Interconnect Directionality

Problem with the internet ... you don't know if you missed an inside joke, intentional trolling, or gross misunderstandings ... or all 3 wrapped up into one.

There is nothing "to prove", though this would typically be later year electrical engineering, engineering physics, physics material related to electricity so it is not surprising that many people do not know it. Asking me to prove it is like asking me to prove 1+1 = 2. It just is.
However, let's go point by point (all 2 of them).

1. It is not the electrons moving toward the voice coil or the electrons moving away from the voice coil that we care about, it is the electrons in the voice coil.
   
2. The energy imparted to those electrons in the voice coil is dependent on the total e-field (electrical) and b-field(magnetic) in the complete electrical circuit made up of the conductors going to the speaker and away from the speaker.

I know you make fun of people who use Wikipedia, but a perusal of Wikipedia and other sights may improve your understanding of how energy transfer via electricity works. Your interpretation below is not accurate.

geoffkait17,948 posts11-03-2019 4:01pmLet’s summarize, shall we?

“Speakers work by converting electrical energy into mechanical energy (motion). ...In speakers, a current is sent through the voice coil which produces an electric field that interacts with the magnetic field of the permanent magnet attached to the speaker.”

So, it’s current that provides the energy to the voice coils, current that alternates between the + and - wires. Whilst traveling toward the speaker on + wire current travels in the opposite direction on the - and vice versa. Thus, only the outgoing current - i.e., toward the speakers 🔜 - affects the sound of the speakers. The ingoing current - the current going toward the amplifier 🔙 - does not (rpt not) affect the sound. The current alternates at the “instantaneous frequency” of the audio waveform. See, that wasn’t so difficult, was it?

You are showing a critical misunderstanding about the way electrical fields develop leading to induced magnetic fields and energy transfer in an electrical circuit.


Directionality can exist when one considers minor differences in cable construction and the timing of reflections due to transmission line effects that would differ in each direction, but those effects arise with very fast edge rates (not analog interconnects as the topic of this thread), not to mention that would also assume some level of impedance matching, something not really existing no matter "claims" when you have source and load impedances significantly mismatched and then non-impedance controlled connectors in the middle, and then cables that exhibit the exact construction end to end. Sure you could make a cable whose impedance changes end to end and that would be technically directional, even though you would be just changing the problem with the mismatched connectors, etc. etc.

However, you are implying something completely unrelated it seems w.r.t. fundamental conduction and energy transfer that is simply not true.

Potential and moving electrons everywhere in the circuit, whether moving in-bulk towards the speaker, amp, whatever, or moving away are responsible for the total e-field and b-field and hence are also responsible en-mass for the energy imparted to those electrons in the voice coil (which moves the speaker ultimately).
If you want to make an "instantaneously" in time argument, then only the electrons in the voice coil matter and the ones outside it whether moving towards or moving have mathematically 0 impact.

If you accept they are truisms, then you must accept that your explanation is wrong.

Your second statement about "pushing it out" and "pulling it back" ... maybe you should read that again and ask yourself that if you believe this to be true, then if the statement you made is correct.

Again to clarify, my two statements, that you agree are truisms, say everything that is needed to prove that your statement is not true.

geoffkait17,959 posts11-04-2019 6:59amatdavid

Those two statements are truisms, and no one ever said they aren’t true, at least I didn’t. But it’s like saying the sky is blue. It isn’t really evidence - much less proof - that my explanation of how current in the speaker cables or any AC circuit works is not true. There is power at one + or - wire at a time. It is never simultaneous. Even for high frequency AC at 20 kHz or whatever.

One wire pushes the speaker out, the other wire pulls it back. When hooked up out of phase the opposite occurs.

"You say" ... so you created a new hypothesis for electricity that you have not shared with the scientific community at large for peer review? oooookay.


So now we are down to the crux, since I pointed it out, the only justification is asymmetry, which would show up as impedance mismatches which gets us back to lack of high speed edges (frequencies) on analog interconnects, the short distance of said interconnects, and the already gross mismatch in impedance between analog interconnects and source and load impedances and connector impedances .... and no, not everything matters. Some things actually don’t matter.

You can claim that wire is directional, as it is, which will express as some reduction in SNR or IMD at some frequency bandwidth, with some given source, load, and connector and cable impedance .... because it is.


You cannot claim it is "BIG" because factually that is not remotely true, no matter how many pieces are in the chain, because the total chain length is short, the frequencies low, the dynamic range minimal w.r.t. that frequency, and variability of other components in time generating far large changes making detection of directionality (if there is any) pretty much impossible.


