Jazz for aficionados
schubertI love your comments about Tony B .Yes a transcendent human being a gift to all of us who appreciate him. My favorite pianist and singer together. Tony's voice is so delicate and Beautiful on this tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bDFDYhXqPM |
Alex, fantastic!!! Your post is a perfect example of the reason that these discussions can be so interesting. You are a very thoughtful music listener and I always appreciate your perspective. You wrote: **** First, let me just point out that English is not my native language, so I could have somewhat different perspective in general toward vocalists. Also, their (singers) cultural heritage might be viewed diferent, from our very different points of perception ( geographically and culturally) **** This is why I say fantastic. I think I can remember almost word for word a comment that I wrote and was going to include in my last post, but deleted it because I thought if might be misconstrued or misinterpreted: ***** Having said all that, I would add that as wonderful a notion as is “Music is the universal language”, I think it is true only up to a point. I think that a listener’s ethnic and cultural background plays into all this and influences the reaction to certain aspects of a performer’s musical personality. **** Engish is not my native language either, but my native language and cultural background are closer to that of Bennett. I find all this fascinating. Thanks for your further thoughts. |
Here are a few of my favorites. I hope they are approved by the music critics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkD_kYkRk3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8dKZSvkjA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ZGKALMMuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FygIKsnkCw |
Well, ok, will share few thoughts (listening to Bennett in background ) First, let me just point out that English is not my native language, so I could have somewhat different perspective in general toward vocalists. Also, their (singers) cultural heritage might be viewed diferent, from our very different points of perception ( geographically and culturally) But, bottom line is that I find (or better, feel) Bennet's singing, in lack of better words, rather 'flat' and inexpressive, uninspiring, quite limited in range and colorless.For some reason, all songs, when sung by him seemed to be the same. I am quite perplexed why do people like his singing, as singing in general is very primitive (not meaning vulgar, but primordial) and people usually react the same when they hear something nice (birds singing for example). But, maybe its my 'fault'... I really dont want to sound harsh,again, hope nobody will be offened, as I have nothing against him, his work or personality, it just that his singing does not touch me at all... |
Thanks for the Dean Martin clips, Alex. No question the guy could sing; just not my flavor of ice cream. I’m sure it’s no surprise to you by now that I don’t shy away from talking about these things and I certainly would not mind in the least hearing more of your thoughts. I find this kind of discussion interesting and for me it’s never cause to take offense when someone doesn’t share my tastes. Dean Martin was a “crooner”. That’s not a negative but a particular style that is more rooted in a Hollywood and Las Vegas sensibility; the “Rat Pack” thing. Now it’s my turn to ask that no one be offended, but in spite of the wonderful velvety quality in his voice, the way he slurs over some of the lyrics drives me a little nuts. I can’t help but feel that he has had one too many. For me, Bennett has, along with the joyful quality just bit of grit in his voice. Anyway, as I said, vanilla/chocolate. Speaking of “Rat Pack”, Las Vegas and bongos, this Rat Packer so fully embraced the entire Hollywood/Vegas thing that if I’m in the right mood I can actually enjoy his performances....some of them, anyway...for a minute 😊 https://youtu.be/VNNZan852tQ |
Don’t be , you are what you are and like what you like .And that’s OK . Only point I try to make is music is a gift of love from the source of love . The Jesse Davis post I made is about love .Pure love .This well respected 2 lip Alto man played next to a Spanish high school tenor and she was as good as he was . Big Jesse was OVERJOYED to the point of calling out to the audience "She did it , she did it" with a smile that light up the world . It is ALL about love . |
After those words I am kind of reluctant to speak about Bennett anymore, so instead will just put two albums of Dean Martin that I like. As far as I am concerned, he could sing the lines from a phone book and it still would sound great... Dean Martin 'This time I am swinging' album https://youtu.be/c8M_ALpcXcg 'Dream with Dean' album https://youtu.be/OU86Pt3eVVU https://youtu.be/NMp_RdumOuw |
Well that’s what women say , mary jo . A story is a gift not a sell. Only thing I look for in everything, to include music, is love . And the thing I am most grateful for is God has allowed me to know it when I see it . frog , "Lost in the Stars " is, literally , beyond words . "All the "Things you Are "is the essence of Bennett, Its not his voice , when he opens his mouth love pours out of it in a wave that washes over those who will hear it . God Bless you for posting it . |
