Jazz for aficionados
Update just ordered this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007CEXJK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and this: https://www.amazon.com/MisRy-Blues-Jack-Teagarden/dp/B0000ACAOC/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&... But still want the recommendations! |
@Pryso is our resident Jack Teagarden fan. I personally am to ignorant of Mr. Teagarden to be of help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8uEvZ63TYQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WTAQGN4_iY |
Igoler +1 for Harold Vick http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AYs2dBEbgNE http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_DQsctnqDNO And Jimmy Raney http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FBnpVxY-6kg |
pjw, while I appreciate acman’s endorsement, I do have great appreciation for Teagarden’s music, but I’m far from an expert. There are a great number of his recordings I’ve never heard. I came to love his style and tone from listening to Louie Armstrong recordings where he was a member. So influenced by that my top recommendation would be any of T’s recordings made with Armstrong’s All Stars during the late ’40s and early ’50s. The best of those I’ve heard is from their Town Hall Concert 1947 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQm-2N-TW24&list=RDfQm-2N-TW24&t=18 That is available in a couple different CD versions. I have it on LP and in a 78 album. I also like him leading his own group here on "big T swings" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9udjEXDpAg Also this album with an under appreciated trumpet player, Bobby Hackett, at least today if not during his own time - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut25CIF2a1c I have heard a couple of T’s late ’50s, early ’60s which I didn’t enjoy as much. He’d lost his touch and his groups were not as top notch from what I heard. Good luck in finding one or two that bring you great enjoyment. PS - That "Dark Eyes" suggested by acman sounds damn fine to me. |
I was listening to this today. Since I don't read poetry, at least I now know a little more about Carl Sandburg's poetry. Really nice music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5n4O_R0i8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1GlH6qpOvE |
Guess who's back? (Halfway back anyway) I have been through hell and high water, plus a little fire and brimstone to boot. "Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death; I'm just a little bit scared; cancer will do that to you". Rok baby! Where you at. (that's the southern version of "Where are you?") I have come to the conclusion that you and I agree more than we disagree on the definition of jazz, because your definition is more emotional, as opposed to Frogman's definition which is more intellectual. Jazz with an intellectual bent can be ever so good, but it lacks "Blacknuss". While that infers inferiority, it's not meant to; just a statement of fact. For example; Dave Brubeck's best jazz, of which I have a lot, and wrote about how much I was in awe of his performance at the concert he performed at an outdoor "Lady of The Snows" Shrine. I recall seeing Dave live at that free concert. It was at in front of the main shrine, on a golden, warm Fall afternoon. He was accompanied by the most beautiful modern dancers who did choreography to his music. That day was absolutely unforgettable; it was just before his last days It was amazing how we all listened in total silence and awe; we were actually witnessing Dave Brubeck at a time when all his contemporaries were long deceased and most of us thought Dave had joined them. Another interesting fact is that Pepper Adams baritone sax sounds all the way "black", which means he's got enough "Blacknuss" to loan somebody else some. "Blacknuss" is not entirely a color thing, it's also a cultural thing; Pepper Adams played with mostly black musicians when he was getting his act together. Those are just some of my "idiosyncratic" observations in regard to jazz. By the way, the big "C" affects people mentally; that means you can watch this show all the way live. |
O-10, I am glad you are back and still with us. As you may have noticed I have expressed genuine concern for your health on several occasions. I am truly happy to see your post as I and others here were genuinely concerned. Now, having said that, I must also say that I am disappointed that you still feel the need to make unnecessary judgments and characterizations about what music may mean to someone other than yourself. Very presumptuous of you and quite off the mark. “....just a statement of fact”? Hardly. To be blunt, O-10, don’t think you know what you’re talking about. I hope I don’t have to explain why someone might find such unnecessarily personalized characterizations to be offensive. As always, hoping for healthier dialogue. A sincere welcome back! |
Thanks for the Jack Teagarden recommendations and youtube links. Still waiting on the arrival of the discs I ordered. I first heard about Jack while reading a Stan Getz biography many years ago. I never bought any of his music because I'm really not into the "big band Dixie land swing." However while watching a recent episode of Bosch on Amazon I heard a nice "Big T" tune while Bosch was in the evidence room and he told the officer in charge there to turn it up because Ben Webster was about to take his solo. I really liked the tune and found it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7mp_qtPa2c Notice the reviewers also commented they heard it on Bosch! Anyway he is an awesomely talented trombone player just don't dig much of his music because of the particular jazz he usually played. Same thing with Buddy Rich. He is a great (some argue best) drummer but I don't dig a lot of his music although I love watching his solo's on youtube! |