The simple act of getting your ass out of a chair, walking to your equipment, making changes to your equipment (cable direction), walking back to your chair, and sitting down, would create more short term physiological changes that would impact hearing and perception than cable change ever could eliminating any ability to detect changes short term.

Longer term changes in temperature and humidity in the listening environment, day to day, even hour to hour diet and health changes, etc. would again swamp out any potential difference in cable direction.

geoffkait17,964 posts11-04-2019 10:26amNo, I did not create the theory. Nor did I create reality. Reality is there to be discovered if a person is really interested in doing so. Take off your blinders and SEE! 👀 I’m glad you agree with with me about the wire asymmetry. Som there is still room for my theory, right? 😀 The first step in recovery is recognizing the problem. 🤗 I’m not saying directionality is all that matters. That’s an illogical argument. Of course there are other issues. Duh! But wire directionality is actually BIG because all cabling, speaker wiring, transformer wiring, capacitor wires, etc. are ....you guessed it, DIRECTIONAL. So we’re a long way from what is possible you know, sound wise. Follow?

You are out of your depth here, so I am cutting you some slack. You don't know, and you don't have to say it because it is obvious.
However, if you would like to address my arguments and redeem yourself, that would benefit you.

geoffkait17,968 posts11-04-2019 12:23pmYou’re new here so I’m cutting you some slack. If you don’t know just say you don’t know. There’s no reason to get yourself all worked up. You can’t prove a negative. Relax and enjoy the ride.

New here, not "new".

I don’t know why big fish in a small pond assume they are "big fish".

I have made lots of real arguments. You have not made any ... at all. You made a statement that showed a lack of knowledge. I didn’t. You even agree that the statements I made are accurate ... which you should realize, negate what you said. You have actually not refuted anything I said. If anything, you agree with them.


The only one pounding their chest, is you actually. It is not me making the claim of "BIG", that is you. To claim "BIG", you would assume one would be able to qualify that statement in some .... any? fashion. But as of yet, you have not done that ... at all. You have just made a claim of "BIG". Perhaps you should start by qualifying how your arrived at "BIG", since saying that is the case, does not at all make it true. Since "BIG" is a significant adjective, I assume you can easily back that up? .... not that I think you will, I suspect there will be more "Birefringence" on your part ...

geoffkait17,971 posts11-04-2019 1:24pmI don’t know why newbies waltz in 🕺🏻here thinking they’re the smartest guy in the room. Looks like this a a stubborn case and will take some education, the one he didn’t get in school. By the way, you haven’t made any real arguments. So I can hardly dispute them. The ones you did make I disputed. You have been pounding your chest a lot, though.

So pretty much you are walking back your statement.

Let me remind you what you said: "IS ACTUALLY BIG"

But wire directionality is actually BIG because all cabling, speaker wiring, transformer wiring, capacitor wires, etc. are ....you guessed it, DIRECTIONAL. So we’re a long way from what is possible you know, sound wise. Follow?

And now, below .... well maybe it is big ... you know if it exists,  which I am not claiming it is .... but maybe it is .... in which case maybe it is big.

Your claim that "some audiophiles are knee-jerk reactionaries they refuse to listen" is just a false claim at best said to support an unsupportable hypothesis. I could make a similar and more supportable claim that "most audiophiles refuse to listen without their eyes".


One thing is clear now, why you edit so often :-)

geoffkait17,972 posts11-04-2019 2:33pmI already explained what I meant by BIG, maybe you were too busy flapping your gums, but I don’t mind explaining it again.

It’s BIG because - if true, the directionality of wire in a fuse or speaker cables, for example, means that ALL wire in the entire system is directional. I’m not even trying to PROVE wire is directional. I’m simply suggesting if it is, then look at the logical conclusion. But since some audiophiles are knee-jerk reactionaries they refuse to listen. But if they did listen they would be able to make BIG strides in improving their system’s sound. Which they won’t, because they would rather fight about it. How’s that? Do you see what I meant by BIG now? All of that from one tiny wire in a fuse. That’s BIG!

geoff? Is that you? Are you projecting again?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but no Wikipedia involved in my posts, though a quick perusal of your posts suggests you quote Wikipedia ....a lot.

Nope, not reading comprehension here geoff. I am simply repeating your words back to you .... you know they are there for everyone to see and I always make sure to keep a copy so you can't go and change it and claim you said something else.

You have to stop with these straw-man arguments, it is pretty much admitting that you have lost. I don't know why you keep insisting that you do that.

And now come on geoff, you know the sky really is more clear, but appears blue due to Raleigh scattering when the sun shines on it :-)