Jazz for aficionados

If course it is. Unless, of course, you believe that every nuance and aspect of a person that can be attributed to his heritage, can be completely erased. I don’t. Besides, the musical proof is there to be heard.

Jazz is not related to Africa, but people called "African Americans".

While I am making absolutely NO judgment, one way or the other, about what I think you seem to be suggesting, I need to point out that when I responded "No way", in my mind I was going in a totally different direction. I would suggest that, were O-10’s comment about "beating Africa out...", true there would be no jazz as we know it; for one thing.

**** while slavery beat the Africa out of the Africans ****

Thank you Jesus !!      IF, only it were true. :(

You realize blacks came to Cuba via Slavery.

Do you realize some folks in inner-city America think Slavery ended the year before they were born?   Easy and painless way to explain away all their failures.

I have Afrocubism will have to listen to it today.

Cheers

**** Universal World Blues ****

My point precisely. That is the most beautiful thing about music; no matter the country of origin it ultimately goes to the same place in all us. We tend to forget or fight that truth and sometimes want to make music OUR music; and ours only.

**** while slavery beat the Africa out of the Africans ****

No way. Maybe a little (or a lot, depending on one’s point of view), but I’m not African American and I would leave that call to one who is.

Had a feeling you would like "Afrocubism".

Fourwinds, that "Bobby Hutcherson" I posted that you liked, gets more repeat play than any other Bobby Hutcherson in my collection.


Enjoy the music.

The only relationship the Cuban Blues has to American Blues is the same relationship they both have to the Universal World Blues.

This music is about as "authentic" as any music can get; Cubans didn't have to reach back to Africa because it came to Cuba and never left; while slavery beat the Africa out of the Africans. I know you remember "Roots" and Kunta Kente. "My name is Kunta Kente!" Yo name is "Toby" now! Well, anybody who saw "Roots" know's how that argument got settled.

I'll have to listen to a lot more of this music, and get back to you Frogman.

Wonderful feeling in this collaboration between musicians from Cuba and Mali. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sVQ6sOxgekY

Cuban blues (no different, in my book):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUpp8RDosc

Orpheus10, thanks for the Bobby Hutcherson recommendation. I first heard this record when the guy I bought my current table from put it on. I haven't been able to remember the title. But it did prompt me to pick up another record by him one day crate digging. It's Solo/Quartet, side one is a slice of Bobby by himself that is recorded wonderfully with layer upon layer of harmonic and tonal bliss. A 1982 recording but don't let that dissuade you. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qAJqCPDVePU

Rok, that LP was released in 1964, and that only tells you "partially" how timeless this music is; I remember hearing some of this music going back to the mid 50's; good music never get old.

That always looking for something new, was a real "bummer"; and I don't mean like just looking for some new jazz that I hadn't heard, but it had to be the latest up to date jazz.

When I found, or was recommended what was the latest, it sounded more like the "lostest" to me. Now, I just let it happen without regard for when it was recorded but whether or not I like it. I know that most of the time the music falls in the category of "jazz jazz", but it's still new to me because there was so much good music recorded, that it was impossible to have collected it all, and now I'm just catching up. This is not to say that the latest has to always be out of shape, but I won't change my shape to suit it's shape.

Maybe in the next life time I'll come up to date, and get the music that's current; but for now, just getting the music that sounds good will suffice.


Enjoy the music.

Guaraldi & Sete:    Taste of Honey

Loved it.

Cheers

I'm listening to something right now that's the answer to one of Ghosthouse's questions; it was about "Taste of Honey" by "Vince Guaraldi" . This LP is titled "Vince Guaraldi and Bola Sete"; they are the one's I'm downloading; the one's I bought before CD, never bought anything but CD's after that. This LP is boss, it doesn't contain the "original" Taste of Honey.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7R6UoOkF6M

Rok, I just ran across another vocalist who was perfect for the music he sang; "King Pleasure", the artist who was hot in the early 50's I think it was, he was on radio and the jukeboxes at that time. You can find him on "you tube"

I discovered why you never heard about him; he was "lazy", and only worked when he felt like it.

Frogman, since I'm not qualified to voice an expert opinion in re to classical music, I'll accept your expert opinion as the final word on Wynton's classical "virtuosity".

