With my new pair of Guarneri Hommage's, I am using a Jeff Rowland model 8 ( 250 watts per channel) and it is magic.
Seems like these two were made for each other.
Try and hear the model 8 without mods if you can, the original choke power supply is far superior to the later versions.( Also, according to Jeff, far more expensive to manufacture)
So, like the above posts, I agree that these speakers seem to need some real stick up line. |
Deaf, something just occurred to me, are you using a pair of Guarneri Hommage or are you using a pair of Guarneri Memento's? The Memento's are still part of the current line up...the Hommage's are not. It seems a little odd that the dealer you are demo'ing from has the GH's! The Mementos look VERY similar BUT are a different speaker. Some of the aspects that you are attributing to this speaker are IMHO a little like the sound of the GM's. |
Deaf_in_left_eye, I think that as I have said before, you are simply NOT hearing the GH's for what they can do.
As we talked about before, the other equipment that you are using is just not in the same league as the GH's! What you are now listening to, is not in fact really the GH's doing there thing, BUT the true sound of other gear.
It may seem hard to fathom this, but the GH's are truly dependent on what is fed to them upstream. I can well understand your preference for the Yamaha's since they are far more in synergy with your other equipment. I really think that you are attributing various attributes to the GH's that are in fact not their fault at all.
For instance, in my system they have a VERY wide and deep stage that allows all the musicians to be in their own space with plenty of air around them. The reproduction of human voices and strings of all kinds is IMHO as close to real as any speaker I have heard. ( I have owned 'stats',planars, and many other speakers over the many years).
It seems to me a real pity that you are coming to these conclusions with out the benefit of truly hearing what these speakers can do.
If I can give you an analogy; it would be like this: You just bought a Ferrari and you are using diesel gas in the tank... Not only does it not run well, BUT you cannot even out accelerate your Honda Accord. Therefore, you feel that the Honda is a quicker and better car! |
Deaf_in_left_eye.
I agree with most everything that Lloydelee21 has said. Without a doubt, the GH's are NOT going to plumb the depths of music reproduction. As I said before, they fall off fairly drastically below about 50hz. A sub would be a very good idea if you want to get information below that. Also, you would gain a better foundation to your music. This is absolutely correct. However, in your room, which is appx. the same size as my room and therefore very small, a sub is a very very difficult thing to integrate. I have not chosen this route, simply because I know that my odds of success are slim. Far better, IMHO, is to do what I have now done...that is add room acoustic treatments. If you look again at my system pictures, you will see that I have added bass trapping which has garnered a VERY BIG improvement. Nonetheless, I still think that your gear needs to be changed for you to begin to hear what the GH's can do.
I have heard Belden cable, which again IMHO, isn't even high-end. Like Lloyd said, even a change there would produce tremendous results. Unfortunately, the only way you are going to know if what we say is true, is to try out our advice and see. I can think of no other method.
IF you decide to keep the GH's, then I would say that they would be a GREAT FOUNDATION to a superb system. However, a foundation is all they would be. |
Hi Deaf, I would suggest an S/Pdif on Coaxial if you have the ability to connect that way.A digital co-ax would be highly preferable to the Toslink. I use a Harmonic Tech Platinum digital cable that seems to be a good connection as an example of a co-ax connect. In regards to speaker/ic cables, I really like the Nordost line. As you can see, I am now using their Red Dawn Rev2 speaker cables and I am impressed by these.
I do think that the line below Red Dawn is too bright though, so you may want to start at Red Dawn or above. I'm not sure what is commonly available in Japan, if the Nordost is not, then I would suggest looking at the Furutech cables. BTW, I don't really understand why you cannot order gear off the web? Certainly cables are pretty easy to order online...I'm also fairly sure that ARC will be happy to sell you a piece if you don't have a local dealer, or at least refer you to a dealer in Japan. ( I would think there is one). |
Hi Onemug, I agree with what you say about a sub. However, don't you think that in a room as small as Deaf's and mine that a sub is likely to overload the room and cause more problems than good?
I have actually heard the Yamaha's that deaf is referring to.. They are able to drop down lower due to their 12" driver, however, they are very much like the old JBL's of the past that could move air, but that was about it.Frankly, I'm not sure that Deaf is looking to get past that sound.
