Stanhifi, how can say that if you have not heard the NWO-1? Are you coming to the CES show by any chance? If so, please plan on dropping by my room. Then we will discuss this again.
Regards,
Alex |
Once again I find myself wondering: how do people KNOW something? In this case how aplhifi knows that (his?)digital stacks up to "cost no object vinyl" (by which I'd assume he means the best?), or how stanhifi knows that aplhifi doesn't have a player that would beat stan's vinyl (which is?). I never cease to be amazed at comments without explicit clarification. I respond to these particular examples because they are so diametrically opposed. I wonder if either is willing to offer any "evidence" - or at least details of head to head controlled comparisons. Probably not, I imagine, thus leaving me (and everyone, I guess) with...hmmm...not very useful personal opinions from two people. Hmmm (again)...my opinion is that cassettes are far better than everything in the world : ) |
Chrisla, was the UX-1 broken in? If it sounded distinctly metallic, it was likely not yet broken in. Furthermore, UX-1 is a musically compromised unit. It's brother, the X-01, should sound a lot better for music reproduction, with twice the DAC chips (4 per channel). Like the EMM, it does not support DVD nor video. Costs the same as UX-1. Will need approx 700 hrs of break in on redbook alone to sound correct. X-01 is extremely sensitive to PCs. . . and so is I suspect EMM. Try Shunyata Helix series Anaconda or Python on them. . . you may be in for a treat. |
Sorry Alex you're simply incorrect. The margin is narrowing but vinyl still rules. Maybe some day your digital players will equal my analog set up but not now. |
Okay, here was my final buy:
The contenders were Ayre CX-5, Esoteric UX-01, Sony ns999 in home theatre and the EMM labs combo.
The DCC-2 combo was most realistic, most holographic of them all, the Esoteric X-01 was very "metallic", not a great sound stager, I think there is some high frequency wierdness. The sony did not get much inner detail, it is not balanced (which the rest of my system is) and was not so lifelike. I like to evaluate with the sound of saxophones, trumpets and strings... the airiness of the sax, the "blatt" as they say of the trumpet, and the rich harmonics of the strings are things I am most attuned to.
The Ayre got better on warmup... but the combo of the Ayre with an Audio Research Ref 2 was not near as"lifelike" as the emm combo. I removed the ARC and a set of cables when using the EMM Labs... as I still have the Ayre, my next step is trying it as a transport. I also had a Wadia 861 in the system, very smooth, great inner detail, musical, but ultimately not as involving as the UX-01 or EMM Labs.
I started upgrading my system a year ago, and with the addition of the EMM Labs piece, I feel no need for upgrade (at least this month) A good byproduct for me is that some CDs that I found unlistenable with any of the other contenders are very listenable now. Which from a strict audiophile point of view may be bad, but from my point of view, being able to listen to my entire collection so far is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
The only thing I wish is that I had a chance for the new DCS piece to go head to head with the EMM Labs.
As part of this I compared Synergistic Designer Reference to harmonix magic woofer cables, absolutely no comparison. The Synergistic trounced them in every way but a slight loss in gain.. much more refined and extended in the top end. |
Well I think the vinyl vs digital debate is really a dead issue...digital has made great advances and yet some still prefer vinyl and I respect that but so what at the some time. For me personally, I gave up vinyl long ago for convenience of playback, storage of software etc...and now added is the ability to burn, rip etc onto other portable deivices so I can have music for everywhere I go. Enuff said. |
Stanhifi,
..."Vinyl still kicks the snot out of bits and bytes".....
The above is no longer the case, and I am talking about cost no object vinyl. :-)
Happy Holidays to you too!
Regards,
Alex |
"Sure Stan, if that makes you happy" G. |
Guido, faith based audiophilia is just that, smoke and mirrors for the faint (digital) of heart. Vinyl still kicks the snot out of bits and bytes but the margin is narrowing. Happy holidays. |
Stan, with the exception of 5, which is only a Seasonal Cheer, all answers are somewhat fitting and pretty well equivalent. Although I admit of being rather fond of 2. How about trying Faith-based Audiophilia on for size? |
Guido,
Which of your answers do you think is the least incorrect? I'd go with that one. |
Stan, there are several ways to answer:
1. Sure thing, if it makes you happy.
2. Sounds like faith-based audiophilia to me.
3. "Credo, ergo esst!"
