Increasing gain for your vinyl front end when pre-amp doesn't quite have enough juice


Hi Folks, just wanted to get your thoughts on what route you would go if your pre-amp (I’m talking about a normal pre-amp, not phono preamp) doesn’t quite have enough gain for very high listening levels for my turntable set-up. Now, on my phono-pre amp, there is a setting for maximum gain (schiit Mani) up to 59db, but the S/N ratio takes a hit and goes down to 70db, however, it does pump out the needed volume. What about the idea of putting in a good (inexpensive headphones amp/preamp - one of those $99 guys - like schiit Magni, JDS Labs Atom or Monolith Liquid Spark) between the phono preamp and the regular preamp? Does this have the potential of producing the needed gain while at the same time not degrading the signal too much (perhaps not as much as full gain on the Mani?) Just wanted to see what you all think. To me it seems like less items in the signal chain the better, but if it has a higher S/N ratio could be a better option? (with the added benefit of listening to vinyl through headphones, which I’ve never done before.)
bstatmeister

Showing 14 responses by bstatmeister

Pretty sure my hearing is fine. (Although my kids screaming in my ear everyday probably doesn't help.)
Love my cart (nagaoka MP-150 I spent a long time researching and trying different carts already) and love my current phono-pre and not interested in spending more than $150 to 'fix' the issue. Between upping the gain on the mani or buying a headphones amp, what would you choose?
here is my chain:

Nagoaka MP-150>Technics SL1200MKII>Schiit Mani>Schiit Saga>Behringer EP2500>Vandersteen 2C

Schiit saga replaced an Onkyo 805 receiver recently
yes, my speakers are very inefficient Vandersteen Model 2C's from the late 80s. They need loads of juice to really make them rock. I just updated my Pre-amp to a Schiit Saga this past week, which is actually pretty awesome preamp (waaay better soundstage than the Onkyo receiver I was using as a pre before.) But the Onkyo had loads of gain, saga does not as it turns out.
My digital front end has no issues since my DAC has a built-in headphone amp (Audio-GD R2R-11) and can crank the knob and also set to high gain when needed. It's just the analog front end is a little light in the pants now.
Mulv:  "Doesn't your Mani have a 48 dB setting?" I do believe you are correct, I may have missed that setting and gone straight from 42 dB up to the highest gain 59dB. The dip switch gain settings on the Mani are a bit of a pain in the ass to deal with. (but god bless it, it's a good phono). I will play with that tonight when I get home. 

Lewm: to answer the questions: Nagaoka  4.5mV output MP-150. Mani only has a turntable RCA input and a single output. Amp is a behringer Pro EP 2500, 450 watts/channel into 8 ohms. I have the gain all the way up on these all the time. Here are some of the Behringer specs:
Voltage gain: 34Db
Input sensitivity: V RMS (@8W)  1.23V (+4.0 dbu)
Input impedence: 10kohm unbalanced / 20Kohm balanced (I'm using unbalanced

Didn't seem like there could be anything wrong with driving it at max gain from the phono stage, just not totally sure. That's why I wanted some tips/cautions/gold nuggets if possible from you fine folks. I love this site!

I was actually looking at possibly replacing the Vandersteens with the Magnapan LRS, but just found out it's less efficient than the Vandersteens! (LRS is 86bd, Vandersteen 2C is 88db) I know that is not a headbanger speaker, but was still hoping to play that one loud, as well.
Just about...and I mean this would only be when I can get the house to myself (which is rare unfortunately)...most of the time would be fine the way it is. I like the idea of having plenty of volume headroom (and I'm used to it, so it came as a bit of a shock)
Well, the Vandy's are on the 4th decade now. I love them, but they are old. Not sure what shape those old drivers are actually in. It may be time to put them out to pasture. My problem is that the speakers I want are too expensive (Vandersteen Treo $8400) That's why I was excited when I saw all the good press that the LRS was getting - and only $650) I was looking at the the Tekton DIs, but that one still may be a bit too much at 3K) although those are extremely efficient, dynamic and full range (Need my Dynamics!). but too ugly for WAF (although the Vandy model 2s not exactly known for their good looks either). Probably have more research to do for speakers for around 1k that are efficient and Dynamic
So after a bit of testing with the different gain settings on the Mani 48db is the best and can give me what I need at the highest volume levels when called for. I did try the 59db setting, but after trying a few records that are highly dynamic, such as Dire Straights Love over Gold, there was noticable distortion. Initially, I missed the 48db setting and went from 42db to 59db, so I'm glad you guys reminded of it. I think I'm good here at this point. I have a lot to think about regarding next pair of speakers. I might buy 2 pairs: a horn set for rocking out and the Magnapan LRS for when I want some finesse sound depending on my mood. Any one have a good recommendation for a horn speaker for around $600 that is great bang for the buck? Thanks again folks!
Ok yep, I see...
What about the Hsu HB-1 MK2 Horn vs Klipsch RP 600M Reference?
Anyone have any opinions on the 2? Dynamics/slam (but non fatiguing) is #1 priority for me with my "rock" speakers
Don’t worry, I won’t. I may end up back with the Vandy’s if the others aren’t cutting it. I feel like I am on a speaker journey, however, and must see what else is out there...
@chakster the Zu's look nice but pretty darn pricey. I could possibly do the dirty weekends, but that's about it since $ is tight. Are you a fan of the dirty weekends?