Interconnect Directionality

:-)

millercarbon

Totally weird that people who make cables that work at 100GHz don't know this, but people who make 20KHz audio cables do .... strange ... very strange, almost like it is not true.

Cables are direction for shielding. Cables are directional where intentional elements have been added at one end. The rare, and very rare very very high frequency RF cable (10's of GHz) is direction because the control the impedance along the length for end to end impedance matching.

Since you know this stuff so intimately, I am sure YOU can put some hard numbers around the capacitance, inductance, bulk-impedance, etc. of these audio cables and relate that to amplifier, pre-amp, and speaker complex impedance and what the typical impacts the values of these cables will have on signal transmission. I mean that should be brutally simple for you right? You shouldn't even need Google ..... now after you do that, please relate that to the average impedance and response consistency unit to unit (variance) between capacitors, resistors, speakers etc. in the signal change. I can wait and I am sure others would like to hear your brilliance.


geoffkait17,586 posts10-14-2019 10:56amThings are worse than that ( connectors). A lot worse. In a nut shell all wire is directional. I am not the one who did it so don’t blame me. I did not invent reality. That’s why all cables and power cords and fuses are directional. That’s also why digital cables are directional. That’s why foreword thinking companies like Audioquest and Goertz and Anti Cables control directionality of cables from the get go. You have to honor the inherent natural directionality of wire. 🔜 HDMI Cables, Ethernet cables are also directionality. There is a separate issue with shielding but ideally the shielding direction should conform to the wire directionality. Same with connectors, if they are in fact directional, which they may be. Who knows? So, to summarize, all wire is directional and all wire in everything should be controlled for directionality, speaker internal wire, transformers, capacitors, internal component wiring. You name it.

Hey, question for the group, are clearthink, and geoffkait the same person?  The reason I ask it that clearthink seems to think he needs to speak for geoffkait. Me believing geoffkait is an adult, believes that perhaps he can speak for himself.

NO clearthink, I don't need to prove anything .... though I can easily show that frequency effects are <0.1db on interconnects (MM phono cables excepted), and impacts on phase are so close to be 0 as to be 0.

HOWEVER, anyone with any idea about MFG of audio products knows that resistors are likely to be at 1% tolerance (and worse in many tube amps), the best capacitors 2-3% and many 5-20% tolerance, and changes in room temp and self-heating based on the music volume can have significantly larger effects.  Let's add in changes in parameters due to the self heating of voice coils will have a larger impact than cable direction, and that is not even taking into account the large variation from unit to unit in speaker MFG.

You know what else has a dramatically larger impact on sound transmission than the direction of a cable (shielding aside). Room humidity, especially if you have a larger listening room. Changes in room humidity could easily swamp out any differences you will see changing from one cable to another or from one interconnect to another or the direction.

However, to quote Hitchen's, "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence". A non-controlled listening test is not "evidence", it is anecdote. Learn the difference please. There are lots of anecdotes here, but there are no evidence. Astrologers use anecdotes ...  (so do people who believe the earth is flat).

Not sure if your post is trolling, a serious question, or lack of knowledge. The questions really have little bearing on the question at hand.

In AC, the net effective drift velocity is 0, so in a balanced AC line, without DC offset, electrons never move far from where they started, in bulk at least. That does not mean stochastically that some electrons couldn't ... except they don't jump transformers of course.

They do move back and force within fuses though :-) ... both directions in any given fuse.

"Charge" is simply an excess of charge carriers, either positive or negative, though really you don't collect positive charge carriers so much as deplete negative charge carriers. That does not play in a transformer so I am not sure what actual question you are trying to ask here ....  I am giving YOU the benefit of the doubt you have some idea of how a transformer operates?



jea483,136 posts10-21-2019 4:58pm@ roberttcan 

Would you please explain how the electrons in the transmission lines ever leave a generating power plant. Do the same electrons ever reach our homes?