4. Watch your induction step Stan, I think you are missing a couple pieces!
5. And how was Thanksgiving turkey?
G. |
KarmaPolice, I was not attempting to disparage EMM, on the contrary. . . it is my experience that high quality front ends benefit from high quality PCs. My recent experience with Teac X-01 seems to corroborate this hypothesis, whereas I achieved best results witha Shunyata Python Helix VX and an Anaconda Alpha (non Helix) as a close 2nd. I can only conjecture that Anaconda Alpha helix may be even superior. I just can't see any reason why EMM should be any less sensitive than X-01 to PCs. |
Stanhifi,
I wonder what you can get in an analogue system for under 10 that can crush the EMM. Let me add it up in terms of parts.
Cartridge $2000
Turntable $2000
Tonearm $2000
Phonostage $2000
Cables & record cleaning machine $2000
We are at $10,000.00 very fast.
Under 10K we can do as follows; Nottingham Spacedeck w. Space arm & an OK cartridge. It will get close but it won't have the balance of the EMM Gear. It probably will excel in many areas but lack in many as well. The EMM is tough to outdo on SACD. If you want to find out fly down & try it. I will put an inexpensive cartridge & tonearm on my system & see what it brings. The problem is you need to spend a lot to get true deep bass from vinyl & not sacrifice anything else. |
It wasn't meant to be profound Guido (chuckles); it simply is a fact. A good table/tonearm/cartridge combo will smoke those turkey bits and bytes. Now that's profound(smile). |
Oh wow! That was so awesomely profound Stan. . . are you having a good turkey dinner today? (chuckles!) |
You guys really think changing out the power cord on the emm labs gear makes a difference?
I thought buying the emm labs gear which costs serious coin meant getting the best dac and transport out there. If you think their power cord is not up to snuff than are you not doubting the entire product? Has anyone contacting emm labs to ask them if they considered the power cord to be a weak link or something that could or should be upgraded?
Mike |
I have heard the Meitner twice and find it excellent. I think however any discussion about the ultimate CD transport/DAC combo must include the Burmester gears, especially my current reference the 979/980 combo. Much has been made about the price of the 969/970 combos which is arguably very high then again the Rockport Sirius was >$75K...Its little brother, the 979/980 is about as good and fully competitive in term of price in line with DCS and the likes…around $25K list price..
This said, 10 K in turntables IMHO is musically superior to any current digital combos I have heard... Digital is moving fast though, eventually, it will surpass what we are getting from analogue, probably a super DVD-A, say a linear PCM with higher frequency sampling >=192 KHz 24 bits... |
>>I wouldn't run & buy an analogue setup unless you are willing to spend at least 10-15K on the setup.<<
One can spend far less on an analogue system that will crush the EMM. |
Dgad, I do not run vinyl at all, thus my comment was inherently tainted. You may try though the new Helix chords both on your vinyl and your digital rigs. They are considerably better than the old series and they are at least worth a listen and a comparison with your Elrods. |
Guidocorona & Oneobgyn,
I am using Elrod Signature power cords. I haven't tried the others you have both mentioned but believe firmly in my Elrod cables. I find they significantly improve the sound on everything I have tried them so far. I have some other cords that I did compare & it was an immediate difference, too significant to go back.
On to the question at hand. Using Elrod power cords on both my Vinyl & EMM set, on SACD it is very close. On CD though it is significant. In either case w. my analogue system there is just no doubt. Analogue is better. Not by much consistently, and on some recordings CD is better, but for the most part vinyl is definitely better.
What analogue systems did you both compare in your systems to your EMM setup?
P.S. I love the EMM gear & never thought analogue would be better. Once I upgraded my phono preamp & cartridge there just was no doubt.
I am not trying to start the SACD/CD/Analogue debate. It is more about just knowing the truth.
