Have I lost my mind? I swear that I am hearing differences in the direction I hook up my interconnect cables between my preamp and power amp. These are custom built solid core silver cables with Eichmann bullet plugs. There is no shield so this is not a case where one end of the cable’s shield is grounded and the other isn’t.
There are four ways ways to hook them up: Right: Forward. Left: Forward. Right: Backward. Left: Backward Right: Forward. Left: Backward Right: Backward. Left: Forward.
There is no difference in construction between forward and backward, but here are my observations:
When they are hooked up forward/backward there appears to be more airy-ness and what appears to be a slight phase difference. When hooked up forward/forward or backward/backward, the image seems more precise like they are more in phase. The difference between forward/forward and backward/backward is that one seems to push the soundstage back a little bit while the other brings it towards you more.
What could possibly cause this? Does it have something to do with the way the wire is constructed and how the grains are made while drawn through a die? Am I imagining this? Have I completely lost my mind?
“DIRECTIONALITYAll drawn metal strands or conductors have a non-symmetrical, and therefore directional, grain structure. AudioQuest controls the resulting RF impedance variation so that noise is drained away from where it will cause distortion. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. When applicable, arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For most models of AQ cable, the arrows not only indicate the direction that optimizes metal-directionality as part of Noise-Dissipation, but also indicates non-symmetrical attachment of shield and GND in order to optimize full-system performance.”
Of course you can come up with ridiculous examples that are exceptions to the rule, like Kimber braided stranded cables. If the strands were arranged arbitrarily then some strands would be in the correct direction while some wouldn’t. That would be rather unsatisfactory in terms of outcome sonically. If the strands were all in the same direction Kimber cables would be directional. In the case of Audioquest stranded cables and power cords all the strands are controlled for directionality, “honoring the inherent directionality of the wire.” One needs to be conscious of wire directionality before undertaking the assembly of cables. The test of a good cable is that it IS directional.
Yes that's correct… I was referring to the original post that says
There is no shield so this is not a case where one end of the cable’s shield is grounded and the other isn’t.
and my comment is that in most home environments running low level signals through unshielded wire is likely to have a far more detrimental effect than the direction of the wire.
Personally I don't believe that the direction of the cable has any impact on the quality of the sound reproduced at the loudspeaker. However everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I won't try to change yours.
In my experience the capacitance of the cable (inherent in coax design) can effect the high frequency response due to the voltage divider it creates with the input impedance of the amplifier. As long as the capacitance is small enough then this will be above the range of human hearing. If you know the input impedance of your amplifier and the capacitance of the cable you can calculate what this will be and in most cases it won't be a problem.
Personally I prefer to use balanced interconnects as the chassis ground is separate from the signal ground (which doesn't get passed at all) and common mode interference is cancelled out when the cold signal is subtracted from the hot.
Just two comments. Directionality in wire is independent of shielding. Directionality is audible and repeatable and transferable for any unshielded interconnect, speaker cable, power cord. If the cable or cord is shielded that overlays another direction related constraint which may or may not conform to the directionality of the wire. There is a 50% chance it won’t unless that particular cable has been controlled for directionality, I.e., respect has been given the inherent directionality of the wire. It just takes a little bit of planning.
Going back to the OP's original post, I think there might be a rational argument for the difference in perceived sound. If the cables aren't shielded then you're running a couple of antennas that will be highly sensitive to external interference so small changes in position will result in differences in quality (like when you unplug them and turn them around). If you flip a coin three times and it comes up heads then you might think that the coin has a bias toward landing tails side down. The impact of the interconnect on sound reproduction can be down to the capacitance, inductance, shielding and quality of contact at each end. There is a possibility that the interconnects find a better contact one way round rather than the other so that might be something else to consider. From all of this discussion I think the impact of running unshielded interconnects has monumentally more impact than easing the flow of electrons through a conductor. I prefer to use balanced interconnects of a modest cost that cancel out most of that interference at the receiving end... and that's what recording and mastering studios prefer to do as well.
Uh, jea48, you haven’t been paying close attention. The HiFi Tuning website experience and common sense tells us that directionality of wire applies to AC circuits as well as DC circuits. In fact, I cannot off the top of my head think of a case where a wire or fuse is not (rpt not) in an AC circuit. You must Shirley be putting me on. We know that the magnetic fields and the electric fields associated with the electromagnetic waves traveling down the wire are orthogonal to the direction of the electromagnetic wave. This is nothing new or anything to be alarmed or concerned about. Its just Poynting and Heaviside stuff. It’s a red herring. In an AC circuit the signal obviously travels back and forth in the wire. Not sure what your argument is or why you’re arguing.