Alex, I’m so offended! Kidding, of course 😊. As they say, that is is why we have chocolate and vanilla ice cream. It’s so interesting how certain art touches one person, but not another. Your description of Bennett’s singing as “light” is precisely how I would characterize Dean Martin. A couple more favorite Bennett: https://youtu.be/nsecJqW-wdg https://youtu.be/dzyCeul1Hvk |
"mary jo. As you know most women love a bad boy." If so then only until the good boy comes along. Then they dump the first one, if they are smart enough. Loving a bad one is a myth. That’s not love. They just wait for the good one to come. In the waiting time, a lot’s of things one can learn about one’s nature. And nobody said that learning is easy one to do. As for the singers. Or any performer. Or any artist. I want blood. Allegorically speaking. The blood of an artist or the blood of the "character" that is made up by an artist. The insight in the most intimate part of the life, for which you decide to show me. Who you are, what you are and what you can be. Tell me. Or sell me a story but sell me good. I will leave you now. A smile for the start, laughter for the middle of the story, joy for the end: Victor Borge, comedian, conductor, pianist - not necessarily in this order. Dane the Great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osDpTapvbWE |
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Can't see why anyone would be offended alex . Taste changes with age and experience in any event . I wore out several Jacquet albums to include that one . Walks that thin linebetween blues and jazz better than anyone I've heard . I keep our Jazz station on all the time in my car . Just last week the DJ played some Lou Rawls and I was surprised how good a voice he had .DJ said doesn't get much play because he is thought of as a r&b/ blues artist though he did some good jazz stuff . |
Listening now and the hour is just about right.... Illinois Jacquet ’Round midnight’ from ’The bues, thats me’ album,r.1969. https://youtu.be/Ixc2BNuTURM https://youtu.be/Mo4bkJDhD3g |
Hope nobody will be offended, but Bennett somehow does not touch me. I could try to explain it better, but his singing I find to be ’light’. I have one his album, with B.Evans, but did not listened it much. Is it a tone, or a lack of expression (imho), but I just could not develop an affection for his singing. I tryed, just to add, in my defence. I respect Sinatra, but like Dean Martin more. Than again, Sinatra ’at the Sands’, with Count’s orchestra is a great album. He was perhaps arogant, but seems to have feeling for self-irony https://youtu.be/tro3r_DKDdY Of course, we have mentioned Nat King Cole and J.Hartman, but maybe Lou Rawls was not mentioned often... https://youtu.be/PFcmcH1DN2k https://youtu.be/INKTkkLNAdk |
mary jo. As you know most women love a bad boy . I hope somebody looked at the high school band at the Barcelona Jazz Festival I posted . Joel Frahm is a power-house saxophonist who was their soloist He said that high school band was the best ensemble he ever played with , he can’t watch the film anymore as the the two young vocalists make him cry . If you do, watch his face in the background , its that of a loving father! |
nsp. It's not a matter of like or dislike . Anything you see/hear with Bennett is a divine gift that is done one way, with respect and love of what he is doing and whoever he is doing it with , He is a transcendent human being,a gift to us all.I thank God that I was blessed to live at the same time he has . |
A very long discussion on vocalists funny I was listening to Astrud Gilberto last night. And she was asked by Stan Getz to stand in and sing while the band was waiting for the "professional vocalist" who was arriving a day or 2 later for the recording session. Well you know how that ended up! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DudoQ_yx0yo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMX6E68qJAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5QfXjsoNe4 |
pjw That 2nd listing Bernstein, Goldings, Stewart i also have it was my 1st Smallslive purchase. Bill Stewart is perhaps my favorite drummer/ musician of the current generation. I've actually met him once. I purchased it at a reasonable price . I don' get where these listers on Amazon come up with these price gouging offers. Are they serious? |
Speaking of...I appreciate the work of any musician. The efforts done on the way. If I don’t like the performance, I prefer to keep the opinion for myself. Mostly. But it looks like, if I spend some more time here, I will quickly lose that. I have already started with Sinatra, although he is, beyond any doubt, great singer. I do not mind his arrogance, it suits him well, some people can obviously afford it. But if I have to say that he is my type in complete, could not say that. Prefer more exposed intimacy, meaning vulnerability. Something what Chet does despite the lack of the skill and often wrong tune, mildly said. His delivery and Sinatra’s ability. What a killing combination that would be. If I must compare Sinatra and Bennett, my vote here goes to Sinatra. Bennett seems like a good, normal guy. I guess I seek for abnormalities in art. A not ordinary kind. Somebody might think otherwise and that’s fine with me. Joe Williams Just the way you are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK0szA1yltM What’s new? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0B9IzTGlus Get out of my life woman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYiUgwLiN4 |
