Is SACD really this lousy?

Albert-yes you are right.I guess Im tired of being bashed here and want to give a little back.You are always level headed and a true gentleman.By the way,you were right about Telefunkens,they are AWESOME!! I call for a truce.

Jmazur, thanks for your noble-turned-riotous thread. For whatever reason, the LP fans seem the most hostile people in here. Their need to inflict pain on others as well as themselves is, well, painful. In striking contrast, CD listeners appear far more serene. Please let's have your follow-up once you tune in your SACD. Hang in there.

I believe studies have shown differently.

David; as I enjoy reading about stereo matters, and would like to follow up, would you please cite the "studies" to which you refer in your above post. Thanks. Craig.

I personally try to not be hostile about LP. I think the main aggravation for me is the fact that primarily, it is all but dead. The main music companies have all but quit producing vinyl (Yes, the new Neil Young is great and Santana's album too) but, for the most part, we've been robbed. The reason for anger? How about you work and work and get the sound so perfect, that you can listen to anything you own in your library. I mean from LP's that are forty years old, to Jimi Hendrix, to the Cranberries, and Daniel Lanois. I am referring to sound so good, that visitors cannot speak for fear of interrupting the music. Then, you get ask for new music by KD Lang, or Matchbox 20, or someone else who is a group of the 90's. You cannot play it, because it does not exist on LP. You can play the CD, it is OK in your car, but on a ultra high end system that you have extracted all the performance out of for LP, it bites to play CD. I think the description of us (me) is closer to frustration, aggravation, disappointment, and confusion. Why don't the music companies produce both formats and let us choose? The answer is because music is now MANUFACTURED, not CREATED. Digital allows extreme manipulation of the signal, you can repair tone in a flat singers voice, you can fake anything the label wants, you can overdub as many times as necessary to make something out of nothing. The hard work and production perfection by the artist and producers to craft something real has been replaced by quick and convenient techniques that are extremely cost efficient. It should not come as a surprise in an our era, as everything has come to this. I guess the problem is that some of us would still like to hold on to something that is perfect. That is a lot of what a hobby is. A labor of love. It is a shame that we don't get more choices, and that the quality is determined by bottom line. For those of you that have not experienced having a system built on a format that has reached perfection, but no longer is viable for new music, be happy that what you have satisfies you.

Well said Albert, I couldn't agree more, especially about Sony. I'm perhaps less frustrated than all of you, because I can enjoy both vinyl and CD. That's my problem, I enjoy listening to the stereo TOO much, and never get any other chores or projects done......................JMAZUR, I'm all for having a dialog without insults, and I'M OPEN TO DISCUSS ANYTHING AUDIO RELATED. Let's discuss something perhaps non-software format related, it provokes too much anger on here. I feel that it is entirely possible that the frustration you feel concerning SACD, and other formats, could originate from some other place in your system. I'm open to discuss that if you like, just fire away...

Albert; I enjoyed your well written post (just above). It describes very well how many LP users/lovers must feel. But I must respectfully disagree with one of your conclusions, ie "built on a format that has reached perfection......". Perhaps this means that the format(LP)is as good as it will ever get? Or it could mean that the goal of recreating the live performance was finally achieved only to be lost by the digital takeover. I choose to (optimistically) believe that some future digital format, in the hands of dedicated artists and engineers, is the best chance, or maybe the only chance, for this goal to be realized. Sincerely. Craig.

.......I hasten to add-- I have never heard YOUR system. I bet it is SPECTACULAR. Craig.

Albert; Your post of 7/7 is the most powerful, eloquent, and oviously painful statement I've yet to see in this forum. My follow-up posts above are just "blather" (to use one of Carl's words), and add nothing. Please disregard them. My only excuse is that it was 1:30 A.M. when I impulsively posted them. Your statement stands on its own. Respectfully, Craig.

