@ghdprentice

I think this comment of yours identifies the point of contention. Playing music and music (movies) by definition is a home theater system.

OK.

The assumption that a home theater system will reproduce music as well, very few of us would agree with.

I would say this is another point of contention. The content creators seem to feel that indeed, a "home theater" system can produce music beautifully. Look at the artists and engineers who have their feet in both worlds. Look at the AES event coming up next week on immersive audio:

https://aes2.org/events-calendar/2023-aes-international-conference-on-spatial-and-immersive-audio/

The studios are converting to immersive audio in droves (because it sucks???):

https://www.mixonline.com/tag/atmos

Most of us want the very best audio playback possible.

OK

That requires the very highest quality and fewest components possible.

That is exactly why the AES, Dolby, THX, etc. have standards. I have to agree with @mahgister that you have to start with acoustics first.

Those of us that have, or tried both know that multichannel is highly compromised with respect to music… so, say for an investment level.

I think you have another point of contention, Atmos/spatial audio/Sony 360 audio drops on Tidal and Apple music are snowballing because... ??

So, I am confused as to what the point is.

My point is to not sink your budget into ONLY a channel based system , include BOTH a channel based AND an object based preamp/processor to enjoy ALL that the streaming services have to offer.

 

@ghdprentice 

Listen to 25 or 6 to 4 on the album Only the Beginning by Chicago in Dolby Atmos for a good example of having "enough space for everybody":

Immersive audio is NOT surround sound, see:

Audio Engineer Stan Kybert:

So how does Dolby Atmos actually work? 

On a technical level, where stereo audio is limited to two channels of output, Atmos offers 128 discrete locations to send audio, which can move and alter at the mixer's requirements, utilising a connection to a supported DAW (Pro Tools, Logic, Ableton). While like 5.1 or 7.1 it uses a surrounding array of speakers for mixing, it doesn't suffer from the former's required numbers of speakers , and as a medium is adaptable to any system with Atmos technology installed.

“It is so much more”, says Stan. “You might have a forward-facing Dolby Atmos mix - drums, bass and vocal - coming at you and then you'll maybe use the Atmos technology to wrap an orchestra around the listener. Or you have extra width. With stereo there is this trend to use wideners but with Atmos it can be as wide as you ever need it and as tall as you ever want it. 

“The tools that Atmos gives me in height, width, depth and sub are everything you need in comparison to stereo. In stereo you are always making sacrifices when mixing, like if you want to hear the guitar you may have to turn the Hammond down. You are constantly having to make decisions and carve out EQs in consideration of what other instrumentation is playing. You don’t need to do that in Atmos as there is enough space for everybody. The music is so dynamic, and it is such a joy to experience.”

https://www.musicradar.com/news/an-audio-engineer-explains-why-dolby-atmos-music-is-definitely-going-to-supersede-stereo

@ghdprentice

My job was to evaluate new technology

I can see your background in tech when you are dispensing advice in your posts, its very clear and articulate. I also see it in your room, its setup like an engineers space, with precision.

So, remember Quadrophonic… four channel sound

I want the Black Ice Audio F360 that has a Jim Fosgate design. It is today’s version of Quad, I could slide it right into my rack and connect the RCA outs to the RCA ins on my active speakers (the XLR ins are connected to my Marantz processor and I could toggle between both preamps). I can get it at a reasonable price, its all analog, tube based. See the Zeos review. "Quadraphonic is Back" here:

https://youtu.be/noe6GsyYDJc

So, multiple channels comes up again.

In an object based format that is backward compatible with everything, yes.

Which is fundamentally different than audio only at this time… if you are interested in high quality reproduction of music.

At this time...2023? No, we can agree to disagree here. Atmos music and concerts on blueray are NOT Hollywood movie productions, in the least.

Great, there are a few albums in Atmos that sound great on a mid-tier home theater system.