It's always about the song, never the singer, and no one knows that better than Ella; she's always so appropriate, never scatting when it's not called for.

I think they're perfect, the way they capture the essence of each song they sing; "Moanin" for example.

Today's Appetizer:

Lambert, Hendricks, & Ross -- THE HOTTEST NEW GROUP IN JAZZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MYgESId8bM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0TwYX7MTZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyBvSWlMj5k 

Great concept.   I think they needed more voices.  Esp female.

Cheers

Well, "Aficionados", while I began this journey to constantly learn, and acquire new things, (which I did) I've also learned to appreciate what I already have, and I would like to touch on that.

In the beginning, I acquired "Moods" (Gene Harris) by the "Three Sounds", and I liked it a lot. Today, I'm listening to "Moods"; it's the very same one I acquired over 50 years ago, but it sounds so much better now, primarily because I can hear it better and appreciate it more.

I'm listening to the very same "Gene Harris" as I heard then, but he sounds so much better now. (an upgrade in equipment certainly doesn't hurt) but the ability to listen more intently increases one's awareness of the best music, by the best artist. He didn't just acquire that delicacy of touch, he had it back then; I'm just appreciating it more, now.

When I think about all the records I have, and the artists that I may not have listened to intently enough, it lets me know what I'll be doing in the immediate future. If you have an "epiphany" regarding some artist or record (CD), please share it.


Enjoy the music.

Beautiful trumpet playing. Wynton at his best:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pbvodHcDDqY

https://youtu.be/inED9IicIpc

Miles just didn't want to go gentle into that Jazz good night.   But as the great Joe Louis once said, "who do?"

Cheers

Sticks and Stones may break Wynton's bones, but statements based on envy and jealously, from aged, over the hill Acid-heads, dressed liked a character out of Arabian Nights, will never hurt him.   The same applies to disgruntled 'Aficionados'.

Cheers

In regard to Wynton we are saying the same thing in between the lines.


In regard to jazz, "subjectivity" is always a factor.


Gene Harris grew into a national treasure, and nobody told me;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNIVdnz1FQ


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odkIpuRKkko



Enjoy the music.

O-10, I don’t believe that’s the case at all, that quotes about Wynton are misunderstood. It’s very clear to anyone who is a at least a moderately astute jazz listener understands what Miles meant. That, as I said, and you reiterated, Wynton is a great trumpet player, but simply not a great jazz player; especially as a young man. Anyone who can’t appreciate what a great trumpet player Wynton is has no business commenting on music, imo. Wynton’s cred as a trumpet player was not questioned. Remember, a big reason for why he made such a big splash initially was because of the Classical music recordings made in conjunction with the jazz recordings. Pretty impressive by any measure. He has grown a lot as a player since that record was recorded and I think it’s important to be fair and reasonable about a person who is so important in the jazz world. Miles’ quote goes to the core of what is jazz: you’ve got to be saying something in your solo. To my ear he does this best with the Louis Armstrong and Ellington style material.

You are correct about the different moods re Blakey/Peterson, but I don’t see what subjectivity has to do with anything. Mood doesn’t factor in when a "best of", "album of the year", Grammy, etc. is awarded. The criteria used are more general or objective than that. Let’s put it this way: you go to the fruit shop and you see a mealy overripe apple and a perfect juicy and firm orange. Is it not fair to say that the orange is a better piece of fruit?

Quotes on Wynton Marsalis are the most misunderstood in the world because they always come out as Wynton can't blow the trumpet. No one, not even Miles ever said that; what they said was; when you give Wynton a blank sheet of paper, he can't put some jazz on it, but he can blow the notes off any piece of paper with some jazz already on it; that's a big difference.  While they never used those exact words, that's what they meant.

The music on "Nigerian Market Place" has such a different mood than Blakey's, it's almost like comparing apples and oranges. This music is so "subjective", that I don't think any one person can make such a "definitive" statement; after all, jazz is not a one size fits all.


Enjoy the music.