I use to have a well burned in (500 hours for each format)Sony SCD-777ES sacd player,and while the clean detail and macro/micro dynamics were outstanding,it did not have the overall satisfaction that I got from my tweaked out Cal Alpha 24/96 /Delta combo.There was a warmer sound and a greater 3 D soundstage,at least in my system.Two other critical audio buddies (one a jazz musician)were part of the mix that helped me conclude my preferance.I did try vinyl for awhile,had a modest VPI HW-19 Mk III with an AQ PT-6 arm and a Benz Micro Glider and a few 100 mint discs from the pre cd days(even bought a few audiophile discs).I even had a VPI record cleaner.I had trouble getting the right phono pre amp.A Linn Linto and a BP-25MC(preferred tubes) were not right and the upgrade for my Audible Illusions M3A would have taken about 3 months, and my budget and patience was bottoming out ,so I sold all of my vinyl gear.Right now I use a Magnum Dynalab tuner in addition to my digital gear,and I am quite satisfied with that.At least to me,in an ideal situation where one has an expansive appreciation for many types (jazz classical,pop ect.) of talented music,yet does have preferences,then the need for both formats(vinyl/cd) is essential and complimentary.Each format has many albums that the other does not.We do not have to think alike or even agree ,yet we can still respect the others opinions and preferrances in a non defensive and respectful manner.If one is into criticizing another format(analog/digital) or type of music,how is one truly able to appreciate what they have(system/music) with these strong self righteous issues.Live and let live and your music takes on a whole new level of satisfaction.Free your mind and finally be able to totally embrace the music.After all,that's what it should be all about,shouldn't it?

Garfish,this is in reponse to your question of what study I referred to comparing digital vs analog.You had made a statement that digital listeners were more serene than analog listenes. I have seen while browsing several studies that all came to the same conclussin.Indeed that people subjected to listening to digital became more easily figidty,bored,distracted and felt an uneasiness compared to analog listening.You can search the net for these if you want to as I can't recall where I found them.What came to mind initially was a study I had read in the Jan.2000 issue of Stereophile VOL.23 NO.1 The article starts on page 55 and is called "God is in the Nuances" It is a long article and I wish I had time to copy it all.Here is just a small part of the study...Lets start with the emotional states of the participants.The participants began with a base tension level of 3.26,with the dgital system this dropped to 2.35 and with the analog system to 1.75.Nervousness was raised from a base level of 1.8 to 2.2 by the digital system,but fell to 1.1 with the analog system.The need for relaxation fell from a base level of 2.6 to 1.9 with the analog system,but rose to 2.9 with the digital system.The ability to concentrate remained constant with the analog system at 4.3 but fell to 3.6 with the digital system.Relaxedness stayed constant with the digital system at 4.0,but rose to 4.6 with the analog system.This shows that the analog system worked toward a feeling of serenity in the participants,whereas the digital system heightened tension and stress.Equally interesting was the response to the question of whether the participants liked the music they were played.With the analog system,43 out of 53 participants said they liked the Larry Conklin piece,46 the baroque music,and 38 the Sally Barker piece.The music was heard as interesting,emotionally appealing,and engaging.Via the digital system the levels fell to 31,33,and 35 respectively.The same music was now more often experienced as boring.Food for thought........The article goes on and on all pointing to analog as the most preferred set up.Read the entire study,it was done very well.

