc box set titled The Complete Blue Note With Sonny Clark in 1991, rounding up everything that the guitarist and pianist recorded together between 1961 and 1962. Blue Note's 1997 version of the set, The Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark, trims Mosaic's collection by two discs, offering only the quartet sessions (the Ike Quebec sessions, Born to Be Blue and Blue and Sentimental, are available on individual discs). In some ways, this actually results in a more unified set, since it puts Green and Clark directly in the spotlight, with no saxophone to complete for solos, but it doesn't really matter if the music is presented as this double-disc set, the four-disc box, or the individual albums -- this is superb music, showcasing the guitarist and pianist at their very best. All of the sessions are straight-ahead bop but the music has a gentle, relaxed vibe that makes it warm, intimate, and accessible. Grant and Clark's mastery is subtle -- the music is so enjoyable, you may not notice the deftness of their improvisation and technique -- but that invests the music with the grace, style, and emotion that distinguishes The Complete Quartets. Small group hard bop rarely comes any better than this. Those records were made between 61 and 62, when they were the market; that was when "straight up jazz" was king; no "soul jazz" no "hip hop jazz" but straight up "hard bop jazz"; the kind Miles Davis is famous for. Do You know who "Sonny Clark" is? Enjoy the music. |
Acman3, I agree with you. Â I said essentially the same thing a while ago. Â My question is DID they "sell big"? Â I don't know. Â I can tell you that in many parts of the entertainment industry "trial runs" are done outside of the U.S. in order to see if the project is commercially viable. Â It is cheaper to do so outside the U.S. Â This goes to the other parts of your comment. Â Why did they record him? Â Contracts. Â A contract guarantees an artist a certain # of recordings; or, at least, mandates that he record a certain number of records. Â |
O-10, IMHO,The reason Mr. Green's material was only released in Japan was that was the only place where the material would sell big. The market in the U.S. was changing, and not in the direction of Grant Green. Sad but true. No matter how good or bad, it was deemed not marketable by Blue Note. The masses speak volumes with their wallets. The bigger question was, Why then did they record Grant Green? To keep them at Blue Note? To give them a payday? I don't know. I am just glad the guy's at Mosaic found them and released them, so people who wanted more Grant Green would be able to hear him. |
Rok, I don't think it was as much an outrage as the Grant Green outrage; not only was he denied what was due him for producing the music, I was denied the pleasure of having those records in my collection, I was denied the pleasure of listening to some of his best music. He was one of the very few artists that I had met and talked to, he was one of the very few artists that I had seen live many times; to be denied the pleasure of listening to his records was an injustice to me personally. Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Dick Hyman -- MUSIC OF 1937 Â (maybeck recital vol three) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgJaGssX1Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aXCy7yu0Rw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyJm7pEPDqw Isn't it amazing how the good stuff never ages or sounds dated. Â Not too familiar with Hyman, or why I came to buy this disc. He can play. Â Although he is banned in Japan, a few LPs managed to swim the Pacific and get there. Â One of the greatest outrages in the history of Jazz. Cheers |
O-10, I have no way of knowing (and I’m not sure you do either) whether the records you speak of (and yes, I know what lps are, I have 3500 of them) where actually released, or whether they are copies that, as I tried (in vain) to describe to you previously, can survive a move by the record co. to stop release (Prince’s "Black Album"). However, perhaps this may mean something to you; it does to me: In 1991, I toured Japan with a major symphony orchestra (first of seven trips there). A colleague who was also going on this tour had setup for himself a minor "business" of bringing along two or three flutes in order to sell to a dealer in Japan with whom he had a relationship. At the risk of alarming the pc crowd, I will point out that Japanese collectors are a unique breed; they are passionate about collecting musical instruments and records (among other things). I cannot directly speak to the records side of all this, but I can tell you from direct experience that they will pay considerably more for a musical instrument than what it will fetch in the USA; not because it is a superior, or even a good instrument, but simply because it may be a certain vintage, a certain serial number that completes a series, was manufactured on the same day that the Japanese prime minister farted in public, etc, Long story short: I was able to sell an instrument that was inferior and mediocre at best for $8100 when it would have fetched about $4500 in the states. Why? Because he already had instruments in the serial#2000 series and in the #4000 series; none in the #3000 series like mine. Extrapolate from this what you will. Not much, I suspect. Btw, who exactly says they were Green’s best? Somebody who happens to post on the Internet? Seriously? What does O-10 think? And since you insist on debating the issue, more importantly, why are they his best? I know what I think. |