If he is, then a willingness to give up the lower reaches of the bass and accept the gains in overall music reproduction across the rest of the board is something that he may want to live with. I have accepted that in my system, because I am very sure that in a room of these dimensions only so much is possible. Without question in a larger room that can accommodate bass below 50Hz, then a quality sub with the GH's is absolutely warranted. Alternatively, as Lloyd pointed out, maybe a more full range speaker would be appropriate....if one wanted to give up a little accuracy and acquire more full range.
IMHO, Deaf is trying out a speaker that is NOT showing him its true self, Because he is essentially system building from the wrong end. Again, IMHO, he would be much better served starting at the front end and working from there. Even if it means leaving the Yamaha's in place for the time being!
As I said in my previous post, putting the GH's in the system would be a great foundation to a superb system, BUT a foundation only...Until the front end is sorted out along with the rest of the system, I don't think that Deaf will be able to hear what the GH's can really do. |
Deaf_in_left_eye, I can't talk for the other posters, but when I talk about your front end, I am referring to your source components. The Toslink connection IMHO, needs to be tossed (pun intended). I'm not sure that the imac with flac files is the way to go either, others with more experience on this area might comment.
The itunes platform apparently isn't that great for downloading hi-rez files. ( I am presuming you are using itunes?) ( see MF's comments in the new Stereophile)
The iDecco DAC might be ok, but I suspect that there are probably significant losses there as well. I heard a Peachtree Nova a few months ago and frankly it did nothing for me. Albeit, I heard the Nova used as a integrated and not as a stand alone DAC; the Nova was ahead of a Mac Mini feeding WAV files. IMHO, the sound was very thin and unimpressive.
I think that a better solution would be in the way of a stand alone transport and DAC along with a different set of electronics...I would dump the Mac integrated and look into maybe the new ARC Vsi60 or if funds allow a good tube amp and separate tube preamp. The preamp section is a really important part of one's system, IMHO. Besides the front end, this is where I suspect you are also loosing a lot of information. The aspect of a flattened sound and a distant presentation most likely can be laid at the integrated's preamp section along with the cables that you are using. |
Deaf, just to follow up on the article in Stereophile about the idecco. Art Dudley, the reviewer, suggests and uses the USB input from his Mac to the idecco. He also has various other suggestions that you might want to review about the hookup of the idecco. |
Deaf, reading the Stereophile review of the idecco, it appears that you need to use the fixed output option for the idecco. The follow up specs by JA were also interesting. To my mind, reading between the lines, JA seemed to think that the DAC was fairly good, BUT the various i/o options were not. It also seemed to me a luke warm write up by JA, due to various jitter issues and the like, that JA talked about. I got the impression that the idecco was very marginal in several areas.
As I have said before, there are many of these "Swiss Army knife" like audio pieces on the market now, all of the ones that I have heard are barely even mid-fi, IMHO. |
Deaf, You should look to the preamp... as I said before, as the culprit regarding your "smallness" of the soundstage! Luckily, I am familiar with the Mac C-40 and therein lies your problem. Pity you were changing amps, but didn't think to change preamps..:0(
In my system the GH's are anything but small in their ability to reproduce a soundstage. Mini-monitors, which these are in a sense, are well known for their imaging abilities...IMHO the GH's have this in spades. |
D.i,l,e, with that kind of a budget for a used preamp, I think you should have a very good selection. I personally really like the CAT preamps, IMHO, they are superior to the BAT preamps and most any other tube preamp you can name ( including most of the CJ ART preamps as well).
I think one could find a CAT Ultimate used for that price that again, IMHO, would be a step up over all of the BAT preamps ( except maybe the REX, which is out of your budget anyway).
As to a ss preamp, well, I feel that most of these are too dry for my liking, I also agree with you that that applies to most of the Levinson preamps...although I have NOT heard the LNP-2L. |
Hi D.I.L.E....glad that you are now considering keeping the GH's with a sub.
I do agree with Jman as well, when he says the GH's like tubes.( which is why I use a CAT preamp and swap in the ARC amp). If you can get your hands on a tube pre-amp or amp, then I think you will see what Jman and I are talking about.