Albert, I have in front of me a once played,good as when first opened, copy of Matchbox-20 on vinyl.It is their first one,the multi-million seller "Your Self Or Someone Like You" I had a friend who loved this album so I bought it for $9.00 brand new at a shop in Roch.N.Y. He bought the CD at the same time for $14.00 or $15.00 can't remember.WE did a A/B and well,the vinyl kills the CD version.Overall its not one of the better recordings out there but its stll pretty good.Anyway if this is something you would want for your collection and would get use out of it you can have it.Im not much into them anyway and as I said its been spun one time.I will send to you.I dont have your E-mail address anymore.If you still have mine send me your home address and its on its way.If someone told you this was not out on vinyl,still dont give up.The people in some stores have done searches for me and have told me "no vinyl"and they have been wrong many times.I wanted a vinyl copy of a Tool LP called Aenima and pretty much had given up.I looked for months for it and called all over.One eve.I was in E-Bay and there it was.There is TONS of 90's music on vinyl.If you are looking for something and cant find it E-mail me.I have a good nose for vinyl!! Mario,my dealer sends me on "assignments"for a long wanted copy of something he cant find.Check out CDNOW.com they have lots of new music on vinyl.$2-3 less than the CD!! If you feel funny accepting the LP from me I have been looking for a mint Pink Floyd "The Wall" I know you guys with thousands of LPs have several copies of the classics.Just a generic copy would be fine.No need for a MOFI.I have a copy in G- but want a better one.Either way,the Matchbox-20 is yours.Its just collecting dust here.Let me know.

David. Thanks to you from both myself, and my son. We listen together fairly often. He is only 14 years of age, so I often have trouble finding the music of his generation. I will look for Pink Floyd, I have only one copy of "The Wall," but I think I will be able to locate another. Hard to find LP's..... I would love to find "Mirrorball" by Sarah McLachlan; 10,000 Maniacs, "Our Time In Eden"; Loreena McKennitt "Book of Secrets"; KD Lang "Ingenue." I am also looking for two or three super clean copies of Nirvana's albums. "Nevermind", "In Utero" and "Unplugged". All of the copies posted on EBAY go completely crazy, and end up selling for what looks like the national debt. I will write you through Audiogon, you are of course welcome to my e-mail address.

Albert or David, if you find the any of Loreena Mckennit's work, or Sarah McLachlan's "Mirror Ball" on vinyl, get an extra copy for me. Thanks. CDNow has "Inutero" on vinyl, I think. I may get it. I saw on the news that CD NOw is supposed to be going out of business in the next two weeks or so, unless they merge with a larger company. They've tried to merge before, but it fell through. I was hoping they'd have some kind of going-out-of-business sale, but so far it's only like "30% off".

David; It was actually Rockvirgo above that said "CD listeners appear far more serene", but I did ask for the studies you mentioned on this subject. And thanks for noting the Stereophile article. I had read it, and found it interesting-- don't remember if it was statistically significant or not though. I'll take another look. BTW, what did you think of Albert's well written post on the state of LP/analog? As noted, I thought it was right on, but I take no comfort in the decline of vinyl. Thanks, Craig.

Carl,I have bitten all my finger nails till they are bloody waiting for a full report on your new TUBE amp.What gives? As far as buying new music on vinyl the best place I have found is e-bay.Sometimes still sealed.I will do search for you and Albert but the best thing to do is snatch up the new stuff right away.Creeds "My Own Prison" will never be out on vinyl unless there is an import or an audiopile label picks it up.I called Wind up records which is the bands label and the producer said he was a vinyl guy and understood but to release it on vinyl was not cost efective.I begged him make on copy for me!! Well,one time a while back I walked into my favorite music store and proudly on the new releases rack were 2 vinyl copies of Creed's new one "Human Clay"I should have bought them both but that wouldnt have been right.So you never know what you will find! Maybe I got to the producers "kind side"

I dont feel analog is dying.Of course it will never dominate again.From all I have read there is a renewed interest in analog.I feel some people are disappointed in the state of digital and are starting to doubt the future.I know we are a minority and are looked upon as old folks(Im just 45) My kids never saw a record until 3 years ago and refer to them as "big CD's" There are so many albums for sale its not funny.I buy mint LP's frequently for almost nothing.To me they sound so awesome compared to CD's.I will NEVER go back.I sold ALL my CD's 3 years ago and dont regret it at all.All my stereo money goes into analog now.My $20 NEC yard sale CDP is fine for the amount of time I use it.If a friend brings a CD over I dont have on vinyl or the kids want to listen to Britney Spears (she's HOT,especially since she got a boob job) Did I write that??? Anyway,No analog wont die in my life time. Beyond that,I dont care.