Do the electrons in the primary winding side of an isolation type power transformer pass from the primary winding to the secondary winding? How about the charge?

jea48,

Unfortunately, the real answer to what carries the signal is pretty complex, but sometimes an analogy is best.

What propagates the signal is an electromagnetic wave. The electromagnetic wave is induced by a voltage potential. The energy is technically "carried" in the electromagnetic wave. It is not even carried in the wire, but in the field around the electrons (and wire), but that does not mean that at audio frequencies esoteric dielectrics for wire make any practical difference. That wave induces electron flow in a given direction.  Current, by definition is the flow of electrons, but what really happens is more complex.

The surface electrons provide the medium for the propagation of the EM wave, though just like air doesn't "move" for sound transmission, the electrons do not either. The electric field induced in the wire is what moves electrons along. 

In AC ... i.e. power, audio signals, etc. the applied potential is changes in amplitude and is reversed, which cases the direction of the e-field in the wire to change direction and the direction of the electrons to move.

What perhaps you are missing is how is that signal "converted". Well in a speaker, those moving electrons induce a magnetic field, and when that magnetic field is a speaker coil, when they are moving one way they push the speaker out, and when moving the other way, pull the speaker in.

... and in a transformer, the moving electrons induce a magnetic field .... and that magnetic field when it intersects with the wires in the secondary causes the electrons to move which induces a voltage potential resulting in an EM wave propagation in the wire.

Translation ..... I don't understand half of what you said, probably less. Therefore I will post a link to a Wikipedia article that will show even more clearly I don't understand the topic or what you said ... well done there jea48, WELL DONE!

From the link you don't understand, "No energy flows outside the cable, either, since there the magnetic fields of inner and outer conductors cancel to zero." ... that means two fields one for each wire, but does not say what direction each one points.... hint, depends on what the polarity is between outer and inner.


jea483,142 posts10-21-2019 9:14pm

BLA, BLA, BLA

"Use a coax cable for an example. Center conductor is solid wire. Shield is the signal ground conductor and is connected at both ends." 

Simple example.... Nobody said anything about the other crap you posted. Who cares? This is an audio forum.

I am sure will pick this Link apart. Have at dude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynting_vector#Coaxial_cable

This below is almost too stupid to answer. How long does it take from the time you open the tap to the time the water comes out? ... If in your house, pretty much instant because the pipes are already full.

"If it was the electrons that carried the signal how long would it take from the time a needle was dropped in the groove of a record to the time you would hear the first note from the speakers?"

Oh yes, LET'S USE A COAX AS AN EXAMPLE.

Do you even know what this example means?  There are a few effects going on in a coax. First you have transmission line effects ... that is because there IS a connection between the two wires in a coax. That connection is a capacitor, and inherent in the construction of the coax is the piece-wise inductance of the wire, i.e. every section of wire has an effective inductance. Why does that matter? ... well similar to how a pressure wave needs to travel through those pipe for water to come out (it only seems instantaneous), a voltage potential propagates along a coax, before conduction starts (well really that happens with all pairs of wires). 

A lot of high frequency coax cables do not use solid wires in the center, but I guess you are showing your lack of experience there.

You do realize that "energy" does not only flow into the center conductor right, it flows into the outer ground as well? Do you realize how the "shielding" even works? .. and I use quotations as the shielding is almost a misnomer, though the outcome is not. It does not so much "shield" the inner conductor, as it prevents a potential from being induced between the outer shield and the interior wire ... which works no matter whether the shield is ground, or the shield is signal, as you are interested in the differential between the two. The outer is usually ground as it is often connected to case ground. Of course, without twisting, it is susceptible to magnetic interference. 

"Use a coax cable for an example. Center conductor is solid wire. Shield is the signal ground conductor and is connected at both ends."

When you find a copper wire, or heck anything that is not a perfect insulator, that is devoid of free electrons, I will be sure to answer the absolutely asinine question posited below: ....


"You want to use water in place of an electrical signal.

Well beings you want to use water in a pipe.

From the time you open the HOT WATER TAP to the time you get HOT WATER from the TAP how long does it take."