o10, pleased to see you passed through another valley. May you now find a hilltop to rest upon and look around, enjoying all you see and hear. Brubeck: long one of my favorite musicians, but not without controversy. In my earliest days as a developing jazz fan he received lots of criticism simply because (I believe) he was so popular. I think that generated a lot of resentment, in some part racial. For me he could swing hard or show beauty and lushness in a ballad. His experiments with time and meter went beyond what anyone else I knew of. Certainly some musicians can be accused of riding the coattails of style or technique developed by others, but I don’t believe that could ever be said of Brubeck. And I find much of his music simply fun. pjw, I fully agree with your point about dixieland. That was a point I should have raised about some of Teagarden’s recordings, the ones I don’t care for either. But the man could play the blues. And while he never ventured into the bebop he did develop with what I consider more "straight ahead jazz" in the late ’40s, early ’50s, that time spent with Armstrong’s All Stars. "St. James Infirmary" and "Rockin' Chair" are prime examples. |
Frogman, that post was primarily addressed to Rok and his perceptions, which he has stated numerous times. One's perceptions may or may not have anything to do with "facts", but they are what they are. I didn't state anything as "fact". What you assumed that I stated as fact, was merely a heightened awareness of the music we call jazz as we listen to it. Rok's statements and perceptions have often eluded you, just as my post eluded you. I'm positive using Dave Brubeck's music as an example of what I was trying to get across was spot on; his music lacks "Blacknuss"; but that does not mean that on a scale from 1 to 10, some of his music does not rate a 10. As "Aficionados" of the highest order we perceive all there is to be perceived in jazz. You jumped to your conclusion by perceiving exactly what I was trying to clarify; that the level of "blacknuss" in the music does not determine the quality of the music. Since you always missinterpret my posts I'm not surprised that you did the same with this one, but since the post was in regard to Rok's perceptions no point in going any further until Rok responds. (notice no one else responded to that aspect of my post) Frogman I believe your concern for my health is sincere, even though you were eluded by something intended for Rok. |
Before I started this thread, I was exclusively self taught and my time span was limited to "BB" meaning nothing before "Bird" and to whatever was current. Now, I can live without current, that means I have to go sideways or BB to acquire new music. Jack Teagarden is a name I have been hearing all of my life, but I don't own a single one of his records or know much about his music. Since he's the subject of conversation today, I'll correct that. According to my encyclopedia he does trombone and vocals, was a dominant player in the 30's, toured with Louis Armstrong from 47 to 51 and played with his own groups after that. Now let's get to where the rubber meets the road, meaning the music. pjw, I like his music; it's just what the doctor ordered since I'm going back to that time frame I will acquire some of his music. |
o10 and pjw, I believe I posted this link previously. It is some of Satchmo and the All Stars at Newport 1958. Watch it all or skip ahead to 7:56 when Teagarden joins Louis on "Old Rockin’ Chair". They did this number together many times and I think their love and respect for one another really comes through here. T was no longer a member of the All Stars by this time but footage of them during the time he was is not easy to find. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UGFXB7ytY4 |
Pryso, the main reason I don't have much Louis Armstrong is because I considered him more of an entertainer than a musician, and I just wanted music. Although now I know I'm wrong, this confirms how I came to that conclusion. Rok posted some serious Black female pianists who were on the scene about that time and even before Louis who I was unaware of, and they had to "entertain" instead of just playing the piano; kind of like singing for their supper. What would Miles have done back in those days? |
I'm amazed at how we considered Rashan Roland Kirk just a novelty, and now we know he was pure genus; I dote on every word he speaks as well as his music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPUKskCv7E&list=RDyWPUKskCv7E&start_radio=1 |
Welcome back home OP. Things have not been the same since you left. I pray you will make a full recovery. Try to make yourself smart on all the latest treatments. It always helps you, if the Doctors know you are knowledgeable of possible treatments. The VA being what it is. *****I have come to the conclusion that you and I agree more than we disagree on the definition of jazz, because your definition is more emotional, as opposed to Frogman's definition which is more intellectual. Jazz with an intellectual bent can be ever so good, but it lacks "Blacknuss". I always knew this, I just thought that you felt as OP you had to be even-handed, and support the musical tastes of all posters. Even those of The Frogman. Speaking of 'Blacknuss', Teagarden had black hair and a dark complexion. The 'usual' explanation back in the day, was, he has 'Indian blood'. I understand black folks did the same to explain their people with straight hair and caucasian features. People are always dumping on Indians. The real cause was most likely a white/black mixture, which was a definite no-no. :) I guess being a Jazz player didn't help matters. I am still listening even when I don't post. Monk and Lester Bowie today. Question for anyone: Did Ellington know before hand, what Gonsalves would blow, during his 'interval' at Newport? Cheers Keeping you in my prayers. |