Agree completely. There is an expression used by musicians when speaking of a player’s sound and of certain equipment’s sound that says “it’s (he/she) got the smile in the sound”. For me, Bennett has the smile in his sound; a certain feeling of joy of singing that seems to come from the heart. Now, I certainly am not in a position to know what was in Sinatra’s heart, but whatever it was it seldom made me smile. I realize that “Body and Soul” is a song that speaks about loneliness, but still.... Moreover, and along the lines of Schubert’s story re Bennett/Aretha and Mary-Jo’s “controlled” studio environment comment, listen to Sinatra’s singing beginning around 3:30 and especially when he sings “surrender”. Terribly out of tune. No producer or md would have had the audacity to say, as is normal, “Hey, Frank, I think you’re a little flat; try it again”. Speaks volumes. |
You know mine . I saw a show , PBS I believe, where it showed everybody with him as they made his "Duo" recording . IMO by far the best song was with Aretha . As it ended, he paused and then said to her softly "Was that good" ? She rolled some music up and smacked him over the head as she said something like "you know dam well it was " .In a loving way of course . He was very kind to everyone on that in a manner that could not be faked .Was even nicer to those who had less talent as he did his best by them as well as he did with great stars . A True National Treasure in every way . And a hell of a painter ! |
frogman There is no doubting Sinatra's talent but I think he exhibited a swagger or cockiness in his singing that some may not like. And he was not always the best interpreter of a tune. Case in point : Sinatra and Bennett performing Body and Soul : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ls9rNtD_Ms http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6I4MNubkUQ Myvote goes to Tony hands down, which do you and other members like? |
nsp, I have about a half dozen discs of live at Smalls sessions. Off the top of my head the 2 Peter Bernstein sessions are really good. I have never been to Smalls. https://www.amazon.com/Peter-Bernstein-Quartet-Live-Smalls/dp/B004O0VDEO/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=peter+b... https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Goldings-Stewart-Live-Smalls/dp/B005TMGY6I/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=pete... The price on the second disc is ridiculous. Good thing I bought it when it was first released. |
frog , re Still .I worked with a guy who was a student of Still . According to him one of the first things Fritz did when he got to Chicago was to fire Ray . After first few rehearsals he knew Ray was the anchor of the band and would remain so .Kaiser Reiner would have none of this .Thank God the union went to court and Ray got his job back . |
Keep posting mary_jo. Re Krall: Not a fan. I find her deliveries bland and pretty much the opposite of what I consider “nailing” a tune. Sorry, it was just a gratuitous dig. No point in getting on the Krall bashing bandwagon. Much more productive to discuss Sinatra who was undoubtedly a great singer. So is fillet a great cut of beef; but, give me sirloin any day. I agree with Schubert. For me, there was a quality in his singing (not nearly as much in a young Sinatra) that makes me feel like he felt he was doing the audience a favor by singing. The simple joy of singing of someone like Bennett is not there for me. Just me. https://youtu.be/kP1F7_G4Adc |
frogman In the Adair and Sinatra versions of "Fly Me to the Moon" for me the thing that "locks in " the song is their impeccable sense of swing. That ,along with the tempo makes their versions right for the listener. I give credit to Adair's trio members for locking in the tempo solidly. Krall tries to impart her own different sense of swing in the lyrics on her number which fails , especially in the middle and end of the song. I always feel it's difficult for a singer to cover a song for which another ( Sinatra in this case) has done what most consider a definitive version and her attempt to make it her own falls short. |
No argument intended, mary_jo. In a studio setting the tempo is “controlled” only when a “click track” is used; which is not always the case at all. Even then the tempo is a “choice” that is made. Taken a step further, good musicians will use the click track as a reference only and will play subtly “around” the mechanical “beat” that is heard in the headphones. It is true that a click track is used primarily on commercial and pop recordings. The vast majority of the classic jazz recordings that we have discussed here have been done in a studio and none used a click track; they were essentially “live” performances in a studio without an audience. The whole point of my comment was, as you said, that certain tunes work best at certain tempos. Can Krall nail it at a faster tempo? I don’t know about Krall “nailing” anything, but yes it could be done at a faster tempo. But... Believe it or not, I was on THE A train when I read your post and listened to Ella’s clip. Not sure about the meaning of it in this context. |
Since Beegie aka granny has another clip on You Tube titled " Tribute to Sinatra" I doubt if its a coincidence . I love to hunt out these little known pro musicians , Krall must be worth a 100 million and she could not carry Beegies music .I love her quick head bob to the "boys in the band’ as if to say good job guys .Also , the European jazz scene, right now it is smoking hot in Spain, Italy , Poland and points east . Sinatra was arrogant end of story .I hear the arrogance behind the beauty and don’t like it , someone like Tony Bennett is pure beauty . I love that . |