If you are going to be pedantic so will I:

1) The energy in the EM wave causes the electrons to move, the moving electrons impact with tungsten atoms and release phonons, which is what causes the wire to heat up and that causes the emission of photons.

2) NO, the signal, in this case we were talking AC power, but applies to any AC signal, does not move down the wire in one direction. Depending on whether the Live is higher potential than Neutral, or Neutral is higher potential than Live, determine which way the "energy" enters the equipment or is transferred. It defines on an instantaneous basis the electron drift direction. That means that energy is transferred whether electrons are "entering" the fuse or exiting the fuse .... and barring any transmission line effects, which at audio frequencies and fuse sizes will be zero, the bulk model for a fuse, will be the same no matter which way current flows.




"So in a nutshell the signal energy travels down the wire in one direction >>>> from the source to the load in the form of an electromagnetic wave. It’s the energy that causes the light bulb to light. 

It’s the energy that causes the fuse internal wire to melt if the fuse is overloaded. The energy moves in one direction from the source to the load. It does not travel back in forth in the fuse. Agree?"

NO, this is just a new account. I left his group a few years ago ... to start a company, making electronics .... you know things you don't understand.

thecarpathian, clearthink has been on a targeted harassment campaign against me since I rejoined, literally yesterday (as obvious with him posting here), and jae48 tried to troll me, and failed miserably. IF people want to have conversations as adults, and not try to come across as experts when they clearly are not, then you will find things will be quite civil. 

clearthink914 posts10-22-2019 1:27amroberttcan" I don't understand half of what you said, probably less."

If you are patient and polite you will learn more from this group do not expect to know everything right away you are still new here!

Uhmmmm your friend jea48 was, but if you aren't going to invest the time to read all the comments, what is the point of responding?   We are talking about the directionality of fuses and your erroneous claim that the fuse only impacts the current in one direction (take your pick  either positive or negative phase of the wave), not both directions .... which is simply not true.

geoffkait17,612 posts10-22-2019 12:29pmUh, we aren’t discussing shielded cables. Hel-loo! I’m afraid someone doesn’t yet know what directionality even means. I won’t mention any names. I suspect this is probably just a case of can’t see the forest for the trees.

Enjoy your CJ you two :-)

Nope, I have not and never will delete a post, unless I post something wrong, and then I will edit is to say, "My post was in error,  hence I deleted the content"


jea483,149 posts10-22-2019 1:37pm

roberttcan70 posts   

10-22-2019 12:24pm   

Enjoy your CJ you two :-) 

@ roberttcan


I notice you deleted your first thread. Embarrassed because you didn’t get one response? You’re off to good start. Welcome back to the Gon. 70 arrogant responses in 2 days. That has to be a record. 

Just curious, if I may ask, what was your old username?

Best regards, 

You have a nice day. :-)

George, george, george, you are going to be pedantic, you should improve your reading comprehension and not quickly jump to your keyboard (after wikipediaing) ....

Let’s start with your grossly ignorant last statement about what changes the "sound" in the wire. Since we are talking sound, we are talking analog, and since we are talking sound, we are talking information, so let’s start with information theory, so let’s go back to Shannon’s limit which is a way to characterize the information in a signal (or to be carried in a cable). So let’s see how much information is carried in an analog audio signal ... say 140db, 100Khz ... I am being real kind here. That is about 4.6mbits/second of information. Don’t try to throw "timing" into this as that is inherent in the SNR. That is it ... the total audio signal for 140db, 100Khz is 4.6 mbits/second. Any directional em/quantum effects will not remotely come into play at this data rate. They barely come into effect at 10 gbits/second.

That YOU try to bring up any EM wave/field or quantum is truly laughable. Absolutely laughable. You know who does things like that, bring up things meaningless to the problem? ... PEOPLE WHO DON’T UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM or at least the magnitude of the problem. To them, everything is a nail, and their only tool is a hammer. YOU don’t understand it, so you are trying to apply anything you do know (sort of) to the problem.

