Is there a problem with Decca's new packaging for vinyl records?

@mahler123 

No, they are not sold together.

I ordered the vinyl and the CD versions as separate line items in the same order.  They were shipped in one package, along with other vinyl records from Hyperion.

The vinyl was about 250% more expensive than the CD,

By way of background, I am trying to find out for myself if analogue (vinyl) really is better than digital, for well-recorded classical music (where I have a very good idea of what it should sound like!).

I don't expect vinyl to come anywhere close to multi-channel SACD, so when I discover a recording that I want to buy, my rules are to go for the SACD if the recording is available on SACD.  Otherwise, if it is on vinyl and unlikely to be a frequent play, I buy the vinyl.

In this case, the performance is stunningly good and Decca does not issue it on SACD.  So for the first time in my life, I bought the CD and vinyl versions simultaneously.  Unfortunately, because of packaging damage or transit damage, the vinyl is almost unlistenable.  The vinyl was first released on March 24, 2023, before my previous Decca records (Beethoven Triple Concerto) which was released on October 4, 2024.  It came in a normal paper liner and is fine. 

I now have a dilemma because I want to buy Decca's Flying Dutchman (release date April 18, 2025) and Britten cello works (release date May 9, 2025).

As for my quest to answer the analogue / digital dilemma, I have discovered that

1. a lot of vinyl has gone through a digital stage so a lot of the hype is based on bulldust
2. I could almost instantly pick when my player was outputting multi-channel at CD quality rather than at SACD quality
3. I am now pretty agnostic to whether CD or vinyl is playing

No doubt a chorus will strike up to say that I should be streaming. I do download from Presto Classical (monthly subscription) if I am uncertain that I will like a performance. But as far as I am aware, no streaming service gets anywhere near SACD quality for classical music.

@faustuss 

Thanks for your input.  I am not sure what mass market records are?

I decided to go down the aqueous cleaning route, particularly using a contact-free ultrasonic cleaner.  See @antinn's book Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press.

In my opinion much of the debris collected by records is sub microscopic - in other words, it cannot be resolved using a conventional visible light-microscope.

However, the damage done to the Decca records in transit is not just the creation of detritus through abrasion of the liner.  In my opinion, the debris has been ground into the grooves causing physical damage akin to scratches.  No amount of cleaning can fix a scratch!

@mahler123 

One of the great things about this forum for me is that I frequently learn new things!

For example, I have just discovered that what I thought was a British independent label, Hyperion, was actually bought by the Universal Music Group in March 2023 - see UNIVERSAL MUSIC GROUP ANNOUNCES ACQUISITION OF LEGENDARY CLASSICAL LABEL HYPERION RECORDS - UMG.

In the classical music space UMG also owns Decca and Deutsche Grammophon (DG), which explains why I see Decca recordings on Hyperion's website!  It may also explain why I cannot buy SACDs from Decca or Hyperion (35 listed, most deleted).  Now that the Berliner Philharmonika runs its own label featuring the multi-channel Digital Concert Hall I hardly see anything new I want to buy from DG.

So many other great labels are powering ahead with SACD including 2L, BIS, Chandos, Dacapo, LSO Live. Pentatone, Reference Recordings, etc.

Yes, I am totally convinced that well recorded classical SACDs should always be better than well recorded classical CDs.  For a start, most actually contain the CD version, as well as 2-channel and multi-channel Direct Stream Digital (DSD).  What have you got to lose? 

I am also totally convinced that DSD is better than PCM on theoretical, commercial and listening grounds.  Getting monotonic linearity from PCM is impossible unless it is converted to DSD using sigma-delta techniques.  If DSD isn't better, why would Sony and Philips, who designed the Redbook CD specification, have produced a revolutionary new format they intended to replace CDs?  It is a pity North Americans did not warm to the 'new' format 17 years ago.

I have told this story before, but on a whim, I bought a Reavon universal player.  My test SACD is Hyperion's Shostakovich Piano Concertos, in particular the very quiet second movement of the second concerto.  When I played this through the Reavon's DACs it had none of the air and sparkle I was used to.  On delving deeper, it turned out that the Burr Brown DACs were being fed DSD down-converted to 16-bit PCM and the lack of quality was almost immediately obvious to me, though no reviewer has picked it up!  (Fortunately the DACs in my pre-processor handle native DSD delivered via HDMI just fine),

 don’t mean to be snarky here but somehow you have imbibed the propaganda that vinyl is a higher resolution medium than bog standard CD

Far from it.  I stopped buying vinyl as soon as CDs came out.  My interest in vinyl has been re-kindled when I found out how much my old Garrad 301 table is fetching second hand (and the ridiculous prices for new old stock!).  I suspect one reason they are valued is that they can be adjusted to start and stop in a fraction of a second.  I have spent several thousand upgrading the Garrard and it now sounds to me to be about the same quality as a good CD player.  No doubt I could spend tens of thousands and do significantly better.  I have even recently bought my Hyperion test track on vinyl but sadly it will never match the SACD.