I love this site as much for the discussions as the information but out of this whole group there isn't one electrical engineer or physicist that can settle this once and for all?
OK, I didn’t want to do it but you forced my hand. Here’s the data sheets from HiFi Tuning website showing small but consistent resistance differences for various fuses, including stock fuses and their own fuses and other high end fuses. This is is really for the benefit of the newbies as this data has been discussed ad nauseam over the years. As The Moody Blues said, you decide which is right and which is an illusion.
So the simple issue is that current flowing in one direction on a simple pure conductor meets a different resistance if that same amount of current flows in the opposite direction (over the same conductor). And the hypothesis continues that it is imparted by process of the conductor being drawn from its molten slog and formed into a solid.
While we await the link to a peer reviewed article or even a thesis from an accredited institution, the poster who stated that electrons flow very slowly is 100% correct. However, the external links to the kook who tries to unexplain everything are not helpful. And here there are also some sideways discussions that delve into polarized vs. non-polarized circuits, or where on a conductor electrons carry the most charge, which is not the issue at hand. The other external links to authorities are usually someone in the audio industry hawking some wares (or someone hawking their own) or the recycling of the Pink Floyd anecdote. While they are probably #15 on my all time, I'd be more interested in what Tom Scholz has said. In the studio, there's too much goofballery and zero "science" to consider what they "discovered" as proof of any concept.
While this sonic "phenomenon" somehow cannot be measured using instruments, it yet exists. One post stated specifically to measure the resistance of a wire in one direction and then measure it in another. While that is very much of an April Fool's joke, the serious consideration is that A/C would not exist if the amplitude of the voltage along a wire was not symmetric. A/C works as an energy source because of this symmetry. Discussions that cover outputs of a pre-amp into an amp or amp into speakers as being "scientific" mechanisms to measure this phenomena are speculative and further support of bias confirmation more than anything else. If it sounds "good", does not make it science.
Because the electron distribution at the surface of the conductor is greater than at the conductor’s core...and since the audio signal utilizes electrons as its travel medium, skin effect comes into play.
Oh, I dunno, I read the first page of comments on the PS Audio thread on Iconoclast cables and am a little non-plussed. For any cable brand throughout history you can always find somebody somewhere who goes ape. 🦍 It’s the same with almost all audio component or device. I did not run across any discussion of directionality on the first page of comments. Was there any later in the discussion?
Pop quiz - if there are no audio frequencies running through cables why is “skin effect” an issue? Free tweak for the first correct answer.
That sounds like a winning plan. Is there a way to tell the direction of a wire without listening to it? E.g. can you identify the direction of the copper grains? The reason I ask is because it would be nice to know whether or not the signal and return wires are in unison or opposite without taking the wires apart and retwisting.
In this specific example, these cables were made by hand by myself but there was no controlling for directionality “at the factory,” because at the time of construction I didn’t know directionality existed. I learn more everyday. There are 3 conductors - 1 signal and 2 return. So with 6 wires total between 2 channels it’s possible there is a hodge podge of forwards and backwards. Even if that is the case, there should still be better or worse ways to hook them up. I’m assuming the signal cable plays a larger role so hopefully not all is lost if the neutrals are in the wrong direction.
If you want to make your head explode read about Iconoclast Cables.There is a long thread on AudioCircle and a couple of reviews on Audio Bacon.The three styles of Iconoclast cables are made exactly the same and measure exactly the same.The only difference is the type of copper used in each.They all sound different.The man that designs them freely admits he doesn't know why.It's fascinating reading with many charts and calculations for any science nerds that are interested :-)
What I’m trying to suggest is how do you know which end of the cables is which if the wires inside the cables were not “controlled for directionality” at the factory. If one wire is the reverse of the other “directionality wise” then it would make sense that your best results are when one cable is the reverse of the other. Of course, having all cables (wires) including speaker cables in the “correct direction” would make it easier to discern differences in direction. You can’t judge a book by looking 👀 at the cover. Plus there’s a direction issue with the shield, if the interconnects are shielded.
By listening, what I can hear is that when one is “backwards” and the other “forwards”, there seems to be a phase issue where the imaging is less precise. If both are backwards OR both are forwards, the phase issue goes away. I cannot easily distinguish between forwards and backwards for the pair, just that I can figure out how to get the cables in unison if that makes sense. If I hear the phase issue and I swap the direction on one cable it goes away. After that is solved, I can reverse both cables simulataneously so they stay in unison but I have difficulty determining the best direction. I think I have a preference but it’s subtle enough that I can’t be sure I’m not fooling myself. Perhaps more listening will allow me to figure it out. Any suggestions?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