2) YOU have really horrible reading comprehension. What you have tried to imply I said below is not remotely what I wrote. THAT tells me that you are at best wikismart, though I know what what you have wrote you think you are much more than that.

Holy crap, MY STATEMENT STARTS WITH "What propagates the signal is an electromagnetic wave." ... and you tell me I am wrong ... then say the exact same thing "The signal is the electromagnetic wave". Are you so blinded by the NEED to be right that you can’t even comprehend the words you are reading?

I am sorry you did not understand the subtlety of the EM wave is carried in a field around the electrons ... you know those electronics in the conductor ... I will blame it on your wiki level of knowledge. Instead of wasting my and others time with ridiculous notions that such effects as you describe would have any and I mean any detectable impact on audio signals ... which have very little information.


geoffkait17,689 posts10-23-2019 8:57pmroberttcan
jea48,



>>>>Sorry, that’s actually incorrect. The electric and magnetic fields generated by the current are obviously outside the conductor, and are orthogonal to each other, but they are not the electromagnetic wave, which travels inside the wire. The magnetic field obeys the right hand rule, of course. That’s what causes the change in sound according to direction of the wire, which is physically slightly asymmetrical. The signal is the electromagnetic wave, not the induced electric and magnetic fields. Better luck next time.

jea48, do both you and GK both go to the pedantic school of engineering ignorance?  CONTEXT. Quote EXACTLY what I wrote:

3) Current IS the movement of electrons literally by definition. Current is measured in Coulombs / second AND SINCE POSITIVE CHARGE CARRIERS DO NOT MOVE, THAT MEANS ELECTRON MOVEMENT.

It is pretty obvious, if you are skilled in the art, from the above I know that a) Coulomb, is a measure of charge. b) That coulombs/second is a movement of charge carriers, and c) that charge carriers can be either positive or negative (electrons). I ALSO know that in a wire there are not mobile positive charge carriers, and HENCE, in the context of the post, which was about whether current in the wire was the flow of electrons (and not photons), that by definition, in that context, CURRENT IS THE MOVEMENT OF ELECTRONS.

Now, if you wanted to say, "Hey, I get what you mean in the context of what you posted, and it is clear you understand current is the flow of positive and negative charge carriers, but others may not understand the context, so probably should not say "by definition .... "  then perhaps you would have added something to the conversation. 

THE ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS .... you know, the ones that make 100GHz cables, that ones that put gigabits through twisted pairs, the ones that developed the HDMI standard, the people who make measurements systems, all the ones where real bits, real SNR, real waveform shape = money, the ones whose customers have sophisticated test and measurement equipment, etc. etc. would never ever claim, except where a directional shield is concerned, or there is an intentional passive element built a cable, that, within the framework of audio, that directionality of an interconnect has any detectable difference in the sound. 

The AudioQuest article is meant to SELL cables to people that cannot read what they have written and say "BS - this does not apply at audio frequencies, and this does not apply well, almost ever". You can't say in one sentence, oh, our cables are amazing, due to their fantastic shielding, and then claim a paragraph later ... well ya know, there is directional impedance (is there? ... how much), and ya know, that RF interference will cause things to ring yada yada ... well which is it? Do they shield from noise, or do they cause some strange effect that no one outside the audio "marketing industry" has ever experienced? .... OH, and lets not forget, all signals in audio are AC, AND at analog audio frequencies transmission line effects don't exist and any that would would be swamped by source impedance, load impedance, and cable mismatch ... of which we can guarantee there are.  If it is USB, Ethernet, etc., unless it causes data loss, and it won't and it is easily tested with a BERT, it is meaningless. What is the typical USB / wired ethernet data loss in the home? ... effectively 0 for audio, i.e. you may lose bits every once in a while, not at any rate that would impact audio quality.  Want to throw timing at me for a electrical SPDIF or similar? .... easily, easily proven, lots of excellent test equipment out there that can measure jitter at the receiver, equipment that actual technical professionals, not marketing professionals use. Easy for any of these company to measure a jitter improvement claim, you know like was done to show the improvements in electrical over optical connections. Of course lets not forget that any competent DAC today buffers and reclocks so that jitter on the input has no correlation to jitter on the DAC.