Mind you, w. EMM gear, I wouldn't run & buy an analogue setup unless you are willing to spend at least 10-15K on the setup. Otherwise you will fall short. I wonder if some others can chime in here. |
I actually run Nordost Valla AC Power cords on my EMM Labs gear and I would agree. IMO there is just no reason to go back to vinyl |
DJad, try a pair of Shunyata Helix Anaconda Alphas on your EMM boxes. Then let us know if they are still playing second fiddle to your vinyl rig. |
OneObGin, have you actually auditioned the ARC CD7? |
I used to think it was amazing. Now I just think it is amazing until you listen to great vinyl. My vinyl front end is back & is better. I don't mind listening to Digital nowadays as I did before but the Emm combo is not as good as top notch vinyl. I guess there is room for improvement. Is it possible is the question. SACD is great though & very very close. CD is more distant. |
The Reference CD7 is indeed excellent but not in the same league as the Meitner stack. My advice to have the best of both is to get the ARC Ref 3 preamp and use with the Meitner stack. This is what I have in my system and I wouldn't trade it for anything. No need for vinyl |
Is the EMM DAC6e or DCC2 /CDSD the best out there?
I think it would be hard for anyone to answer this question, not so much because audio is so subjective, but because there is just so much out there.
I'm trying to pick a handful of DACs to audition and now ARC comes along with a new CDP:
" the Reference CD7 breaks new ground with a gain stage taken directly from the REF3, incorporating the latest proprietary capacitor technology found only in Audio Research Reference components.
Using four 6H30 triodes, the audio stage features high voltage regulation using an additional three 6H30s, coupled to a massive power supply." |
I have just posted a mini review outlining sonic differences on Esoteric X-01 when powered alternatively by Epiphany and Shunyata helix Python VX. See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1126432063&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona |
Elnerth 2: I noticed in a different thread u had not used the ST cable btwn the Meitner transport and DAC or DCC2. Huge, huge difference. Try it out. |
Elberoth2...well I guess we just disagree on what we respecitvely heard. Perhaps due to system matching. But yes EMM to me has far more "openess" and sense of air around the instruments...and that is what I like about it. Disagree about mid range as well though dCS may had more solid bass (not necessarily more tight). At any rate, each to his own: at this level all Ithink are really good and its about tastes and system matching |
Why so little mention of models that don't upsample and don't use filters: i.e. Zanden and Audio Note?
Just curious. |
I agree with Mgottlieb. Having owned the earlier dCS combo and then the Verdi/Purcell/Elgar + , I found CD on my Forsell MK IV transport was substantially better sounding with the dCS gear than the Verdi. Of course, the Forsell is idiosyncratic as hell and no longer in production. |
Elberoth2--late 2004 vintage Verdi. DCS indicatd that a separate Verdi and Purcell DSD would marginally outperform the combo, though I'm not sure in what respect. Since I already had the Purcell, that was fine with me. Guido, nice to chat again. I'm not a PC guy; been through NBS, Dominus, a couple of Shunyatas, and I don't remember what else, and always felt that all they ever did was change the sound, not improve it. One somewhere in the system might seem to help, but a second was always too much of something. I'm sticking with my ten Absolute power cords--they do no harm. I don't blink at thousands of dollars for Dominus speaker cables and the same for a half dozen pair of balanced ICs, but can't justify significant PC bucks. Sure, I know a lot of people differ, but my ears hear what they hear. Maybe my Burmester line conditioner does the work some PCs do. |
Mgottlieb -> are you referring to the original dCS Verdi transport or the newer Verdi LaScala ? |
Very intriguing findings MGottlieb, have you been using Purist Dominus PC on the X-01? Have you tried any other PCs on it, such as Shunyata Anaconda VX and Electraglide Epiphany and what were the perceivable differences?
As I installed X-01 on Oct 15th, My unit has now over 400 hours of redbook playtime on it in repeat mode and is still sweetening, while opening up audibly.
Even through its stock power chord, a ludicrous Audioquest Quartz RCA between it and my aging LS2B, yesterday, playing works by Gibbons performed by the Rose Consort, my jaw was seriously losing altitude: treble, alto, tenor, and bass viols, positif organ and cembalo were simply staggering.
If the hypothetical addition of DCS processors opened the stage any further, this would bleed through the walls into the yard next door, and my neighbours would accuse me undoubtedly of pernicious invasion of privacy. |
Couldn't resist adding a few thoughts of my own. These comments are addressed just to the question of performance, not purchase recommendations and especially not what makes sense for the $ involved.
dCS: I have had an early Purcell and Elgar and now a Purcell DSD and Elgar Plus. Operating in DSD the later versions are vastly superior to the originals, particularly if you acquire the $169(?) aftermarket firewire cable advertised on Audiogon. But I'm afraid that the Verdi simply isn't on the same level; the minute I inserted the demo into my system, the sound became thinner, brighter and more forward--amazing detail and space, but I couldn't live with it. The Purcell DSD and Elgar Plus are still the best redbook sound I've heard with the right transport, but I had to give up the Elgar's SACD performance.