Rok, your post just made my night, it was spot on; we don't listen to jazz (meaning you and I) we perceive it. By that, I mean all the generations of musicians that went into it, before the one we're listening to, and I know Frogman can not understand that. The same goes for the Delta Blues, we can hear the suffering of the generations that lived on plantations in shotgun shacks; what can you hear when listening to Blues from the UK, it's got to be counterfeit as far as you and I are concerned. To perceive the music goes much further than simply listening to it. Since that post was primarily addressed to you, and not Frogman, he misunderstood it. I have just began my stroll through the valley of the shadow of death, therefore I have no idea what to expect, other than a lot of different doctors; I'm not going VA, and being in your prayers means a lot because I know you are a sincerely religious man. |
Orpheus10 I am truly sorry to hear of your health problem. My mom died from breast cancer at 58 yo and my younger sister died just last year from lung cancer at 50 yo (she never smoked). I have been lucky so far... Jack Teagarden's record Misry and the Blues is a really great blues/balled record with just one dixie swing tune. It really showcases his talent on the trombone and he does have cool crooning vocal ability. I am still waiting on the other record I bought here; https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007CEXJK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Quote second review: These four discs are truly the best of Jack Teagarden. The selections on all four discs are perfect, with no duds, and the engineering quality is high. The stand-out is Disc Four, which is mostly groups with Teagarden and Louis Armstrong playing together. This material (also the last 3 selections on disc 3) features both Teagarden and Armstrong at their very best, mostly in live recordings - two musicians at the peak of their games spurring each other on and taking obvious pleasure playing together. In fact, I would choose many of these selections as the "best of the best" for Louis Armstrong as well as Teagarden. It includes the very best versions I know of Armstrong classics like "Ain't Misbehavin","Rocking Chair", "Black and Blue", "Royal Garden Blues", "Mahogany Hall Stomp", and "Way Down Yonder in New Orleans". I had never heard "Fifty-fifty Blues" but it is now one of my all-time favorite Armstrong-Teagarden performances. |
o10, I don't have any Kirk recordings so you should ask someone else. And yes, Satch was certainly an entertainer. But for me that does no discredit to his musical innovations, trumpet skills, and vocal soul (did anyone scat earlier than him?). If you are interested in hearing what I'm talking about I can recommend a few other recordings in addition to the '47 Town Hall concert. Try any of "Satch Plays Fats", "Ella and Louis"/"Ella and Louis Again", "Louis Armstrong & Duke Ellington, The Great Summit/The Master Takes" (sextet, not big band), and "Ambassador Satch". Now I think you guys are being unnecessarily hard on Frog. From what I've read here I would say he not only has great knowledge of the technical aspects of music but also a deep understanding if its development and history. But he can defend himself I'm certain. rok, Teagarden was born in Texas and raised in Oklahoma but I've never read anything suggesting any Native American lineage. Regarding general ancestry, there is an interesting series on PBS, "Finding Your Roots". Many black professionals have been profiled there and a significant number have mixed blood from their family history. But that is not unique, some white professionals profiled have as well. I believe our world is more of a melting pot than many care to admit. pjw, interesting from your quote, I'm not alone in my impressions of Satch and T together. |
The 'putdown' that Pops was 'just an entertainer' was started by the so-called 'angry' progressive/noise makers from the NYC Jazz crowd. Probably brought on because of the world-wide adoration that Pops enjoyed, compare to the almost total anonymity, outside NYC, 'enjoyed' by the angry young men. He was also accused of clowning for 'the man'. Horrors!!!!! That means Pops was making too much money and appearing In too many Hollywood movies. Somewhat similar to the talk surrounding Wynton today. I am not comparing Wynton to Pops! Cheers |
"Reality", or "Hard bop in the big city", as they say today; that's what we all have to do in order to make our daily bread. When I saw "Pops", he was in the movies doing what he did; that was when I was a kid, and it was long before I got into any kind of music; consequently when I became serious about music, I thought "Pops" just clowned around. From what I can gather, all Black musicians during Pops time and before, had to "Clown around". I would appreciate it if you could find one who didn't Rok. |