---

clearthink,

I did NOT mean the moderators .. 

geoff,

I saw in one of your other posts that you follow the LIGO. Now you have to admit, that is a pretty impressive feat of measurement, right?

So what you are telling me, is that we can measure gravity waves, which I think you said requires sub-atomic accuracy, BUT we cannot measure the electrical signals in cables to a level of precision beyond human hearing such that this topic could be easily put to bed?

Now keep in mind, we are not talking about the complex acoustic and psychoacoustic effects that happen with respect to how we perceive sound, we are simply talking about an electrical signal going from one end of a cable to another. That it ends up as sound is moot, other than the limits of hearing, of which I am willing to generously give you as 100KHz, and 140db, even though there is no tested evidence to suggest that level of information content is required to test the limits of hearing.

We know that even fairly high levels of THD are hard to detect, even when weighted to harmonics we do not like.

I am not a skeptic geoff, I am a professional in the industry (though right now more into other things outside audio). You just assume I have never done these tests. I have, and more. I spent a few years doing just this sort of work for a range of clients. Now we are not talking amplifiers here. I am not under any illusion that all the typical measurements done fully characterize an amplifier. It is one of the reasons why I designed a specific piece of test equipment for a customer. We are talking cables, and even more than that, the directionality of analog cables, independent of shields as for the most part, electronics negates any digital transmission issues (note I did not say EMI noise coupling).

IF the direction of a cable, independent of a shield is as plain as the nose on my face, then surely it is dead easy to replicate this, blind tested? I don’t think that is an unreasonable hurdle to acceptance of your claim?





geoffkait17,693 posts10-24-2019 8:28amroberttcan
THE ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS .... you know, the ones that make 100GHz cables, that ones that put gigabits through twisted pairs, the ones that developed the HDMI standard, the people who make measurements systems, all the ones where real bits, real SNR, real waveform shape = money, the ones whose customers have sophisticated test and measurement equipment, etc. etc. would never ever claim, except where a directional shield is concerned, or there is an intentional passive element built a cable, that, within the framework of audio, that directionality of an interconnect has any detectable difference in the sound.

>>>>That’s what makes the whole directionality thing so interesting - that it IS audible. It’s as plain as the nose on your face. All wire is directional. Simple tests can be performed by any REAL skeptic, someone who was interested in getting to the bottom of things rather than a pseudo skeptic who prefers debating endlessly. 🔛 All you need is an open mind, and a little curiosity, you know, parts of the scientific method sometimes conveniently forgotten. Follow the arrows. 🔚

Great,

As you know "some person" who is an expert, why not get them to sign up to this forum, under their own name (so we can verify the claim you are making and his background), AND then, since they appear to be an expert in the field, they should be able to easily formulate and put numbers around, at least ball-park figures for how transmission line effects and other effects related to conduction would impact the audio signal.

I would be happy if they just did the latter and someone else posted it ... formulate and post some order of magnitude numbers, about the potential impact to the audio signal. It sounds like that would be very easy for them?

You make some pretty substantial claims for your cables here: http://www.teoaudio.com/technical/ so I would assume you can quantify them w.r.t. audio? I do notice a claim of GHz bandwidth, but lots of cables have GHz bandwidths and more (obviously at a given source/load impedance).

Interesting use of the term ionic "plasma", it certainly does not fit the normal definition of plasma. If you had said Fermi gas, I think that would be more supportable by standard definitions. This article / marketing seems to be based around Landau-Fermi liquid theories for conduction so at least a link to Fermi gas would apply.





teo_audio1,153 posts10-24-2019 10:51am

THE ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS .... you know, the ones that make 100GHz cables, that ones that put gigabits through twisted pairs, the ones that developed the HDMI standard, the people who make measurements systems, all the ones where real bits, real SNR, real waveform shape = money, the ones whose customers have sophisticated test and measurement equipment, etc. etc. would never ever claim, except where a directional shield is concerned, or there is an intentional passive element built a cable, that, within the framework of audio, that directionality of an interconnect has any detectable difference in the sound.

