Jazz for aficionados

pjwNot to worry buddy Rich's place in jazz history is firmly cemented. They can think whatever they want. I've already stated that my  taste changed towards Buddy Rich the more I listened to Jazz that doesn't make his contribution any less meaningful.  I give him much credit for keeping the big band tradition alive and well for many decades up until his passing in the late 80s. Not too many others can say this.You should buy that small group recording with Tatum and Hampton that you posted. That CD refutes any argument that buddy was not able to play subtly and quietly behind other players.

frogmanThe Don Cherry Gato Barbieri cut you posted a short time ago with European musicians reminded me of their collaboration on Blue Note. I wonder if Gato fully embraced the free jazz movement or was it something he just dabbled in as he was coming up and developing his career. Because after 69 or 70 he pretty much discarded. That Style and I don't think he ever went back to it. you are the first person to get me to listen to an Albert Ayler piece of music completely from start to finish. I think this was because it was a standard "Summertime" which he had to stick closer to the melody. He is one artist that I never really cared for. I find his tone grating to the ear. HIs mournful , emotional quality of playing always come through but he is one of those out players I never liked.

You’re costing me a lot of money buying these gospels rok . E-8 money is lot less than you 0-11's’ get !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHwKV_5gGuk

Way back in the day, when they sang this in my Church, I would inch just a little closer to my Mom. :) They knew how to put the fear of God in you.

HUSH!! somebody’s calling my name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVxm7g8xbE4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqYuBfg20Tc
note the 'rhythm section'    It's all the same thing indeed.

Cheers

Here is the great man himself , a composer mind you, playing one of his works with the other serious band, like the WDR , in Cologne .
I would think any lover of serious music can hear serious genres can blend and blend well .
https://youtu.be/VTPec8z5vdY

Adios Nonino essentially means "Farewell ’ , he composed this very soon after his father, also a great bandoneon player, passed .I like to think that’s why some of the music is Angelic . You can see him go into pure grief for his father about 5:20 ,  teared me up ..

The real deal for a listener like me is is Brecker brought the rest of the guys up with him . I’ll leave Calderazzo out for the simple reason I don’t really get him(my bad) , but Peterson was even better than usual ,which I could not believe , ditto for e dui .


I think there are lessons to be learned from this .A Miles Davis could put the fear of God into them , but a Brecker brought
God to the party .Music( or anything else) can’t be that transcendent if love is not in the room .

Glad you liked that, Schubert. That was one of the greatest tenor fronted quartets in recent times. Michael Brecker was a genius and is so sorely missed. Putting personal style aside he was probably the greatest saxophone virtuoso that has ever lived. Very good Piazzola by the Italian Quartet, btw. Thanks for that.

https://youtu.be/2MPQCV_nUiI

https://youtu.be/tjpjGSr38d4

Pjw, it's funny you should mention that LP by "The Messengers"; it's playing right now and I hear Bobby Timmons, Lee Morgan, Bennie Golson, and Jymie Merrit a lot more than I hear Blakey; you tell me what you hear.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teF-8IqFIh4

Thanks Schubert, I had found the answer a hour or so ago.   Love the Italian sax players.
Cheers

Frogman ,I listened to your Becker @ Co  "Madame Tolouse" a half dozen
times , perfection itself  by all !

Almost unreal talent , almost hard to believe .




















i

This is a modern composer who can dance on the Jazz side or the Classical side at the same time with beauty and grace for both .


https://youtu.be/QXNbLi88Iw8?t=2


rok, Phil means "lover of" in Greek and was often given that name when rich folks were the major money men  back in the day .
Symphony just means a band with all the instruments needed to play one .
Today terms are used because big cities often have more than one major ensemble . Symphony 2 doesn't sound all that well .

BTW, I have music from the computer in the basement coming to the bedroom, so if I don't know who's playing, I have to get out of bed and go check.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWs0lSZvBQ

This impressed me enough to get up to verify my suspicions. Wardell Gray ballads are harder to find than Wardell "Be-Bop"


Lucky Thompson was also sounding good, but can't find it on the tube.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkKneiZNNXs



Oh yes, "Elanor Rigby" by Chick Corea qualifies as "new music" for me because it sounds good, and it's different from everybody else's.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfi0g_5CiM&list=RDbxfi0g_5CiM&start_radio=1&t=10


My world, my definitions.



     


       



     

Hit the jackpot the very first try; Julius Watkins, and Gunther Schuller; horn. This is on Miles "Porgy and Bess".

I don't have anything with Julius Watkins as leader, but I have him on every jazz album that wants a horn.

Oh That Frogman be funny tonight.   I do believe he missed his calling.

Cheers

Yes 🤔

Does anyone know why some groups are called ’Symphony’ and others are called ’Philharmonic’?

I looked up the meanings of the words. Symphony means the group has all the instruments required to play Symphonies. But so do the Philharmonics.

Cheers

***** I can say with a certainty that I like the music output of Blakey better then Buddy Rich. *****

There you go.   Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Cheers

I have exactly 48 Art Blakey albums in my collection. Again I must repeat - Art Blakey has more extended drum solo's on his studio albums then any other drummer who leads a jazz group. 

