The jazz musicians who I knew up close and personal, were driven ((unfortunately, not to make money) they were driven to create.
A musician I had not seen or heard for a few years (we were friends) came back with a new sound that I was totally unfamiliar with, that was spectacular; he was hard bop improvisational. When we see or hear Jimmy Smith do his thing, he makes it look easy; all pros make their thing look easy, maybe it is for them.
The only thing I know about hard bop improvisational jazz is how to listen to it, and I claim to be able to qualify how good it is. On our first outing (I say "Our", because we renewed our friendship, and he moved into my apartment) at "Helens Black Eagle", a club that cherished "improvisational hard bop" we wowed the crowd; they were mesmerized.
During that Summer, we had a lot of fun and repeatedly wowed crowds. That was in 69, and the only verification I recall was a write up about his performance on center stage at the VP Fair we have here in St. Louis.
Many years later, I was talking to a musician telling him how good my friend was, and he responded; "He was good, but he wasn't that good". The musician I was talking to, was on par with Horace Silver, not one easily impressed.
Maybe he didn't hear him after he got that good, I thought to myself. That was when I searched for every note my friend had recorded, and I only verified that "He was good, but not that good".
The music he was playing that Summer was new, plus it had not, nor was it ever recorded; consequently, I have nothing to prove he was "That good".
While I can not judge all "improvisational hard bop jazz musicians" by my friend, being on center stage, and mesmerizing a crowd of people is what drove him.
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frogman Thanks I thought I recognized that very distinctive saxophone style. "Lenox Avenue Breakdown" . That goes way back. I think that lp is tucked away in my collection . Need to give it a listen. Is that James Newton on the flute? Takes a great solo in the first cut. I have been enjoying your recent posts and intend to respond at length when I have more time. I wanted to share music from an artist I saw today on my cable tv jazz channel: The Jazz Professors http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y38IjcgggxI Also another artist who does big band that I think deserves recognition: Mark Masters Ensemble http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vpBRfMMtvBE |
pjw & pryso I recommend Nicki Parrott's work on Venus records where she frequently records. Always great sound , especially the Sacds, but they are very pricey. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PoXvhXL3xEQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iBNm5FlyJvcpjw I thiink it was on friday acman3 posted a link to album "The Rites of Spring" which Clarke, Dimeola and Ponty released at the time I saw them on tour. Check it out if you are interested.. |
Mose Allison: Still bogus.
Arthur Blythe: The last Jazz LP I ever purchased, in El Paso, was by Blythe. Cheers
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*****Do you really think that jazz musicians pushing the envelope make more money than those who play what audiences already recognize and like? Really? The opposite is true.*****
My point exactly. People want to hear the good stuff. Lets go over previously covered things that I thought were settled. 1. The public decides who and what is great and good, and what is not great and good. The public, not musicians. Money talks, BS walks. Your statement demonstrates that fact. 2. Why is it that Jazz is the only genre that MUST evolve? People still love Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc....... no matter how much noise the Stravinsky types make. No one is throwing their Classical CDs in the trash because the music is old. Why should I dump Ellington. 3. Where are the KOB, Criss Cross, Giant Steps, Mingus Ah Um, Sidewinder, Song for my Father etc..........CDs/LPs of today? The "you gotta have" albums. 4. Where is the staying power, The continuity, The consistent outstanding performance and body of work from any modern day Jazz player? It's all sort of hit and miss. Maybe I'll get lucky next time. 5. What year was the last Jazz Standard written? 6. These modern guys spend a lot of time playing, or trying to play, Trane, Parker et al. I wonder why? Cheers Btw, this all applies to Pop and Blues music as well. The quality of music in any era follows the bell curve. No getting around it. |
Re Mose Allison “Ever Since The World Ended”. Very nice clip. The first saxophone solo (alto) is indeed Arthur Blythe. The tenor solo at 2:45 is in fact Bennie Wallace. Excellent call, nsp! This record caused quite a stir when it came out: https://youtu.be/pVU101QQRa8 |