Great example of why many have said that young Wynton, and to quote Miles, "ain’t saying shit". To be fair, the same can be said of all the horn players on these cuts. Also to be fair, and to give some credit where credit is due, 1981 was a time when many wondered where jazz was headed and whether it was dead, and a lot of the young lions’ brand of "retro" jazz was welcomed by the jazz traditionalists as a sign that there was still hope. The problem was that the real hope was in the new directions that jazz was taking. Blakey’s band was always a training ground for young players and here it sounds just like that; a training ground. Beautiful and impressive trumpet playing with lots of fireworks by Wynton, but where’s the jazz? Where’s the story? Don’t want to just blindly bash, but I don’t hear it. I will say that his jazz playing has grown more convincing over the years, but still not on the level of his many other talents. I have always felt Bobby Watson was a very overrated player. "Album of the year"? Really? Compared to this from the same year?::

https://youtu.be/zJplKSrRbxQ

Today's Listen:

Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers -- ALBUM OF THE YEAR

Two tunes written by the OP's favorite Jazz players.  Parker and Timmons.

Such a beautiful cover art photo.   Why are my copies always different, and look like crap.   Well at least on my CD it says "Featuring Wynton Marsalis" :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opfLwlbT4lo   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTRorrBC-I  

Cheers

That was certainly not Stanley's best, but it had a few good cuts, and once I'm through down loading, the TT goes back in "mothballs"; no more vinyl, only what's in the PC Library.

As far as the title; there was a "love and lost" quality to the music, which could result in a sad face, but at the same time the music was reminiscing about the kind of love that comes once in a lifetime, and can never be forgotten; the kind of love Carly Simon sings about.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wta3xkqJo&list=PLhdtRc6oo2tH-CLPL8onHcKSeGAsxFxuU


Stanley had a long and very productive career, and there were later dramatic changes in his life that was reflected in his music, but it wasn't nearly as "disco" influenced, as Benson's music.

I think the music on this album reflected the title, and how he was feeling at that time; no one is perpetually "upbeat".


Enjoy the music.

Nice Lou Rawls,  All around agreement re Lou Rawls.  What a voice and what style! I'm sure Rok would approve of the impression that whatever he sings has the feeling of the blues.  Great singer. 

I love Stanley Turrentine and have posted quite a bit of his stuff.  I'm afraid that "The Man WTSF" doesn't do it for me.  Beautiful and very distinctive tenor playing style; sexiest tenor sound ever.  I'm afraid that "The Man With The Sad Face" just doesn't do it for me.  IMO, this was the  low point in his recording career and the reason that there was so much criticism around that time of the move by him, Benson and others to that style of over-produced "disco-jazz"; in a word, saccharine.  Everything that I don't like about much of the CTI stuff,  on steroids.  Might there be some hidden meaning in that title? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v-rtDIbCZTk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GLP9osh3Z1g

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2HWKdQEnfcI

It's for sure that "Lou" was our favorite male vocalist; I had gotten so use to his voice that it seemed like an old friend was singing to me, plus I could relate to the songs he sang; "Street of Dreams", is one of them.

This place was my last "hangout"; that's when your nights for hanging are coming to an end, and the other folks in the joint were in the same boat with me; they knew that the good times for enjoying the night life would soon be over, but it was on the street of dreams.


                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kw6khrGLr4


 


Well folks, I'm having fun doing my thing this morning, which is choosing records to down load to the PC library. Yesterday it was "The Man With The Sad Face" by Stanley T; I thought it was pretty good. If I find it on "you tube", I'll post it for your approval.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzpe5XD-RMg


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzBEvR7wa-0


This might be one you can add to your collection if you like it. "You Tube" is a life saver; no longer is it necessary to be disappointed if you can't find current jazz you like, that's because there is more good "old jazz" than you got time to hear that you haven't heard before.


Enjoy the music.

***** What do you think about him and Rachelle Ferrell on the same show?*****

I would rather see and hear Lou Rawls by himself.  My vote for one of the all time greats.

I did see him once in D.C.    A lifetime ago.

Cheers

Lou Rawls seems like an old friend because he sings about the Chicago I knew as a teenager; girls, girls, and more girls, pretty girls up and down that long Walgreen soda fountain counter.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGuwgHIHnZY


There are so many songs I like by Lew, that I can't think of a favorite, but I like this one a lot;



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqcKul3cnk


I can't think of any other vocalist I like better, but I'm trying. For me, it seems that memories have to be attached to vocals, unlike instrumentals, that I can evaluate immediately.