" as to that, I know a person who took their physics degree in transmission lines and the like. Basically their masters in the physics of conduction.

they ended up, in part of their resume, running a coast to coast telecommunications system as the head engineer.

And when it comes to audio and the signals involved and what is done in audio, this person quickly came to understand that people connected to and invested in things like the above quote...really don’t know the difference between their backside and a hole in the ground."

Care to start a thread? I don't mean that facetiously. As I said, I am willing to fund, it, but not all of it. I think we would need local assistance for good quality equipment. I can think of a few in the industry who would help with things like ensuring the acoustic treatment is done well, speaker placement near optimum. I would not want to enter any of my potential bias into it.

We could start a GoFundMe. It either dies on the vine, or it goes through. 

Count me in!
cleeds2,494 posts10-24-2019 1:40pmroberttcan

I am willing to test on any system you wish to configure ...

Let's see if the group can agree about what that system might look like. Then you could try to assemble something comparable at one of the major audio shows, and invite Audiogon readers and others in to participate.

I guess you can't be an automotive engineer unless you know how to account for relativistic effects in suspension design.

jea48,

It is AC .. it is akin to connecting a battery one direction, then the other direction.

Of course energy transfers from source to load, and as that happens electrons "flow", slowly, albeit they do. In AC, the net movement is 0, they move one way, stop, then they move the other way. They don't vibrate in place, so much as don't move very far, on average. 

But what is missing in your argument below is it is not a "wire" from the source to the load, it is a circuit of which the wire, both conductors, are part of. Sure there are effects as we are limited by the speed of light so the wave has to propagate along the length of the loop, but we are talking 300,000,000 metres/second and audio frequencies.

Because we are transferring energy in each polarity of the AC signal, and it is a loop, and both conductors are an integral part of that loop, presenting the same number of free carriers in either direction (practically), and equivalent geometry (again, practically at audio frequencies), direction, taking into account classical or quantum model of conduction, and knowing that audio interconnects are not even impedance matched to source and load, then this line of argumentation for the directionality of audio interconnects is not valid.

Now, if we were talking GHz, or hundreds of MHz, or MHz and really long cables, and reasonable ratios of impedance, then you could make an argument, and keep in mind MHz digital has frequency components into the 10's/100's of MHz, hence why transmission line effects practically come into play at relatively low frequencies. 

jea483,154 posts10-24-2019 10:26am@ roberttcan 

I see you deleted your post, responding to my previous post.

I posted your post from the other thread, for the intended use of an AC mains Line fuse used in a piece of equipment, to show your credibility. The fact you will not support a claim you make in a post other than "I am an EE and you are not" does not help in supporting your credibility.

I spent some time yesterday trying to find any credible evidence that the EM wave flows back and as it moves from the source to the load at near the speed of light, (in a vacuum). I found nothing. And I mean nothing at all that supported your claim. Not even the slightest mention.

In an AC circuit the magnetic fields around the conductor does vibrate (pretty much in place) building and collapsing 120 times per second (60 Hz) but it does not cause the EM wave to go back and forth as it travels near the speed of light from the source to the load. (With a load connected)

jea48,

Extraordinary claim ... "changing cable direction is as clear as the nose on your face". I am not making the claim, but if the difference is that obvious, it should be easily shown.

I used to do a lot of this type of work, comparative audio studies, under contract. Me, not "some guy I know". Me. If I owned the data, and not our customers, I would gladly publish it. Most of it was around speakers, some amplifiers, some "gadgets"... 

I have seen many many challenges to suppliers of cables and similar products to prove their claims in blind tests at an audio show. People are even willing to lose money on these challenges. Suppliers never take them up on it.