I think Art Blakey was a great drummer and band leader and many a newcomer on the scene got his start in the "Jazz Messengers" before moving on. I happen to enjoy his extended drum solo's on his albums.

I can say with a certainty that I like the music output of Blakey better then Buddy Rich. It is not for me to say who is the better drummer. I like them equally as drummers.

Another example of the excellent Buddy Rich in a big band setting with some outstanding solo's in the brass sections and on piano. Buddy plays a short but electrifying solo at the end of the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Dh1cyHKlA

pjw, you beat me to it.  My next post was going to be to welcome Learsfool back to the thread.  

Good to hear from you, Learsfool.  As you can see we have some fine new contributors; but in other ways little has changed, unfortunately.  Btw, have you come across the name Chris Comer by any chance?  

***** The term "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" applies to a few people on this thread.*****

The term "You can't BS an old dog" is more accurate.

Cheers

learsfool, here is one of my favorite Julius Watkins songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGYCTARFR0g

orpheus10,FYI Watkins was born in Detroit so I'm sure you heard of him. 

pjw, hang in there.  This too shall pass; been there many times.  You contributions are valued a great deal.  Your support of the music is as fine as anyone I have come in contact with. 

**** He was a noise making loud mouth bully!!  Had no business in Jazz.   **** 

Hmmmm 🤔.  Just change the tense from past to present 😊

Lets stay on point.   The point is Rich.   Not statistics.   The usual Frogman Tactic.   Change the focus or subject.  

Cheers

I would have remembered Rich.    We Aficionados are like that.

Cheers

**** I don't think any real Jazz fan buys an album based on who the drummer is. ****

https://youtu.be/in5H8Zg4jME

roc do you honestly think I believe that since 7:07 pm when I posted about Buddy Rich until 7:58  when you posted your retort of my post, that you checked 348 pages and "over 17,000 posts", in your own words, is simply not doable.

Unless you have had nothing else to do since I posted BR 3 days ago and have been diligently at work checking every post on this thread to "prove your point" to this I would only say one word.


Pathetic.

***** pjw, all I have to say is, thank God for Jazz fans like you.*****

Good Grief!!!    get a room!!

Cheers

Rok, must you? How many great players have been posted here over the last few months for the first time; often with wonderment as to why they weren’t posted previously? What on earth does that have to do with anything? Surely, you can come up with a better nonsensical attempt at a dig than that. Not to mention that you are mistaken; “how typical”. Buddy Rich was mentioned here at least a couple of times. At least once in reference to his featured tenor player Steve Marcus early on during one of my attempts to focus on big bands. There has been little interest in the big bands here.

***** Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd."


Who dat say dat, not me? ****

For the record 😊:


**** Show-man and show-off. The best Jazz drummers, you hardly know they are there.

Cheers ****


**** Rok, truer words were never spoken; ****  - O-10

O-10,
They understand what you are saying.   They are just playing the usual game.

Cheers

Wallace Roney 1988:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYhqbouxxBY

Wallace Roney 2019:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNV_eCsZ04o

I could make a list of good jazz artists that are still recording and playing live but it is not my job to use up my time to satisfy people who could get on the internet and do it themselves.

The term "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" applies to a few people on this thread.

***** Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd.*****

I am sorry if my statement came across as subtle or indirect, it was not meant to be either.
I said he was a Show-man and a Show-off.  If that's too subtle for you, try this:
He was a noise making loud mouth bully!!   Had no business in Jazz.   A media creation.  Another Maynard Ferguson type.   All show, no substance.   (listen to my high C)   No one, who is serious about Jazz considered him anything other than a lightweight.   That is, except you.

For your information, I don't think any real Jazz fan buys an album based on who the drummer is.  People loved the messengers not for Blakey's drumming, but for the other personnel in the group, who were most often excellent young players.   That is, except you.

Cheers

roc please....

The legends I mentioned are still alive. You could not ask a dead legend a question. SMH

***** If you asked some of the jazz legends who are still active like Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, and Chick Corea if there exists absolutely 0 good jazz artists today because their "ears" tell them so, what do you think their reply would be ???*****

I guess your bar for 'Legend' is very low.  If these be legends, what are Armstrong, Ellington, Mingus, Basie, Young, Morgan, Miles, Trane etc....??  I assume you get the drift.

Being a Jazz fan means more than just being able to regurgitate Media hype.   We can all read for ourselves.

Btw, no one said there were 0 good Jazz artist.   The straw-man game has been played and defeated long ago on this thread.

Cheers

I can see right now that people who live in and around New York City, have absolutely no idea what the rest of the country is like. Once upon a time there were cities that had lots of nightclubs that entertained people, cities like Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, and the South Side of Chicago, which was a city unto itself with lots of jazz clubs that no longer exists; while the other half of Chicago is thriving (at least it was the last time I was there) the South Side for the most part no longer exists.