I am old enough to have watched manufacturers who did not have a digital offering dump on digital, and HiFi retailers sniff when I wanted them to play a CD.  Those same retailers today, when asked to demonstrate components worth as much as Porsches, reach for their iPhones to stream digital!

I am agnostic when it comes to vinyl but was pleasantly surprised when my dealer had a B&W speaker evening and in one room, was playing vinyl through a Holbo air bearing, linear tracking deck.  It even managed to make B&W speakers sound OK!

@mahler123 

Your post prompted me to check out Deutsche Grammophon’s website.  They now seem to concentrate on vinyl, often from their back catalogue.  And they list new recordings from their Decca colleagues.  So their owner, UMG, obviously sees more profit from vinyl, which at 250% the price of the equivalent CD, makes some sort of sense.

Having said that, they also offer digital downloads including Dolby Atmos, so all is not lost!

That’s why I spend most of my hard-earned on silver disks from 2l, BIS, Chandos, LSO Live and the Berliner Philharmonika!

@mahler123

There are over 70 recordings of the 2nd Piano Concerto listed on Presto Classical, complete with reviews from many sources including the Gramophone.  I take note of those labelled Recommended!

My Hyperion SACD is no longer available, but the vinyl has just been released.  For a long time I have followed a personal rule - if I see something I like, buy it.  You never know when it will be withdrawn!

You mention high res - can you tell me how many channels and the format, please?

@lordmelton

Thanks - I seem to remember Sidcup as a station between Hastings and London?

Must admit I am quite content with standard CDs.  I don't buy arguments about better timing, after all CDs have to feed a 2k buffer just to get the error detection and correction to operate.  There may be some analogue effects if the tracking servos need to work hard, but my CD spinners are transports only.

To me the differences between well recorded CDs and well recorded SACDs for classical music are readily apparent, especially as you normally get the CD layer when you buy the SACD and these days the price is about the same!

@mahler123

SACDs seem around 25% higher on Amazon

That's why I mainly buy from Presto Classical in England!  Obviously any price comparison is a generalisation and I am talking about classical music from European companies where for many labels, SACD is mainstream rather than a gimmick.

Presto often has special offers.  My navigation path is Classical > SACD > Special Offer.  There are currently nearly 2,000 results ... see

Classical Music SACDs - On Offer (page 1 of 49) | Presto Music

I recently bought all Beethoven's symphonies, all Prokofiev symphonies, and two complete sets of Sibelius symphonies on new SACDs for under A$150, less than US$100 in total!

@mahler123 

Have you found any new CD with the same performance released on SACD?  I can see little point because the SACD usually includes the CD.

I am mentally comparing recent full-price purchases of SACDs from BIS and Chandos against recent full-price CDs from Decca and they are remarkably similar.

There is however a huge price jump for vinyl - about 250%.

Because I live in a country that believes in free-trade, I won't be hit with tariffs!  Might even find Australian prices going down because other countries find us easy to trade with ...

Just received my latest order from Presto and Decca's recent release on vinyl of Shostakovich's Cello Concerto has the same new-fangled inner sleeves, only the folded inner tab is not as well glued in.  Will report once I have cleaned and played these records.

@mahler123 

No, they will have been mastered as hi-res digital files and then made available as hi-res downloads, CDs and vinyl.

@mahler123 

I have read all the stuff supplied by Decca with my latest purchases of vinyl and CDs.  There is absolutely nothing about the technology used!  Only the recording dates and venues.  So what I wrote is a guess, but an educated one!

By comparison, BIS and Chandos go to great lengths to document the microphones they use, digital formats, etc.  2L even state why they archive in high resolution DSD - they can create any PCM format from it.

@mahler123 

Seems to me that Decca is ignoring the audiophile market completely.  They have some outstanding classical musicians on their books, and some outstanding performances are being captured.  

In their heyday Decca introduced ffrr or Full Frequency Recording Range which was hugely successful from a marketing perspective.  I still use Decca analogue recordings (delivered on CD or via digital streaming) to evaluate sound quality.

I am on a personal journey to find out what all the fuss about vinyl is really about.  In the classical world, not much so far.

Decca has an advantage over more audiophile labels for me when it comes to vinyl, because unlike them it does not offer the more tempting SACD or multi-channel formats.

I can understand why some folk prefer the extra noises from vinyl playback, just as some prefer the extra harmonics added by 'warm' tubes.  I do not think vinyl is "the closest approach to the original sound" though!

@mahler123 

Vinyl is not just for audiophiles!  Surveys have shown that many vinyl purchasers do not even own a turntable. Aldi sells vinyl, for goodness sake.

My comment was aimed at the lack of any information from Decca about the recording chain used.

In one sense this might be a good thing, because the only way to evaluate the product is by listening to the results, not on in-built biases ... the MOFI scandal shows how reliable biases can be

@mahler

How about those cheap turntables that have streaming USB output?  They must have cheap Analogue to Digital Converters far below the quality available to record producers.

I am not a fan of streaming over USB under the best of circumstances.

But some really cheap turntables include Bluetooth which still cannot handle CD quality digital.  Beats me ...