Wynton is a different story; because he is "maybe" the worlds best trumpet player, we thought he would be the best jazz musician, but he fell way short. A jazz musician has to not only blow the trumpet, he also has to compose jazz, and that Wynton could not do. Now that I'm going back to Pops era, I will seriously get into his music; not just the hit music that he has, and get back to you; or you can recommend music that I give a serious listen to, although I think "Big T" includes Pops. |
From what I've read here I would say he not only has great knowledge of the technical aspects of music but also a deep understanding if its development and history. No one would argue with that, but knowledge does not give one the ability to perceive jazz, which can be compared to "osmosis"; the process of gradual or unconscious assimilation of ideas, knowledge, etc. "what she knows of the blue-blood set she learned not through birthright, not even through wealth, but through osmosis" |
Well o10, as long as you are here again I'll offer this. I'm very grateful for your site. I have interest in many genres of music but none more than jazz. And this is the only "music site" I participate in. I truly enjoy nearly all of the discussion and musical references. I'm glad when I can contribute anything and also pleased by what I learn from others. Some might call this a mutual admiration society -- ;^) -- but I think that fails to acknowledge the variety of taste, values, and perspectives this group brings together. Only the broad subject of jazz and individual knowledge thereof is common. So we all owe you a huge thanks for your inspiration to begin this site and energy and devotion to carry it forward. May you continue to do so for a long time to come. |
Good points rok. Many folks, possibly including o10, only knew of Pops from seeing "High Society" or hearing "Hello Dolly". Well, that was the Hollywood version, not the real man. If you read about his life you may come to understand something of all he went through to become successful. Can anyone say they don't hear the feeling come through in this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt3HUeg--FQ |
Pryso, for some reason I have to have the whole thing, meaning the play "Ain't Misbehaven"; one tune seems out of place, kind of like a piece of a photograph, but I'm getting into Louis Armstrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2TUlUwa3_o That's another thing about this music with me, one tune wont due it, I have to get in the groove and stay awhile for it to resonate. Come back at me with some more Lewis in the same groove. |
Someone mention Fats Waller? Speaking of a true genius that liked to cut the fool.
This is on a two CD set by the original cast (shown). Ain't got it, git it. Waller wrote and performed 'Black and Blue'. I can't find a DVD of this. Criminal. Cheers |
On a 14 hr plane trip today so have a lot of time to write, but don’t know when or if this will go out. I suppose that for reasons that should be obvious the more generous thing to do would be to ignore the judgmental and insensitive comments and characterizations of a personal nature. Comments that are not only unwarranted and totally off the mark, but that for reasons that should also be obvious (under the circumstances) are a window into the true character of those making them. And let’s not even get into the convoluted double talk. Why some here feel the need to stoop to making insensitive personal judgments about musical tastes is obvious... in the absence of substance of one’s own...diminish the other guy’s contribution. Sad. I see no purpose in participating here if I don’t remain consistent in the idea that BS re the subject of music should be pointed out. To be clear, I wouldn’t have an issue with this type of self-delusion if it weren’t accompanied by the unnecessary personal insinuations. In the absence of something really interesting to say, make some claim to some ephemeral ability to “perceive”. Give me a break. I guess I’m not feeling very generous; must be the airplane food 😝 **** we don’t listen to jazz (meaning you and I) we perceive it. By that, I mean all the generations of musicians that went into it, before the one we’re listening to, and I know Frogman can not understand that **** What a bunch of cr@p! This from someone with a very limited scope of this music and who by his own admission was never interested in any music before Charlie Parker; nor much after hard-bop. And how ironic that it has been I who has for the longest time promoted the importance of a historical perspective as a way to better appreciate one’s favorite time periods in the music and to appreciate other styles as well. “Perceive”? Right ....... Of course being able to “perceive” jazz must be the reason that O-10 has posted so much lame music. Not all of course, but enough disco and bizarre jungle music to make one cringe. **** the main reason I don’t have much Louis Armstrong is because I considered him more of an entertainer than a musician, **** What is amazing about this comment is the casualness with which it is made while being oblivious to the implications; especially since it’s author claims to be very knowledgeable about jazz. An “aficionado”, you know. Like someone professing to be a climatologist while still not knowing that the earth is round. **** Things haven’t been the same since you left **** True. There have been a lot of unacknowledged expressions of concern for O-10 and his health since he left. Two additional observations: None of the