"Tempo is simply how fast or how slow a tune is played and is a choice made by musicians which has nothing to do with whether it is a studio or a live recording." Not necessarily. In the controlled studio conditions, the tempo is usually perfectly controlled, which is not the case with the live performance where it can differ. At some point the musician can lost the track. Since it's alive, it cannot be corrected, what is played is played. But I was not thinking on the tempo precisely, when mentioning the "lost parts" in the live performance, I was referring to the perfect and clean sound. And yes, although one can argue about it and it's merely the matter of taste, I agree that certain tune fits particular tempo. The lullaby for baby will be surely performed in a slower tempo. By the way, some very nice tunes you posted. Sinatra nails it, Diana not (God forgive me). Do you think that she does not have any chance in nailing it 'cause using faster tempo? Could it be done like Sinatra does it but with the tempo that she is using? An example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ_4cRG8B1g |
Not meaning to belabor the point about the “perfect” tempo and being “locked in”, but.... Say what one will about Frank Sinatra, but although he was by no means my favorite singer his phrasing and feel for picking the right tempo were stellar. “Fly Me To The Moon” is a song that he practically owned. Compare the tempo of the Nashville granny’s version with Sinatra’s classic recording of the tune. Exactly the same! And locked in as Schubert points out. Coincidence? https://youtu.be/l7XPg-CacMs Too fast; not nearly as locked in: https://youtu.be/qVCgf6_M7i4 Ray Still!!! Anyone who wants to hear fantastic oboe playing should check out Chicago/Reiner “Rossini Overtures”. Amazing oboe playing. |
I’ve heard there is a healthy jazz scene in Nashville . If this "locked" in Granny is any example they are telling the truth ! https://youtu.be/HsJavr4AI5M P.S Frogman, every time I hear Phelps I think of Ray Still , monsters of a feather I guess . |
Cynthia Phelps is a monster musician and all-around lovely person. More on the subject of tempo and so my comment is not misunderstood. Tempo is simply how fast or how slow a tune is played and is a choice made by musicians which has nothing to do with whether it is a studio or a live recording. The slickness and “intervention” of a studio recording or the potentially looser and more raw quality in a live version is an entirely different issue. In the case of the two Winehouse clips I think that if the live band had played the tune at the slower tempo of the studio version combined with the looseness and less controlled feel of live it would have been best of all. Although subjective to a degree, certain tunes just seem to lock in at a certain tempo more so than at other tempos even when the difference is very subtle. I have a real soft spot for this record and I’m sure I have posted some of it before. One of the very first jazz records (well, it’s really a Brazilian bossa/samba record) I bought many years ago featuring the great Cannonball Adderley playing some beautifully lyrical and melodic improvisations: https://youtu.be/69uh2T1TtTY https://youtu.be/PA0G2Uz9tfo https://youtu.be/iudyMkulp-I |
Second nature to hear whether a piece is locked in once you are tuned in for it . Fantastic example of a string player who is tighter than two drums is Cynthia Phelps, Principal Viola of NYP . Some clips on You Tube .. Not hard to hear why he is tops in bongo land .My lame brain lies to me when it says to play both melody and beat at same time requires 4 hands . |
On the subject of tempo...yep, agree with you Fro, the studio version is perfect as I’ve said, but although live version is not, it is more dear to me. Precisely due to "lost parts"...The lack of studio interventions is obvious. This does not mean that I would not admire the perfection in some other song - it’s just that in this particular piece, the deprived strength in live performance suits me more. It just hits the "song message" to the center. |
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pjwSo that Tyner box set is 7 lps total. I'm interested as I only have "Inception" on sacd and I don't want to buy each cd one at a time. Was wondering if you have any "Smalls Live " cds. from NYC club I picked up two titles recently less than 10 dollars each and I like the music and sonics. Have you ever gone to any shows there ? Seems like a small intimate club. |
Wonderful Paco de Lucia clip, pjw. Wonderful groove and Paco’s usual brilliance. Loved that. Nina’s conga player would have done well to listen to and learn from Paco’s amazing bongos player. Not exactly a fan of Amy Winehouse either, mary_jo, although she was one of the more interesting female pop voices to come around in a while. On the subject of tempo: while there is always a bit of wiggle room in either direction, it is often felt by players that sometimes a tune has THE perfect tempo at which things seem to “lock in”. Winehouse’s studio version of “You Know I’m No Good” gets it right even if it has that sterile studio sound. The live version is faster than the studio version and loses some of that nice “I’m No Good” feel. Considered by some to be the greatest bongos (and all Latin percussion) player: https://youtu.be/9Z6nAKIQyBg https://youtu.be/Zp0O_bhF-wo |
