Indentical measurments = Identical performance?

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@theaudiomaniac 

I've got to say...you are really "living up" to your username.

Well i dont know of any measurments that take in to account the filtering our brain does with sound and music in general, but if the entire waveform is reproduced accurately, our auditory acuity or "golden ears" wouldn't need to be part of that equation. Because regardless of what we listen to, we still have to take in to consideration thr fact that we hear differently when compared to other animals.

I mean, it's like saying we have a full bottle of beer. What is missing that measurments won't tell us?

 

@erik_squires 

I agree with most of what you've written. 

If measurments are not science but only a standard for determining quality assurance, shouldn't that mean the Chinese audio gear that measures leaps and bounds ahead of other well-known brand is "better quality?"

Not trying to put words in your mouth. But I took what you said at face value.

I suppose that just because something is old, doesn't necessarily make it bad.

 

@theaudiomaniac 

Thanks for your post. But I wish you would have added something more constructive to this discussion. Surely you don't agree with electrical engineers. But afterall, they are the very people who design audio gear.

@erik_squires

Thank you for thr insight. That makes sense.

@danager

I think your analogy would be more suited when discussing the longevity or lifespan of something. For instance, do power conditioners help components live longer without intermittent failures?

Back to your ending statement - ASR is not measuring the right stuff.

I’m no advocate or fan per say, just want to know the truth.

Dynamic range, multi-tone, thd, headphone output power, output power of the analog/balanced stages, frequency response, and linearity.

Please excuse me if I missed one or two. But beyond these measurments, how can we conclusively prove that the DAVE is better than the Chord Hugo TT2?

Perhaps you can shine some light on this. Are there measurments beyond a null test that can find out if one DAC has greater instrument separation and detail?

@theaudiomaniac

 

Seems like you’ve got more "reputation" than Taylor Swift’s "are you ready for it?" Album. When you are cornered like this on a forum you are effectively "dancing with your hands tied," and may need a "getaway car" but don’t blame me!

Joking aside, that is an exceptionally weak answer.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/blind-testing-flaws-1

Just because we have elicited one our senses (sight)

That does not mean our results are valid. At some point, you would have no choice but to resort to guessing. If you get 9/10 right, that is like scoring the same on a multiple choice test when you guessed.

Bias is also found in blind listening test because:

1) we are aware a blind test is being conducted and we are the subject

2) we want to be right, which clouds our judgements

3) we actively believe that something infallible is being conducted

4) we may easily confuse ourselves without other reliable senses (sight)

5) our conclusions will end up being s bunch of half truths and guesses.

 

For this reason, any listening session should be conducted like this:

1) listen to the gear

2) take notes

3) listen to another piece of gear

4) take notes

5) wait a day or two (as long as you need to forget)

6) compare the notes

7) audition the systems again to confirm that your notes align with your listening impressions

So I the same way that some people have an excellent visual memory,

We audiophiles have an auditory memory.  If we use it wisely, we hear differences.

 

 

@theaudiomaniac

There is bias in everything. Unless of course we are intellectually honest with ourselves. My method of listening allows a person to be absolutely certain about their listening impressions.

You listen, have a reference point, then revist your findings later and confirm them.

My method is repeatable and requires no further reductionism - because it is simple and straightforward, unlike blind testing which can become complex.

That makes perfect sense actually, just like test driving cars.

Blind testing is flawed and you know it - especially for audio.

Like wine tasting, some people can correctly identify which wine they tried.

Even at a later date. Australian red wine vs Italian red wine for example.

Like I said, way too many variables in blind testing for audio. It’s idiotic.

So is this your 16th audiogon account then? Lol

 

@danager

I never suggested test driving a car while using a blind method of testing.

Of course that would be extremely dangerous!

When you keep a process for testing simple - like test driving a car for example, you eliminate variables that would otherwise reduce the accuracy of the test itself.

So while one person may like the way a Mercedes looks, after test driving they make an informed decision about the handling, acceleration, interior quality, etc.

On the other hand, that same person could then go to a BMW dealership and pick out their new car at that dealership instead.

The simple fact that we know what is being tested does not reduce our hearing facilities or auditory memory. We are psychologically okay providing that we don’t allow the opinions of others or the spec sheet of the car get in the way of our real world experience - driving it.

Audio components and speakers work the same way.

@danager

What I’ve written has to do with common sense. What you’ve written has to do with exactly the same drivel that every person who believes in blind testing says. That, and some of my words in there for good measure to make yourself sound cohesive.

You know I’m right. Just like test driving a car, trying on a new suit, or visiting an open house.

Once you see/hear/experience for yourself, any preconceived beliefs you had about whatever it is will be crushed. You will only be left with how to piece together the reality or real world experience you just had.

So here is an example:

Dealer tells you about a system. You do research for a few days. You are super excited.you now have some preconceptions about this system sounding great with say, rock music and complex instrumentals because you were told so.

But then you go and listen. To your disappointment, the dealers description does not align with what you just heard.

You don’t need a blind test to confirm that your experience is true.

Same thing with any product or service you can imagine.

Sound itself is intangible but it can either impress us or leave us disinterested.

There is no middle ground or basis to your arguments.