Welcome back, O-10. Btw, I don’t think Rok is ever talking to the wind; we hear him loud and clear. Keep feeling better. |
**** The new ’Jazz’ musicians want to change Jazz music, until they can play it. I don’t blame them. Everyone has to eat. ****
No, they don’t want to “change it until they can play it”; you simply don’t understand what it means to be a creative musician and what drives them. Do you really think that jazz musicians pushing the envelope make more money than those who play what audiences already recognize and like? Really? The opposite is true. Where do you get your data? Moreover, if you are suggesting that they “changed” it so that they could play it you would also be very mistaken. You obviously have no idea how much harder it is to play many modern jazz compositions compared to a typical and familiar blues-based composition with its comfy and predictable harmonic progressions and Chin-Chin-ka-Chin rhythms. We can disagree about stylistic differences, but that is a separate matter. Each successive era in jazz history has posed new musical challenges compared to the previous era. What is baffling is how with so much proof before you of how jazz has evolved (changed to use your word) over the years that you think that it would all of a sudden stop changing. Why would it? Does ragtime sound like Dixieland? Does swing sound like bebop? Does bebop sound like hard bop? And on and on. Oh, I get it...it is suppoised to stop changing (evolving) when it starts to move beyond what you like or understand otherwise it becomes “noise”. Got it.
**** I think it was perfectly reasonable that the music of Bird and Dizzy would sound like Chinese music to Pop’s ears, Especially when you consider the music that Louis Played, and the music that proceeded Bebop. ****
++++ I think it is perfectly reasonable that the music of new Jazz musicians would sound like noise to Rok’s ears. Especially when you consider the music that Rok likes and understands and the music that preceded modern jazz. ++++
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Joe Lovano / Dave Douglas - Sound Prints |
Welcome back O-10. Hope you are feeling better. You were missed. Cheers |
Rok, I want you to know that you are not talking to the wind; I hear you loud and clear, "Maybe I should have gone to Mexico".
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nsp, can't say I would have identified him, but from the comments on that Allison link -- Wonderful alto from the mighty Arthur Blythe! rok, you and I may have different perspectives, but I'll just say that Mose was respected enough to have performed with some pretty well acclaimed jazz musicians, as well as having recorded for Prestige and Blue Note. With that, on to other things. nsp, thanks for the introduction to Nicki Parrott. Never heard of her, but as so many have said, discovering new artists/music is a wonderful part of this site. To offer some music, here's a mix of old and new(er). The Woody Herman Band for something older, doing a Chick Corea number for something newer (if no longer new today). Herman is one of a few big bands I truly enjoy, although I would have preferred an acoustic piano to the electric utilized here (another personal prejudice). ;^) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4LmJch7VYU |
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pryso
I listened to acman3's Mose Allison posted cuts and I definitely hear blues and jazz. I was curious who the sax player is on the 3rd cut "Ever Since The World Ended" who comes in at 2:45 . It sounds like Ernie Krivda or Bennie Wallace.
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*****He also famously said: “Bebop sounds like Chinese music”. I guess bebop is not jazz either.*****
I think it was perfectly reasonable that the music of Bird and Dizzy would sound like Chinese music to Pop's ears, Especially when you consider the music that Louis Played, and the music that proceeded Bebop. I think Chinese is the perfect description of some their stuff. The new 'Jazz' musicians want to change Jazz music, until they can play it. I don't blame them. Everyone has to eat. Charlie Rich, the Country singer, thanked Ray Charles for changing Country Music to the point where he, Rich, could sing it. At least we have our CDs/LPs, so they can change away!!!
Cheers
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**** Remember Pops said " If you can’t dance to it, it ain’t Jazz ". I didn’t say that, Louis Armstrong said it. ****
He also famously said: “Bebop sounds like Chinese music”. I guess bebop is not jazz either.