Oscar Brown is well represented in my collection with a lot of appropriate memories.

I liked Kurt Elling scatting on "Nature Boy", plus that was a driving arrangement; "Did the drummer get too much"? I'll have to get that. What do you think about him and Rachelle Ferrell on the same show?


Enjoy the music.

Rok, if you're a "jazz aficionado", as we are, how could he appeal to you if you never saw him entertain live. I most certainly was not impressed by the tickets; after all Sammy does not play the drums, he does not blow tenor, nor does he blow trumpet; he sings in a fashion that doesn't quite reach me, the only thing I have is him as "Sporting Life" in Porgy.

When my wife told me she had tickets for us to see Gladys Knight, without the Pips, I was not the least bit impressed that time either, because I had not seen her rated in the Downbeat Polls as doing anything in jazz. It was only when I saw the magic she possessed as an entertainer, was I impressed. It's not by accident those people are big stars.

Rok, they don't earn big bucks because of the way they look; they got "magic", and unless you see them, (or saw them) in the case of Sammy, you would not believe what I just stated; therefore I understand. But if you had seen him perform live, and said he didn't appeal to you, I would say you need a check up.


Enjoy the music.

Bobby Hutcherson:   

Sounds like fusion to me.

Cheers

Sammy Davis Jr.:

Extreme talent that just never appealed to me.   I don't know why.

Cheers

Jose James:

Reminds me of Oscar Brown Jr.   Who, btw, should have been a great Jazz singer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViV86TQI3ok&list=PLA6F7D6A7A9893A2A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZexCpTTWHc

Cheers

Kurt Elling:

I suspect he struck me the same way Rachelle Ferrell struck when she did autumn Leaves.   A little over the top.

Cheers

   
I saw this on "you tube" and it brought me back to the time I saw "Sammy".

I had never been a fan of "Sammy", like being a fan of "Bird", or Miles, or any of the other jazz musicians. My fiance bought some tickets, and told me we were going to see "Sammy Davis Jr." "He ain't Trane, but I've never seen him before", were my thoughts.


There are no words that can describe "Sammy Davis Jr."; he had a packed auditorium of people spellbound from the time he came on stage until the end. He put on a performance like I've never seen before nor since; after that, I understood why so many people go "Ga Ga" over "Sammy Davis Jr."

     
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkDu2onYeyk


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkDu2onYeyk







Enjoy the music.

I saw this on "you tube" and it brought me back to the time I saw "Sammy".

I had never been a fan of "Sammy", like being a fan of "Bird", or Miles, or any of the other jazz musicians. My fiance bought some tickets, and told me we were going to see "Sammy Davis Jr." "He ain't Trane, but I've never seen him before", were my thoughts.


There are no words that can describe "Sammy Davis Jr."; he had a packed auditorium of people spellbound from the time he came on stage until the end. He put on a performance like I've never seen before nor since; after that, I understood why so many people go "Ga Ga" over "Sammy Davis Jr."

     
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkDu2onYeyk







Enjoy the music.

Modern jazz is a style of jazz characterized by fast tempo, instrumental virtuosity, and improvisation based on the combination of harmonic structure and melody. This style of jazz ultimately became synonymous with bebop, as either category reached a certain final maturity in the 1960's.

I put that definition up there for others; while my definition is quite similar, it is unwavering. Anybody who doesn't like my definition can find another one, or write their own.

This definition indicates a style of jazz synonymous with "Be Bop"; that's what "Bird" invented with a little help from some friends. For the true connoisseurs of "Be Bop", "Birds" Bop is the only "Bop" that has withstood the test of time; his Bop sounds like music played at a fast pace, while others sounds like a lot of notes played real fast, and people accepted it as Bop.

In the formal definition, it states that "modern Jazz" reached it's maturity in the 60's, and that's "Koshure" with me. It doesn't have a cutoff date, like January 7, 1964, but I hope you get my drift. If you are a seasoned "aficionado", I'm sure you do.