expressions of concern were by the author of the above quoted observation. And guess what else was different until that same author (or reference to him) returned? There was not one iota of negativity nor bickering here. Now, back to what really matters: **** Question for anyone: Did Ellington know before hand, what Gonsalves would blow, during his ’interval’ at Newport? **** Not exactly. No way does this question have a simple yes/no answer; music is far more nuanced than that. A musical giant and band leader like Duke Ellington, possessing such a highly developed musical acumen and knowing his sidemen as intimately as he did, might have a pretty good idea of how a player might shape a solo; or, that he would build it around a specific musical fragment (short melody). Oh, sorry....there’s that intellectual stuff again. Let’s see....let me try “perceiving” instead.......................trying.............................nope..............not working for me. So, while Duke may not have known exactly what, nor all that Gonsalves would play there would probably be times during the solo that Duke would know where he was going. Perhaps even exactly where he was going. Players sometimes go through phases on a short or long term basis while exploring certain musical ideas A player might go through a phase when he might like to play specific note choices over certain chords. Like a chef, for instance, might go through a phase when he likes to use a lot of cinnamon. And this is just one example in the domain of harmony. There are just as many possibilities (or more) in the domain of rhythm. Paul Gonsalves had a pretty advanced harmonic concept especially for a player rooted primarily in the swing tradition. One of his favorite solo techniques was taking a short musical fragment and transposing it into different keys as the chord progression of the tune demanded. That fact alone would give Duke a pretty good idea of what Golsalves might play at any given point in a solo. Think of it this way. What is soloing at its most basic? Improvised musical expression. Think about the writing or speaking styles of someone you know extremely well. Often, one knows what that person is going to say; and, certainly in the middle of a comment, where that person might be going. Hope that wasn’t too much intellect(ual) for you. You asked. Now, to my way of thinking it should be obvious by now that the reason I bother making these comments is not that I care particularly about what O-10 or Rok think about my musical tastes. What I do care about is the way that a certain mistaken idea continues to be promulgated that, while fine (if extremely limiting) for anyone individual, is used as a way to build up one’s own experience at the expense and judgment of another’s experience. The idea that knowledge, or having an intellectual ELEMENT as part of one’s listening experience will somehow and necessarily impede the appreciation of the emotional component in music is utter nonsense. This aversion to this aspect of the listening experience is a personal choice and may or may not be a product of one’s personality or may be simple intellectual laziness. I won’t judge the validity of anyone’s approach to the listening experience, and I expect the same. Best wishes with your treatment, O-10. And, btw, you’re welcome. Sent from my iPhone |
pryso, I enjoyed the short video link you posted up thread. I believe it could be from this DVD: https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Summers-Day-Mahalia-Jackson/dp/B00003OSU4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=153... frogman I don't know how you could write such a long post with the tiny tabs on a smart phone!...I guess I have chubby fingers. Anyways I have flown from NY to Tokyo no layovers which is 15 hours so I sympathize with you. However I was primed because I had flown from NY to Rio de Janeiro a dozen times or more before my trip to Japan. " I won’t judge the validity of anyone’s approach to the listening experience, and I expect the same. " I feel the same. However this is a public forum and people have a right to voice their opinions. That said I think if one dislikes certain music they should critic the music not the person who likes it. |
I have chubby fingers too, pjw; maybe it helps that what I do professionally requires a lot of finger dexterity. Those trips to Asia are a little tough, but back on the ground now. I completely agree with your comments. Not only should we feel free to express dislike of any music posted in a respectful manner, but its even better if specific details can be given for the reasons why. And that has, unfortunately, been the cause of a lot of unnecessary defensiveness and bickering here. For instance, if someone dislikes the music simply because the playing is sub-par and gives details why, the fact that the technical details can be provided are automatically equated by some with the inability to “feel the emotion” of the music. The person who can describe the technical elements or technical flaws is thought to be incapable of feeling the emotion (perceiving”?); ever. What a bunch of nonsense and copout. Sheer intellectual laziness and so unfortunate since it is just the opposite. |
frogman Well said I concur completely with your statements and do not have anything to add. And I agree with you and pjw that the music should be addressed if someone does not like it and not have personal biase towards an individual. If someone posts something I am not interested in or don't like I usually will not say anything . |