**** The problem is some folks just can’t accept Jazz for what it is. They want to change it, until they like it. ****
Nah! I think you have it backwards. It is Jazz that can’t accept Jazz for what it is (in a manner of speaking).
Now, about Ruby....
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I think Brother Miles and Company would have been shown the door. Remember Pops said " If you can't dance to it, it ain't Jazz ". I didn't say that, Louis Armstrong said it. The problem is some folks just can't accept Jazz for what it is. They want to change it, until they like it. Just like some so-called Christians. BTW, It was never proven that I was a regular patron at Red Ruby's House of Pleasure. Cheers |
Up in the wilds of upstate NY with VERY limited and sporadic internet, so need to make it quick before it goes down again. Informative and spirited posts all. Thanks! Tying together a few recent mentions: As nsp points out, Wayne Shorter was Miles’ pick for permanent replacement in what, for me, was the greatest quintet ever; my favorite, anyway. I guess this is not Jazz since I doubt music like this was heard in the bordellos of Mississippi. Hey, Rok how do you know so much about bordellos in Mississippi 😊? https://youtu.be/-NSJtCdlhe4 |
*****But can you deny the impact of the blues in that development of what became jazz out of New Orleans? With that genetic connection I for one can’t completely separate jazz from the blues. *****
No one on this thread has stressed the connection between the Blues and Jazz more than I have. I realize you may have missed a lot of the earlier stuff. The Blues is essential to Jazz. It is the mother of Jazz. Most of the noise posted here is noise precisely because there is no hint of the blues in it. I know this guy from back in the day. I always thought him some sort of folk singer. He found a niche and made a nice living. Good for him. A white guy from Mississippi singing the Blues was quite the thing with the ’progressive’ set and coffee houses in the northeast.
He does not have the voice, nor the life experiences to sing the blues. What would this guy know about Parchman farm? You wanna hear the blues, try Howlin’ Wolf, Muddy Waters, Albert Collins, Elmore James, Fred McDowell, Big Mama Thronton, or a million other real Blues artist. An example of what I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1g36CXfQ00 The passage at 1:40 ruined this entire performance. Although Nelson is a fine artist in his own right, he does tend to get in over his head when he sings with R&B and Jazz artist. The voice does not fit that type music.
Cheers
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nsp
Thanks for the link I like her. Was not aware of her. That's at the Iridium club on 51st and Broadway, NYC. Less Paul used to play there every Monday night until he died. I have been down those stairs to many times to count!!
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rok, you and I have agreed on enjoyment for several things posted here, so I'm a little surprised we have such divergent views now. Not that any of us should think like another.
But can you deny the impact of the blues in that development of what became jazz out of New Orleans? With that genetic connection I for one can't completely separate jazz from the blues. I hear some of both in Mose's performances and I enjoy his mellow blending of them.
That is not to say you should like him too, but to deny Allison's music represents either type is a mystery to me. Peace.
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bluesy41
Agree totally with you "pay homage to the elders but give love the new musicians trying to keep this dying art alive". We need to support the latest generation of jazz musicians by buying their product and supporting their live shows. There is a lot of great jazz available now . Jazz is a marginalized music not supported by the masses ( except maybe in the Swing era) that needs its followers to pat=rticipate in order to survive.
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pjw Thanks for the Getz link. Esperanza Spalding - New to me I checked her out she can really swing. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQtXo4tiZxsLove her intro statement " Jazz is America's classical music". I just wish that jazz received the respect and support in America that classical music receives in Europe. |
rok2cid
There are many newer jazz artists that still play the kind of jazz I believe you like. Just go on Amazons website, sample some of the music, and keep checking your local jazz venues to see if they are coming to town!