Frogman, the subject is "records"; they are those black disks we used to play before CD's, remember them? They were supposed to have been unfit for release. Now we find they were among the best Grant Green ever made. If they had been released here in the United States, Grant Green might still be alive, he was just a little older than me, and I'm still kicking, unless this is a ghostwriter post. He left his hospital bed, against the doctor's orders, to perform, because he needed the money. Now you and Rok argued that since Blue Note's bottom line was money, if the records had been any good they would have been released; now we find they were released for "Japanese" consumption. Apparently Blue Note's bottom line, and Grant Green's bottom line were not in harmony. Now I know you and Rok want to move on. After you and Rok respond with some sensible answers we can move on; but I'm not going to gloss over the injustice that Grant Green suffered. Enjoy the music |
Jon Hendricks: Why on earth would it suffer the same fate as the Bey Sisters?  Great stuff indeed.  Rok, you may not recall, but I posted that very Freddie Freeloader clip a couple of years ago (!).  And, coincidentally and if memory serves, I posted some Manhattan Transfer in my comments about The Bey Sisters around the same time; we must have been on a vocal group binge at the time.  Great clips.  Jon Hendricks kills me. BTW,  re Benson's singing: one of the reasons that he rose and became a star in the soul/jazz guitar scene and Green lost some steam; imo.  There is a long tradition of vocalists taking improvised instrumental solos and scatting them and/or putting lyrics to them.  Manhattan Transfer's rendition of Coleman Hawkins' famous solo on "Body And Soul", long considered one of the milestone recorded jazz solos (and available here as well as Japan : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SAqUNlWUxlA ****Since you and Rok are in lockstep.....**** Horrors!  I don't think so.  When I can get Rok to agree with me about the sound of audio cables....then, maybe 😄.  O-10, it's simpy called respect and confidence in one's opinions.  You can join the party anytime. |
Frogman, you might as not even read my post, because you write anything you want anyway, that has no relation to my post. My last post was about "records"; those are the things that existed before CD's were invented. They were in Japan before Grant Green died; they were in the hands of Japanese collectors, while fans like me were unaware of their very existence, how do you explain that? We did not know about their existence till after Grant Green was dead and long buried. Now I guess you and Rok will give me a perfectly good explanation that will include Prince, Elvis, Miles, Chuck Berry, and you might as well throw in the Pope. Now you say you're not concerned about records when that's exactly what my post was about. Since you and Rok are in lockstep, you can answer for him. I saw Grant Green the person many times, I even talked to him face to face, I liked his music very much, I should have been able to purchase his records; they should have been in my collection, not some Japanese collection. The question is why? Why were they not available for purchase in the United States where the man lived and died, where Rok who is so patriotic that if I say anything that might hint at failure of the government is all over me, but he doesn't see anything wrong with records that were not made available to citizens of this country, but were made available to citizens of Japan. Enjoy the music. |