Esoteric X-01: Wonderful SACD, much preferable to the dCS SACD sound with the Verdi in the system. Perhaps not the very last bit of spaciousness and depth, but very close. And the difference the X-01 as a transport feeding the dCS Purcell and Elgar Plus in redbook over the Verdi in sound balance and dynamic range is extraordinary. Very good CD sound of its own, but simply not as good as when feeding the dCS units through the digital outs. And yes, this puppy sounds much, much better after 750-1000 discs than it did at first. But beware: even after extensive break-in this is the most ruthlessly honest component I've ever heard. Quality of disc, and top to bottom balance of cables and amplification, are critical.
EMM: All of the above comparisons were through my system (Purist Dominus cables, Rowland Synergy IIi preamp, Mac 501 power amps, Eggleston Andra II speakers). I've heard EMM units twice, but unfortunately in other systems. A 6e being fed with a $10,000 plus CEC transport and Dominus cables sounded fabulous in one system (redbook only, of course); an EMM pair (DCC2)in a superb system (Tenor/Kharma) had amazing detail, but sounded lightweight and lacking in bass and impact, in SACD but even more so in redbook, to the point I had no interest in seeking a demo in my system. (Probably that was a bad decision, but who has time to do all of this right?)
In fact, it's my own impression that neither dCS nor EMM has managed to match the extraordinary quality of their DACs with comparable transports, but the one thing I'm sure of is that there are no completely relevant comparisons except in your own system. As to how to get them, well, good luck. But these are my experiences, for what they're worth to anyone but me. |
IUJONA, I thought Lyric had EMM Labs, but I may be wrong. I also vaguely remember Audio Outlet (914--666-0550) may be carrying EMM. Worth a call. |
dCS goes even further in terms resolution, detail to my ears but again lacks the special air around the instruments or color of timbre. Henryk -> an interresting comment. To my ears it is the EMM that was a resolution and openess champ. The dCS was slightly behind EMM in that regard, but offered much better balanced sound overall. The EMM was almost "too open" for it's own good, his midrange lacked body and texture compared to latest dCS offerings. I found EMM cold and uninvolwing in comparision. Both me and my audio buddy were to buy EMM after reading all the internet rewiewvs (hey - I even got the proforma infoice for EMM at the time), but after comparing it extensively to dCS for over TWO WEEKS we decided against it. My buddy eventually got the latest dCS stack (which was twice as expensive as EMM) and since I could not afford dCS at the time and did not like the EMM, I got AA Capitole mk II instead and upgraded it to SE status. |
But they dont audition EMM Labs... |
Gee, Iujona, I haven't. But then I'm the Chicago area and know how I like to be treated, having been a customer for many years before crossing over to the dark side :-) |
HenryHK, I forgot to mention that during the Panther/Sky X-01 audition the X-01 was powered through an AudioQuest NRG5, which in itself accentuates treble response. In the Cardas Neutral Ref vs AQ Sky situation I have had the X-01 equipped with its own stock powerchord, which puts it at a relative soundstage, imaging resolution, and sweetness disadvantage if compared against players equipped with an aftermarket chord. In either case, I have been concentrating on RedBook performance, as I own but one single SACD. I am not in a position to offer any meaningful findings on SACD performance of X-01 yet.
IUJONA, I have had several occasions to audition equipment at SoundBySinger in NYC and always been delighted by their professionalism. My first exposure to X-01 was in fact at Andy Singer's shop in NYC as well. |
You obviously havent dealt with NYC dealers!!! |
Very interesting, indeed. |
Henryhk, it is quite possible that the X-01 may have either more treble energy or a more extended treble than the EMM.
It is also possible that the X-01 may generate by itself some treble distortion. Yet I have at least some indication that treble harshness or distortion in the X-01 may be caused by some ICs mismatch instead. . . e.g. I have experienced it with both AWQ Panther and Cardas neutral reference.
In either situations the treble distortion has largely gone away by replacing the front-end to linestage length of Panther with an AudioQuest Sky.