I could name them and post some songs on here if you want. |
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He was, that's why he should know better. Cheers |
I think he was also from Mississippi. |
Mercy Lord, Mercy !! Speaking of cruel and unusual. Cheers |
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***** Jazz is art so let the artist paint the colors the way they see,feel and hear them. *****
Actually I tried that idea myself. I took an Art course at the local community college, bought some paint, brushes, and a canvas. I expressed my true inner feeling on canvass, and then took off for Austin to make my fame and fortune. I never heard people laugh so hard and long. They said my inner feelings were junk. But I feel, with proper support from the local media, I could have been a star. Its seems to work for some folks. Cheers |
@rok2id “but what does these days” no disrespect but you obviously need to chill and get out and visit some of the great jazz venues around this country and others. Jazz music is in good hands and it’s here to stay. Jazz is art so let the artist paint the colors the way they see,feel and hear them.
Cheers
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Not Jazz, does not even sound like Jazz. But what does these days? Need I remind you 'aficionados', that Jazz is a music that was created in the Bordellos of New Orleans. Now, imagine this being played there. I think the Madame would show them the door. Cheers |
Neither according to this Mississippi native. Cheers |
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Neither. Yes it matters. Cheers |
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pjw
Thanks that explains it. My double lp is March 22 1960nand includes the Coltrane interview.
I saw that these concerts seemed to be already documented on cd and was not sure.
Miles-not happy? For sure! It took him 4 sax players an d 4 years before he found a permanent replacement in W Shorter.
Do you rem ember the name of that S Getz bio? I'd like to get a copy if available.
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nsp- Coltrane left halfway through the tour and was replace by Sonny Stitt. I have all of these concerts on separate cd's already so I have no need for the new "bootleg" set. The Coltrane interview is from the Stockholm cd here. https://www.amazon.com/Stockholm-1960-Complete-Miles-Davis/dp/B00000AW2R/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=U...This 4 disc set is awesome you get The March 1960 concert with Coltrane on tenor. Sometime later he left the European tour to get started with his new band which, after some changes in musician personnel, was settled by 1961 with the famous Impulse Recording production lineup of Elvin Jones on percussion, McCoy Tyner on piano, and Reggie Workman, shortly replaced Permanently by Jimmy Garrison on bass. The return October 1960 concert at Stockholm had Sonny Stitt on both tenor and alto. Miles was not to happy with this arrangement. |
Jafant
I was curious about your impressions of the new Miles Davis/John Coltrane The Final Tour. How are the solos and what about production/ sound quality. It seems that I have read Coltrane had already left Miles but agreed to stay on for this tour. I was wondering did Coltranes style already evolve tothe point where he didn't fit Miles concept ?Was the music taken from various dates or from one concert? I have a 2 fer lp set from Stockholm in 1960 and do not know if this latest lp is just a rehash of that concert. Anyone else h ave any impressions/thoughts?
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nsp- "I second your recommendation of Art Pepper's "Straight Life" autobiography"
His drug addiction antics, although they seem funny when reading the book, were actually very sad. Stan Getz' autobiography also is filled with dope antics. Getz never did any significant jail time like Pepper did. San Quentin and hanging out with gangsters while serving years all in Art Peppers book!
frogman- "Music reflects the time of its creation and in many ways it was a simpler time back then"
Just quoting your last sentence that was an overall excellent post frogman.
pryso- "
My interest in jazz developed during the late '50s and '60s, so no surprise that is what I still love best. At the same time, I try to be open to what fallowed, right up to the present
I did not start listening to jazz until 2002-3, when I turned 40 but of course my first few years I collected the material of all the "old school greats" then started hitting the jazz clubs in NYC and really digged most of the bands I saw so I like the old and new equally.
bluesy41-"but that doesn’t mean that I don’t feel that my brother Christian McBride isnt the greatest upright bass player I’ve ever heard.
I saw McBride once I believe he was playing bass at a Jeff tain Watts show I saw about 8 years ago. It would be hard to choose either him or Stanley Clarke over one or the other. I saw Esperanza Spalding at the Apollo Theater and she plays electric and upright bass awesome. She is almost at the same level as some of the male greats plus she can sing really well. And don't forget about Jaco Pastorious or Victor Wooten when talking about bass players!!
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