A room at Axpona, RMAF, etc. is about $4000-5000, and we would need to equip it with suitable equipment. I don't know about you, but I would gladly put in $1,000 to do this if it was done well. However, don't be surprised when the show organizers don't allow you to have a room, so you would likely need to do it offsite.

I have only see one person request a "legal" document, a certain cable vendor who blustered about his complete willingness to do such a test, he would draw up the legal documents and everything .... and then crickets.

- I am willing to test on any system you wish to configure. Based on this assumption every person who makes a claim has errors in their system
- I am willing to test on any system you wish to configure, hence if it is not revealing enough, that falls on you. 

However, since you are making the claim (as have others), then their systems would make the most sense to test on, and/or a manufacturers system who is also making the claim.

- The subject is not capable of hearing the difference: .. since it is the subjects ability to hear the difference claimed that is being rejected, I would say that is often a moot point. In the context of general testing, you normally do larger sample sizes and most who would participate in these define themselves as audiophiles.

- Cabling and or electronics are either brand new or not broken in or not earned up properly.  See point one. You (or the vendor) has complete flexibility in the system used.

- Test s/w is out of polarity or not good enough to reveal the differences. This speaks back to my point about the person making the claim to hearing differences being the ones who is being challenged. They have already made that claim on a range of S/W, so do the test with the same S/W.

- Weather issues mask the audible differences. If weather issues mask the audible differences, then how can you be sure you even heard a difference due to the component change in the first place and not due to a weather change. However, since this is a somewhat quick A/B test, both scenarios experience the same weather. We could also assume indoor and somewhat climate controlled.




geoffkait17,697 posts10-24-2019 12:15pm"The trouble I have with blind tests or any tests really is their inherent fallibility. So many things can go wrong. If the results are negative it could very well be for any of the following reasons, which is not intended to be a complete list.

The system has one or more errors in it. 
The system is not revealing enough.
The subject is not capable of hearing the difference.
The test software is out of polarity or just plain not good enough to reveal differences.
Cabling and or electronics are either brand new or not broken in or not earned up properly.
Weather issues mask the audible differences.

On the other hand, if results of a test are positive, I might be more inclined to think something might be going on since positive results were obtained IN SPITE of all the pitfalls. But, generally to be convincing tests should be repeatable and transferable. One test has very little significance especially if the results are negative."

The crap is where the details are jea48:

- Buried in some ... probably a lot of my messages back and forth with Geoffkait was that I was specifically referring to, and I used these words, analog audio signals and "non time dependent digital signals". I used those words very specifically as most DACs today either reclock the external optical or digital serial audio data and/or they are USB based and hence generate a local clock for audio. I specifically took time dependent digital signals out of my discussion, because as I clearly stated above as well, MHz level digital signals have 10's and 100's of MHz bandwidth and hence are subject to transmission line effects.

Let's add the most obvious reason in the case you provided, RCA connectors are not controlled impedance connectors which is why most good equipment has BNC connector now. (p.s. probably even before that article you linked was written, I was modifying my equipment to better match source/load impedance to the cable, a specific cable, to minimize jitter). DACs were not nearly as good back then. 

AND, I never said the energy travels back and forth from source to load. That is how you are interpreting it, and that is wrong.  I said it travels both directions in the loop, and that electrons flow through the whole loop, which means they are impeded by and pass through the interconnect (or fuse) in both directions, equally, outside of transmission line effects, which don't come into play at analog audio frequencies coupled with SNR and mismatch timing/amplitudes. I will throw in that skin effects in any tolerable cable at audio frequencies, SNR, loading is also a null proposition w.r.t audible differences.

Here is the thing jea48, the claim, at least from MFRs, many users are more honest, is that they ALWAYS improve. My $100 one is good, $1000 amazing, and $10000 totally stupendous, and you have to admit MFRs and users make these claims.

Tell me, how do you match said cables to equipment that has tolerances in the few percent range? .... and claim "always better"?