I am qualifying with 'largely, because in both situations there was occasional residual harshness, but the 2nd length of IC had not been replaced by a higher quality one.
Oddly enough with the insertion of the single length of Sky, not only distortions were largely removed, but the treble became more extended. It would have been very interesting to audition also an EMM under identical circumstances. |
Guidocorona, I must admit I do not know for sure how long the break in was but I suspect well enough given I had loaned a the demo model from a dealer. I am more of a jazz, blues, rock person though I do love Bach for some reason. I generally agree with what you are saying but my own personal exp with X-01 was very good, I do think it lacked what I described before: it had "hard" character if you know what I mean though I must stress this was only to a minor degree and in relation to Meitner. At least that was my own experience: I also listened to it over 3 hours or so as the dealer had to take it away: perhaps more time with it would have chnaged my mind. At any rate, I personally just think the capability of best of what digital has offer has sigificantly improved over very recent years including Esoteric, Meitner, Ayre, and the likes. At this level, its not about better and that was why I said I "prefer". I did think after all Esoteric was better at retrieving inner detail at times, though I may be mistaken. I believe JA at Sterophile's measurements showed the Estoeric gear rolled of high frequencies on SACD playback rather quickly: I wonder that has anything to do with it, though I am no measurement freak either. My old players were ML and Camelot Techonology stuff before the upgrade to Meitner and for that I am absolutely sure there was huge improvement! Its matter of preference and system matching. |
Henryhk, how many hours of breakin did the Esoteric X-01 you listen to have when you compared it against the EMM? Detailed and slightly digital sounding are the typical features of the creature when it is not completely broken in. Conversely, once broken in, X-01 excels in the very size of the stage in the three dimensions, the sense of separation and air around the instruments, and the decaying resonance from the venue and from the instruments. String players will tell you you can hear the 'sound of the Rosen' in quiet passages. Whether it is digital or analog sounding is not terribly material, however what is true is that it is very sensitive to recordings that have been equalized with an artificial treble boost to compensate for poor equipment. Recordings with flat equalization more typical of some classical recordings sound absolutely marvellous. : try J. S. Bach's suite #6 for cello played by M. Rostropovich and you will hear what I am talking about.
Yet, not having heard the EMM, I am not qualified to make any better/worse comparisons. |
if you are serious about the best digital then you'd have to include Exemplar 3910 ModWright esoteric x-01 possibly the Reference Mod SCD-1 and of course the APL 3910. the apl is arguably the best digital in the world. it isn't cheap but also isn't expensive when compared to the EMM and some others.
only problem is you have to get on their waiting list for the APL 3910.
this posting may answer your question.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1102095173&openflup&12&4#12
but first you have to carefully read and analyze the post just of it. |
Personally I definitely prefer Meitner over Esoteric and dCS. Esoteric does excel on inner detail, but Meitner is far better in terms of transparency and just a general sense of openess. In way it sounded if Meitner had a larger sound stage, both left to right and front to back. Also better at transients & decay. Esoteric was v good at resolution, inner detail, dynamics but lacked that sense of naturalness if you will. dCS goes even further in terms resolution, detail to my ears but again lacks the special air around the instruments or color of timbre. In a way, I guess Esoteric and dCS sound like GREAT digital but Meitner approxiametes analogue LPs. At least that has been my own experience so far.
Zanden, Reimyo, I have not tried but hear great things about them: however they do not provide SACD capability, which of course may not matter to you. Zanden though if you want the full set up will cost you!
I also think that not only is the Ayre 5xe (2 channel universal) very very good indeed, but among all the high end players best value for money. Personally prefer it over Esoteric. I already have the Meitner gear, the Ayre is my top choice for second system I am considering building.
Whatever the case, you really need to audition them yourself. At this level, all are exceptionally good, and a lot depends on your own tastes. |
Iujona, why would you have to spend $60k to try some of the players suggested? I wouldn't expect to have to buy a car just to take a test drive. Perhaps some dealers in NYC where you are charge a fee for a home audition, but that's entirely different from requiring you to buy it. |
This thread is for constructive comments on EMM Labs CDSD and DAC6e and not for you to air your bad experiences with shipping whatever to whoever.
My comments are valid. Unless I have $60k handy to buy and test out all the top quality transports and DAC's, the starting point would be reviews and other people's findings and comments.
Lets keep discussions to the thread's title PLEASE. |