Ok, O-10, lets play; if you insist.  Remember, as I said before, "don't expect silence when there is disrespect directed at a dissenting opinion".  Now, I realize that you need this bizarre interaction for reasons that only your shrink can figure out (although I have some pretty good ideas); so, let's just say I'm trying to help you out.  Let's go slowly and step by step for the sake of clarity: I have tremendous respect for Alex and his contributions here, so.... ****neither one of you completely responded to Alex's post**** - How exactly did I not respond to Alex's post?  What part of his post did I not address?  With specifics please. ****and now you don't respond to mine, **** Seriously?  Your posts can be so convoluted and confused that it's practically impossible to respond to them.  However, as I see it, I responded in a perfectly clear way to what I believe is the heart of the matter re this ridiculous Grant Green business.  I will try it one last time.  My thoughts about Green; in a nutshell: Really good guitar player who was, I would say, a significant influence on players like Wes Montgomery and George Benson; players who would go on to be the highest profile guitar players in the emerging funk/soul-jazz movement.  For a variety of reasons, his recordings toward the end of his career where not, in my opinion, on the same level as his classics.  Overall, as has been pointed out, not a "game changer" in the overall scheme of the music. - So, how is any of that "a lie"?  A strange claim for someone who so often hides behind the "subjectivity" smoke screen. - If by "lie" you refer to the issue of which records were released, when, which made it to Japan, etc. I am frankly not interested in those details.  As usual you sadly miss an opportunity to learn something about the music that is much more important:  what is it that defines a truly great musician?  what does it mean to have had an influence on the music?  what is influence?  what is it that shapes careers in music?  what is it the sustains careers in music?  how does the world of the music business work?  Oh, yeah....and, God forbid....what is it that some listeners don't like about Green’s later records and why?  - Why the leaning on positive "reviews" by some unknown writer somewhere in the e-universe?  Who cares?  If you will give so much weight to these, why do you dismiss the ones critical of Green's late recordings? As has been said before, be confident with your opinions, respect those of others; and,  if you really want to do something productive, try and understand why some may disagree with you. Lastly, I would like to bring up an issue that I have refrained from bringing up for quite some time out of.....yes, you heard it here, O-10.....respect for you as the OP.  However, you have done such a good job of eroding any semblence of adherence to the notion of respect that....what the hell!  It also goes to some comments I made recently that, in retrospect, I probably should not have made; but, like the guy hitting his head on the wall, well....sometimes the absurdity of it all is simply too much to take.  I refer to the incongruesness and a kind of contradiction in the use of the word "aficionado" in conjunction with "jazz".  I have always found it to be a rather curious choice of words for the subject at hand.  From my vantage point, the main fuel for these ridiculous arguments is your insistence on personalizing matters; not only with your "hits below the belt" (disrespect), but also with your emphasis on "personal" accounts about musicians.  These "personal" accounts are often peppered with words and phrases intended to evoke a certain feeling of closeness to and supposed experience and familiarity with the musicians and their culture; phrases like "phaking the phunk", "dis here", "jam", "boss", "gitin down", and many more like them.  But, here's the curious thing:  jazz musicians don't talk like that.  What is this about?  I will concede that perhaps these are simply O-10'isms and nothing more; but, curious nonetheless.  Please enlighten me. I realize  that I have thrown a lot your way.  A lot of things to address, but you wanted to play.  I am confident that if you take it step by step you can do it.  I know you can. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx9xO98kcBU |
You two "Snarky Puppies" are not fooling anybody; you use to speak for Learsfool, now you're speaking for Rok, and neither one of you completely responded to Alex's post, and now you don't respond to mine, when all I'm trying to do is get the lies in regard to Grant Green's music straight so that I can buy the right CD's. When I show you a review of the disputed music, you say I'm running a Grant Green fan club, when all I want is just a little friendly advice. Enjoy the music. |
I asked this guy "qdrone" what stuff to avoid buying by Grant Green because he said it was inferior. This is what he posted 01-23-2011 at 1:29PM; Qdrone, could you name the stuff to avoid, I would like to buy it. qdrone 799 posts 01-23-2011 1:29pm Anything that says never released or only released in Japan. Or in box sets where you have newly discovered tracks (Mosiac has one or two sets with Green) I actualy posted for everyone to understand the times these recordings were made,heroin was problem among many musicians,I'm sorry that your so full of yourself that you thought i was just responding to you. Maybe "Qdrone" changed his moniker, or left, I haven't seen him in a long time; but that was stuff to avoid. llMusic Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine [-] Mosaic released a four-disc box set titled The Complete Blue Note With Sonny Clark in 1991, rounding up everything that the guitarist and pianist recorded together between 1961 and 1962. Blue Note's 1997 version of the set, The Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark, trims Mosaic's collection by two discs, offering only the quartet sessions (the Ike Quebec sessions, Born to Be Blue and Blue and Sentimental, are available on individual discs). In some ways, this actually results in a more unified set, since it puts Green and Clark directly in the spotlight, with no saxophone to complete for solos, but it doesn't really matter if the music is presented as this double-disc set, the four-disc box, or the individual albums -- this is superb music, showcasing the guitarist and pianist at their very best. All of the sessions are straight-ahead bop but the music has a gentle, relaxed vibe that makes it warm, intimate, and accessible. Grant and Clark's mastery is subtle -- the music is so enjoyable, you may not notice the deftness of their improvisation and technique -- but that invests the music with the grace, style, and emotion that distinguishes The Complete Quartets. Small group hard bop rarely comes any better than this. Collapse ↑ User Reviews Rok, and Frogman, we seem to have some contradiction here; could you guys help me out, I don't know what to do. Somewhere I saw the Mosaic sets were the ones to own, but Qdrone said these were the ones to avoid, because "junky" Grant Green had made inferior music that could not be released, and he got that from very reliable sources. Now we find all that music "walked" to Japan; is that right Rok? That was the music that you said was not released, and what's the problem everybody has music that wasn't released. My way of saying, that if GAME CHANGERS, like Prince, The Beatles and probably every artist that has ever recorded, including Elvis, Chuck Berry and Miles, can have unreleased material, what is the big deal about a run of the mill R&G guitar player from St Louis having the same? Now I am really confused; someone said avoid the inferior junky music, meaning the Mosaic boxed sets, someone else says "So what", I'm still saying the same thing I said on 01-23-2011, and I'm still trying to track that music down so I can buy it. Enjoy the music. |
****Today there was a crisis here in my home. 'Our' cat that has set up homestead in our back yard, cleaned out his bowl of food, and then walked right out into the yard and killed a bird at the bird bath. My wife wants to kill the cat. i asked, why? She was just doing what cats do. They kill things. That's what they do. If she was bigger, she would kill us.**** Like a welcomed and well timed few beats of silence in the middle of a very busy trumpet (I don't dare say guitar) solo, my nomination for best post of the last few days 😜 |
Once again, grounded and significant exchange of ideas seems to get foiled by the tendency to want to take sides in a discussion/debate so as to somehow garner supporters. Alex, as usual, makes some very good, reasonable and evenhanded comments; there is nothing that he wrote re Grant Green that I can disagree with. Moreover, as I interpret his comments, I don’t see that he is coming out in anybody’s favor. He can, of course speak for himself on that point; although it’s not really that important. I see nothing in what he wrote that buttresses O-10’s comments about Green that have been the cause of the disagreement. I have repeatedly said that he was a great player, but that his later recordings were not as good as his classics. Rok has said essentially the same thing. Neither of us has said that he wasn’t an important player. I don’t want to speak for him, and only as way of example, but Rok’s comment was simply that he wasn’t THAT important that he was a game changer. I agree, although I believe that he was, in fact, an influential player. Why this opinion about this player should cause such a disturbance is what is, in fact, most ridiculous of all. So, why keep the commentary in a "me against them" kind of realm? I have said this countless times: there can be disagreement without disrespect if everyone is comfortable and confident in their opinions. Just don’t expect silence when disrespect is directed towards a dissenting opinion. What is this "true aficionado" (or not) branding bullshit? It will lead to nothing positive and is precisely the kind of thing that keeps things mired in negativity. I find it ironic that a music that is so replete with subtlety and nuance should receive so little of the same by some of the commentary here. Why does it have to mean when someone says "I don’t like recording x by artist z" that everything else by the artist is thought to be no good? A ridiculous and very sophomoric notion. The post before this one says it all in my opinion; how pathetic.  As always, I hope we can do better. |