BTW, I recently heard the GM's (ok not the GH's) with a Mac 275 reissue...worked very well. Some of the older Mac tube amps are great pieces and also work well with the SF's. However, I do think most of the Mac ss amps are a little cold and bright..
Remember, the GH's are highly resolving and will sound cold and bright with that kind of upstream gear. |
D.i.l.e--- I have heard most of the BAT preamps, including the 32SE. I think that the 32SE would be a much better match to the GH's than the C2200. YMMV.
Audition with your amp first if possible. |
Lloydelee21, I think what you say about CAT may apply to the amps, which are a little 'hands on'. However, I have not had any issues with my preamp over the many years that I have owned it, except to change tubes. I also think your suggestion of a ARC ref3 is a good one. Although, I would add that buying used, the standard caveats apply to all used gear, not just CAT.
IMHO, IF DILE could listen to the piece he is planning on Buying first that would be FAR more preferable. Even if the listening session has to be at the Dealer/Seller. |
D.I.L.E. I own a CAT SL1 Sig. This is the first preamp that Ken Stevens starting using the current heavy duty chassis with. I have rolled in tubes into my unit which I think has helped enormously. IMHO, this preamp is still VERY competitive with the best I have heard. If you can get a chance to listen, then i would suggest that you take that opportunity. I do ask that you inquire of the Seller as to how old the tubes are in the unit and if they have been changed out, what is currently being used. ( The choice of tubes can greatly change the character of the SL1, like most preamps that is sometimes NOT for the better). Another thing to consider, what amp you will be using with the preamp you will ultimately end up with? While the CAT works well with most amps in my experience, it's always possible that a mis-match could occur. So, if you like the sound of the pairing at your dealer, make note of that and ask the dealer what else he might suggest to give you the sound you like. Remember the GH's are ultra revealing, so a good quality amp is a must.
I think Lloydlee summed up what else to consider when listening to a preamp. One other thing, which sounds a little obvious but perhaps isn't: The preamp is the 'control center' of your system... You may want to make sure that it can control and hook-up to all the other gear that you plan on using..now and possibly in the near future. As an example of this, the CAT does not have a mono switch, so if you want to listen to a lot of mono LP's, this might be an issue. The CAT is also a single ended device that does not have the ability to output a balanced signal...some people want a balanced connection or require a balanced connection for their amp...again, IMHO, the CAT probably isn't for them. If you are planning a major home theater system, the CAT probably isn't going to do the job.
One other thing, I still think you may want to look at your source component first, before delving too much further into the amp/preamp changes. |
Hi Keiserrg, I do agree that Jadis makes some great pieces. I was able to hear the Orchestra with the GH's and liked the pairing very much.Not quite enough drive for the speakers, but still a very good sound and very smooth.
A few years ago, I was contemplating getting a Defy 7 Mk1V. Passed on that, and now I use an ARC D70Mk2 with rolled in tubes as my tube amp. The Rowland gives a very different "look" if you will vs. the tube amp. Currently, I am running the Rowland and I feel that the control the ss amp has with the SF's is better than the tube amp. As you know, there are trade-off's in everything in this hobby; the ss amp has slightly more punch and locks in the imaging better than the ARC; the ARC has more ability to portray depth and is better in the top-end air dept. I will try and hear a da88 with the GH's. Although, I must say, I do generally prefer a stand alone preamp and amp setup to the integrated route...Usually due to the fact that most all integrated's that i have heard lack ability in the preamp section. ( Especially compared to my CAT).
BTW, you might want to try some room acoustic treatments in your room, I wasn't a big believer in these either until I put some Real Traps into my system...now I see what all the fuss is about..:0) |
Hi Deaf, well like you said...it seems a lot has happened for you in the last few weeks..:0) Congrats on the Acapella's...are the Campaniles the speakers with the four 10" drivers per side? I haven't heard these, but i would think that you would need a VERY large room for them, wherein, I would expect a great sound. Horns aren't really my thing, but they are able to give one that 'BIG' sound and if that is what you like, then they are hard to beat.
BTW,I hope the GH's went to a good home. Do follow up with your impressions of your new speakers once you have had a chance to listen in your new abode.
Meanwhile, I'm glad I was able to help you with your system. |