There was nothing I liked better than going to clubs in St. Louis when they existed. It's a daytime tourist thing now in order to still claim that it's a city; you want to go to the zoo or see the arch?


Pjw, I never said anything about "new jazz musicians"; I said "new jazz"; there is a difference.

Buddy Rich was my favorite drummer, and everybody else's favorite drummer in high school, but my tastes have evolved.


"Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd."


Who dat say dat, not me?


there exists absolutely 0 good jazz artists today because their "ears" tell them so, what do you think their reply would be ???

Again, who dat say dat?


I'm looking for "new jazz music"; could you post some?

O-10, a very friendly suggestion: be confident with and comfortable in what you believe to be the truth and move on.  Btw, as nsp recently pointed out a great deal of new Jazz was posted while you were away.  Check it out.  From me over just the last week or so: Michael Brecker, Donny McCaslin, Scott Robinson, Ralph Peterson, Albert Ayler, Bob Mintzer.  Nothing stereotypical about any of them.
Regards.  

This thread has been going since  02-24-2013 10:12am.  At least Four regulars that have stuck pretty much all the way.   Each closing in on 5000 posts.   
Quite a few folks have jumped in from time to time, to make  their comments.   Over 1.5 million views!!

And to the best of my knowledge, no one, and I mean NO ONE, has ever mentioned Buddy Rich until you did 3 days ago!!

Over 6 years and over 17,000 posts, and not one mention of Buddy Rich!.   I think Kenny G has at least a mention or two.  Of course NOW, The Frogman is all gaga over Rich.  How predictable..

A few corrections to follow.

Cheers

pjw, all I have to say is, thank God for Jazz fans like you.

Answer to your question: Miles

I was catching up on posts on this thread over the last week or so tonight and saw a couple of mentions of Gunther Schuller.  In addition to being a great writer/jazz historian, he was also a great composer, both of jazz and "classical" music. He organized brass groups in New York that crossed over both styles of playing and made some very interesting records.  He played my instrument, the French horn. He was actually principal horn of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and wrote a famous book on horn playing.  He was a great man and great musician.  Had the pleasure of meeting him my freshman year in college when he came to speak at my school.  He died in 2015.  He can be heard on some classic jazz albums, including Birth of the Cool. He was also good friends with the best jazz horn player of the era, Julius Watkins.  He and one of the other top orchestral horn players of the era, John Barrows, can both be heard (in a backup horn quartet) on Watkins' record entitled French Horns For My Lady, recorded for Phillips. Watkins himself was mostly a side man, as you can imagine, playing the horn, but he was leader on a few albums, notably a couple he recorded for Blue Note with a sextet he put together.  

If you asked some of the jazz legends who are still active like Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, and Chick Corea if there exists absolutely 0 good jazz artists today because their "ears" tell them so, what do you think their reply would be ???


BTW, The above artists all had one thing in common and a true jazz aficionado would know what it is.

As for Buddy Rich there are hundreds of recordings he appears on where you are not "aware he’s even there". The bulk of Buddy’s short - medium - long drum solo’s are live to please an audience who are screaming for a solo. Buddy is one of the greatest drummers to ever pick up the sticks and I cannot believe a "jazz aficionado" would think otherwise.


The OP of this thread was "Moanin" by Art Blakey and Blakey played more extended drum solo’s on his studio albums then any other jazz drummer. So the statement that "the best jazz drummers are the ones you are not aware of" is a contradiction to this thread.

Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd. 

I know many "new jazz" musicians who are good - very good - excellent. There are just not that many of them today as there was pre 1970.

I know this because my Jazz CD collection is comprised of approximately 75% pre 1970 and 25% 1970 to the present.

I support new jazz artists by buying their albums and attending live shows frequently in the jazz clubs of NYC. If there were absolutely no good jazz musicians around, as some have suggested, these clubs would not exist. But exist they do and more often then not, are packed to full capacity with jazz aficionado's.

***** I am so sick of that same old boring "stereotypical" toot toot jazz I could scream.*****

OP, you may need to vary your musical diet.

Remember Cannonball said it was all the same thing.

Scientist say Birds are actually dinosaurs.

In that spirit and context, This is Jazz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfscL_f_uyU

Listen to the end.

Cheers

Frogman, I have asked you time and time again for some new jazz, and what you have presented doesn't qualify to my ears, and they make the final decision.

The reason for this poll thing is to find something new, and as close as I can come is Charenee wade;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FMaP3hlm9E


Let me give you examples of what I called new when it came out in chronological order:

      Alice Coltrane;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQtEFdyhgdE


Don Cherry was new;



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp5mZxkeV1c


Chico Freeman "The Kings of Mali"



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFUP2LvK2s


I am so sick of that same old boring "stereotypical" toot toot jazz I could scream.

Frogman, we have no disagreement.   And I don't dislike the people involved,  or dis their efforts.  We are discussing how Jazz has changed.  All the people are just fine.   After all, If they can play middle C, they can out play me.

And some music will prevail and continue, and it will be called Jazz.  It will gain many followers, mostly young, and it will lose many followers, mostly older.    That's life.

Cheers