It is just you george, I am in your head and you can't get rid of me, no matter how many senseless questions you may pose on this thread :-)

... but on a serious matter, do you even know many of the designers of these most contentious products in the audio industry?

Some of them really know their stuff. Some of them I think would have trouble screwing in a light bulb without a Youtube video. However, they are really good marketers and hence they move a lot of products.... and they have a whole army of GK's to help them :-)

george, george, george. I will take that as a qualified no :-)

In yourrrrr head
What's in your head, in your head
Zombie, zombie, zombie-ie-ie

Two words ....

Magic Pebbles


I rest my case.


geoffkait17,701 posts10-24-2019 6:32pmSomebody and I won’t mention any names didn’t understand Roberttcan the question. The question has nothing do with directionality but is a very general question. What is the audio signal? Hint - it’s not the audio waveform. Or is it? You tell me. There are many reasons why the audio signal can be degraded or improved, no? Better interconnects, better power cords, better amplifier, isolation and other tweaks. So, gentle readers, what change occurs to the “audio signal” that would improve or degrade it? In order to answer that question you have to know what the audio signal is one would think.

I won't say what I want to say, so I will paraphrase. Absolutely Nothing At All. It is a whimsical attempt to use a book of knowledge one person has in one area to justify a potential phenomena, i.e. that fuses are directional, in the framework of audio equipment (debatable of course). 

If fuses do really have directionality w.r.t. detectable sound reproduction (repeatable, testable, verified), then a whole host of other common electrical and electro-thermal properties are far more likely.


jetter1,402 posts10-24-2019 5:27pmJEA and all, WTF. For those of us who have no clue and maybe a bit less interest, what does the answer to above mean to the sound of the music?

The cables she uses are heavily shielded due to the extreme, extreme low signal levels, and that is why they are shielded, not because the underlying physical cable is directional.

Are you saying the cables are submerged in liquid nitrogen in use?

So ... a theory was posited (well stated as fact), that the signal being AC (changing polarity) mattered not w.r.t. cable being not directional, and that cables were directional because energy only flowed in one direction, towards the load.  Claims were made w.r.t. current in speaker wires, and in AC wires that the current moving away from the load had no audible effect, and hence could be ignored and because of this, interconnects were directional. I expect most on this forum would not be in a position to agree with this or refute it. 

The first statement about energy transfer direction is correct, as the energy flows towards the load along the Poynting vector. The Pointing vector defined the flow of energy in an electrical circuit. The second statement is not correct. It sounds right based on the first statement but it is not.

The Poynting vector is the spacially integrated cross-product of the E (electric) and B (magnetic) fields, over the WHOLE circuit, and that everywhere current is flowing (in a wire), there are E and B fields, meaning that EVERYWHERE current flows impacts the Poynting vector. If you didn’t have current flowing both towards the speakers AND away from the speakers, you wouldn’t have E and B fields and you wouldn’t have a Poynting vector and you wouldn’t have energy transfer from the source to the load. The current traveling to the speakers and away from the speakers are equally important in defining the Poynting vector.

At a macro level, the Poynting vector is the same for both polarities of the AC signal, as the E-field is structurally the same, but as opposed to that justifying interconnects are "directional", the opposite are true outside of transmission line effects.

geoffkait17,732 posts10-13-2019 7:51amibmjunkman

You can ignore the current traveling in the direction away from the speakers, I.e., toward the wall, since that direction of current flow is not (rpt not) audible. The only direction that’s audible for any wire is the one toward the speakers. It is the speakers that ultimately produce the sound you hear. So, it’s the “quality” of the current traveling toward the speakers that is the issue. That’s why fuses sound better in one direction, worse in the other direction in AC circuits and DC circuits. As Old Blue Eyes sez, that’s life.

geoffkait17,732 posts10-19-2019 4:18pm

>>>>While that’s true, and for virtually all cables and power cords - the current alternates. 🔛 But you can ignore 😳 the current when it’s traveling in the direction toward the wall outlet. 🔜  The only direction we care about is the one that drives the speakers. That’s the direction that is audible.