Albert,music is manufactured because listeners are manufactured.Besides,how much are you ready to spend on each album?$100.00? $200.00?Guess not.You are an important part of this system.Don't complain.I,myself have 60 albums,though heard thousands.My best wishes.

To 3141510, I'm not sure I understand what your posting means. I will try to address your comments, and apologize if I am wrong. Some rare LP titles that are important to me cost over $150.00. There are many others that were less than $10.00. Last week I purchased "Louis Armstrong Plays King Oliver," This is a new reissue from Classic Records. The price was only $20.00, and the sound is astounding! The reason I mention this specific LP, is the fact that it was recorded basically using only two Telefunken microphones in front of the performers in a "X" pattern. There are no overdubs, and the mixing is extremely minimal. This is an extreme example of what I meant when I described "created" music as opposed to "manufactured" music. Louis Armstrong had so much talent, and was so spontaneous, he could perform for a recording, or in front of a live audience and always made a amazing show of his ability. By contrast, some of today's artists rely so heavily on special techniques that they have difficulty in concert, even when equipped with an entire stage of assistants and electronics. On the subject of my being part of the "system," Although my music is primarily LP's, probably near 6,000 titles. I have also purchased over 2000 new CD's. I have never recorded music to tape to avoid paying for an artists work, nor ever taken songs from the radio, or MP3 files. The conditions that exist in the music industry are not due to a lack of support by me. If I cared more about music than I do now, I would have problems feeding myself and my family.

I'll just leave you alone.You got a small part of it.And forgive me, but Armstrong?He is not even a musician,let alone artist.I suggest Miles Davis instead.

David; The study you refer to by german psychology student J. Ackerman, and reported on by M. Sauer in Jan. and Feb. 2000, Stereophile issues has not reported statistical significance and so, at least this time,it is only opinion, speculation, conjecture, or anecdotal evidence that Ackerman's hypothesis (unstated) is true. No reputable scientific journal would publish a study without statistical significance, and the 95% confidence level (that the hypothesis is correct) is the desireable level to achieve, but the 90% level, while weaker, is publishable. But Stereophile is in the business of selling magazines, and this particular subject took up quite a few "sort of interesting" pages. If Ackerman's study were statistically significant, I would think that Stereophile would have followed up and reported it by now-- but I've seen nothing. As for the girl that heard Ackerman's music 150+ times, M. Sauer made much of this, but in fact it amounts to an uncontrolled study with only one "sample"-- meaningless (except to the girl). I once conducted a study that involved the collection of hundreds of samples over a year and a half only to find out (from statisticians) that my hypothesis only had a confidence level of 52%, ie meaningless; frustrating and disappointing. I hope this post hasn't excessively bored Audiogon readers, but Ackerman's study needs some perspective. Craig.

Craig, your observations may or may not be entirely accurate, but I wonder if you are predisposed to assume that Stereophile's article would have little or no validity in the first place?.......David, please, I'm still evaluating the tube amp. I like it, but it's hard to tell exactly what I like about it. Relax, I'll talk plenty about it later.

And I've heard Britney say she hasn't had surgery, but I'd really need to see her sans top to decide for sure. They can be quite perky and nice when they're short on years, as some of us might now...And gee, I hate her "music". That fad certainly will die out quickly, it can't be too soon for me. Problem is, it'll be replaced by something worse, like monkeys and kangaroos gettin their groove on...or something.

Hi Carl; My predispositions are not relevant here (but I think I have an open mind). The statistical significance of Ackerman's study is highly relavant (but unreported). Universaties will often informally publish (in-house) MS and PHD theses even without statistical significance-- after all, negative information can be valuable too, and in these cases, it is the effort and quality that is graded. Reputable scientific journals don't publish non-significant results because they can't afford to-- methods and results have to stand up to peer review. I would just like to see the FINAL result(s) of Ackerman's study. If they aren't significant, I'd guess we'll never see them though. Craig