Hopefully this post will cut down on a lot of confusion, but for some, everything adds confusion; consequently we will have to let them remain in their perpetual state of confusion.


After "modern jazz" reached it's final maturity, what followed was "Yankee Doodle stuck a feather in his hat, and called it macaroni". I figure it's good enough that we can almost define one segment of jazz, without defining all abstract music.

Presently I'm down loading my vinyl to the computer library, which is something that pays great dividends after a significant analog upgrade in the front end. The most welcome surprise is all the "brand new" old records; evidently, when I saw a new record of one of my favorite worn records, I bought it. This must have occurred when we changed from LP to CD, because for ages I didn't even have a cartridge, and therefore played no LP's. For the record, this stuff in no way compares to analog back in the day, when a BIC turntable and top of the line "Shure" or "Empire" cartridge was hot stuff.

I'm going to share with you what I just down loaded; "Bobby Hutcherson, San Francisco featuring Harold Land".


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgXmbhkWkwk


This tune is representative of the entire album, it's a real winner;


Enjoy the music.

Today's Listen:

Kenny Drew Jr. Trio -- PORTRAITS OF CHARLES MINGUS & THELONIOUS MONK

Drew plays with a freshness and energy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Eys6wA57g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcegtgQy2cU

Cheers

Here's another one.  This guy can sing.  I'm not crazy about some of his original material, but a lot of it is really good:

https://youtu.be/9l8R8CHpdk4

https://youtu.be/cZ9XnEDvQl0

Coltrane/Hartman:

Whose name appears first in the title of a record or movie credits or.. is a big deal, contractually and ego wise. How often does one see the name of a well known singer follow the name of an instrumentalist in the title of a record? Not often. Such was the stature of Coltrane by the time this was recorded. Gorgeous record with gorgeous singing and playing; a real classic. It is interesting to note that Hartman was reluctant to accept the gig with Coltrane because he did not consider himself a jazz singer (!?); he thought of himself as a balladeer.

**** what happened to all the male Jazz singers? ****

Probably the best right now:

https://youtu.be/LLZwOOEFFKs

https://youtu.be/iXprs8-U5nA

On a funny note, and on the subject of dropping drumsticks, all the songs on this record are reputed to have been done in one take except for one which had to be restarted because Elvin Jones dropped one of his drumsticks 😎

Ry Cooder

I got Eric Dolphy - "When Lights Are Low" playing tonight.  He played with Mingus, Coltrane. Solid player.

Today's Listen:

John Coltrane -- JOHN COLTRANE AND JOHNNY HARTMAN
A Kinder and Gentler Coltrane?  As the notes ask, what happened to all the male Jazz singers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecrE80rnjhw 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ-968Fw3bA

Cheers

O-10, that was actually a very conservative estimate; wouldn’t want to be accused of braggadocio 🤗. Moreover, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Wynton has never played Bolero. Well, maybe at Juilliard, your favorite institution of higher learning, maybe once or twice.  It’s not what he does; that’s all. Now, I know you have often said that you are not interested in learning "one single iota" about music; no problem. Perhaps you are interested in learning a little bit about the music scene. If not, you need read no further.

Symphony orchestras program Bolero, on average, probably once or twice a year; the piece is a staple of the orchestral rep. Every time that it’s programmed it receives three or four performances. If it’s programmed twice a year that is 6-8 performances. As a freelance saxophonist for 35 years I have played with at least a dozen different orchestras at one time or another. If you do the math, 30 Boleros is neither terribly unusual nor record breaking. Also, most saxophonists who play Classical music also play jazz. Recently retired bass clarinetist with the Philadelphia Orchestra, Ron Reuben, is also a very fine jazz player who also played saxophone in the orchestra for decades; he probably holds the record. Glad to inform you (if you’re still here). Btw, you may recall that I once posted on this thread a very funny story about Gerry Mulligan playing Bolero (on soprano) with the NY Phil. Not what he does (did); we can leave it at that 😉

Annie Ellicott

Frogman, I am positive you could put that in the "Guinness World Book of Records"; the only "jazz musician" who has ever been involved in probably 30 plus performances of Bolero over the years.

I don't believe Wynton Marsalis could even come close.