In response to the posting from 3141510, Now I am really confused. I try to address your issues, and you make no sense at all. As far as Miles Davis, not only do I admire him, I purchased (probably) every recording he ever made. However, concerning your comments about Louis Armstrong, you state (I quote) "He is not even a musician, let alone artist." Since this differs so much from my belief, I visited AMG, and here is what is stated in the musical and historical facts in the relationships concerning Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong: I quote exactly: "Miles Davis had quite a career, one with so many innovations that his name is one of the few that can be spoken in the same sentence with Duke Ellington. ROOTS AND INFLUENCES: Dizzy Gillespie Roy Eldridge Bobby Hackett Harry James Freddy Webster Louis Armstrong Bix Beiderbecke Charlie Parker Clark Terry." Please note that Louis Armstrong is listed as an influential contributor to the music of Miles Davis. This certainly points to the fact that Louie Armstrong was indeed a great musician, and where he may be in a "generation gap" where you are concerned, he is indeed an important contributor. Louis and Miles are both a vital part of the history of Jazz, and that is not in any way just my opinion.

All right, you asked.When I say listeners are manufactured I mean that most "music lovers" are in fact nothing but consumers gobbling up everything in their path.I find it difficult to understand how anyone can like Beatles and Dead Can Dance equally.These people are gatherers and nothing more.As LPs are inconvinient compared to any digital format,the analog records will most certainly die out since no one (including you) is going to pay for LPs five times the price of digital.If Miles Davis was influenced by Armstrong,then Paco de Lucia is influenced by Russian folk balalaika music and John McLaughlin by Bill Clinton.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but I will accept the facts at an established music site over a person who is amused by silly comparisons. My effort was sincere, it appears you are following another agenda.

Albert, I wonder if this guy is even worth the effort? He sure seems like an angry personality, feeling the need to bash important musicians and the like. Must be sour grapes on his part. One other observation, he does love number sequences, heh heh.

Listen to the new Accuphase 77V 24/192 playing Red Book CDs, particularly remastered 20-bit, XRCD, etc. Then tell me how great the SACD-1 sounds.

SACD has the POTENTIAL to rival or surpass analog for sound quality but will it. The mastering may still be the weak link. Base on many CDs that came from 96/24 masters, they sounded good unless you compare them to the originals. The so called remasterd CDs generally have 2 qualities to make them sound "better": 1 Less dynamics, (eventually we'll have monotone signals called music) and 2 less trebble. Take the RVG series from Blue Note. They had a small fraction of the dynamics and very little if any real highs of the previous versions of the CDs, yet at first people sucked them up like crazy. Eventually everyone dumped them. (Tower has been selling them for $7.99 each)The best CDs are those mastered using XRCD and HDCD. I prefer HDCD because they're much less expensive and contrary to popular belief, you don't need an HDCD player to get the major part of the benefit. (I have HDCD gear Spectral). That's another issue, Really inexpensive CD playback is just greatly lacking in being able to reproduce what's on the CD. Any recording studio software will allow you to analyze the output of a digital transport. If you think jitter is the only problem or the biggest problem, just analyze the output of a digital sine wave over 10kHz, and it gets worse as the frequency goes up. At home I'm 80% vinyl. (It was 95% until I got the Spectral). In the car and at work, I'm 100% digital. (It's hard to find a 57 Dodge with a record player, besides they only played 45s)

3141510; Are you a music lover? If not, what are you doing on Audiogon's site?

Just saw the posting about Louis Armstrong. You must be an idiot to make such a statement. I'm not even a fan of Armstrong's music, but I consider him one of the two great improvosational geniuses in jazz. (Along with Bird) His solos are really incredible. His tone and phrasing are out of this world. If I was a fan of Trad, I'd every have Louis recording instead of just a couple.

3141510- I have seen some of your comments in other areas of audiogon.You appear to be a very angry person and often make confusing and irrational comments.Are you a music lover? What artists do you like the most? What is your format preference? Do you like tubes or solid state? I am interested to know more about your genuin likes and dislike concerning music reproduction. Thanks!!