Here I am confused, what albums and whose system? There are tons of great albums in Atmos on streaming services that sound fantastic on even budget systems according to the reviewers. This is Andrew Robinsons opinion of the Sony HT-A9 and I think this system would serve Joe Sixpack well:

https://youtu.be/eHcjvdGbaa0

So what. I have access to millions of albums in red book CD quality and over half a million in high resolution formats that will sound better on a two channel audio system… by far.

How can I argue what you have? It is a SOA two channel system, built by an expert in technology with a six figure budget. I got no beef and am thrilled for you. yes, I would very much enjoy a stereo that has been purpose built over years (decades) too, great job!

What I am very concerned about is sending the message to folks that want a great music system into chasing a dream that is not there yet.

I am very concerned that someone starting out today that has a budget (large or small) would waste it by building only half a system, a channel based one, and not be able to experience all that object based audio has to offer.

If I really want to hear great immersive audio… music… and have $10K, $50K, or $200K, then home theater is not it. End of story.

So, let me add to your opinion with facts, anyone wishing to experience GREAT immersive audio is invited to stop by my other thread on getting a proper setup and you can get started for under $2K and build a blow your sox off, SOA system for under $50K:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-setup-your-room-for-atmos-and-immersive-audio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@hsbrock 

Technically, to record at 128 discrete locations would require the mixer to combine them faithfully in, what, 128 to what power number of ways to choose from? 

When I see the high channel account I think that is for movie theaters. If you check out the thread I link to above it lays out how most mix studios are setup in a 7.2.4 format and the highest count they generally use is a 9.6.6 format.

And even audiophiles to check out any and all latest technological developments that could prove beneficial. "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good."

This is why I think I adopted object based audio and not SACD, it was too expensive to buy new discs at $20-$50 a pop. Now, $ a month and you get everything? losless, hirez, and object based audio? Not being able to use it all is simply a waste if you are already paying for it in your subscription.

 

The Modern Rock Producer: Steve Wilson Interview:

At :45 min in the video below, "listen to records the way you used to listen to records, the way you don’t anymore" on getting people together in a great atmos or acoustics room and taking them on a musical journey. He laments over the fact that most people don’t have a proper 7.1.4 atmos setup so he sets up listening sessions in studios just so people can here it "proper".

Rick Beato Interviews Steve Wilson:

https://youtu.be/03vThmG46A8

 

 

The George Harrison Atmos remixes are breathtaking. When you hear George singing on "Give Me Love-(Give Me Peace on Earth)" it is like you never really heard him before. So close, so in the room with you, I think it is a combination of 21st century science resurrecting the original masters and then doing what object based audio does best, giving each sound a lifelike, textural quality in its own space, truly beautiful.

70's: Dolby Atmos on Tidal Playlist

The George Harrison Catalog Available in Atmos:

Dhani Harrison said, “22 years since his passing, for what would have been his 80th birthday, I am overjoyed to announce that we are bringing my father’s music catalogue back home to Dark Horse Records, the company he started back in 1974. We look forward to releasing only the finest of packages and hope the fans join us on the deepest of dives into our archives as we continue to grow his legacy through our partnership with BMG, starting with the release of his entire back catalog in Spatial Audio.

https://www.thatericalper.com/2023/02/22/george-harrison-recorded-catalogue-available-now-in-dolby-atmos/

@jeffrey125 

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. As for this thread converting I don’t feel that is here or there. The INDUSTRY is not "converting", it converted already. When they showcased electric lights at the worlds fair did NYC or LA convert? Nope, that took decades. Heinz converted his factory to electric power 10 years before Ford did. The audio industry "converted" not when Atmos got invented, not when I bought an Atmos capable processor, but when Apple (about the largest company in the world by market cap) converted to spatial audio. Listen to producer Steve Wilson in this video at the :40 second mark:

"It Suddenly Became All About Atmos"

When I sit in my listening room for an Atmos session I turn down the lights and bring up Tidal Atmos playlists. Every time you see a song you know and love, regardless the artist or genre you get a pop of anticipation. There are NEW drops every week, like a "Tidal" wave that just keeps coming.

You hit the play button on "Pet Sounds" or "Your Song" by Elton John, or "Landslide" or whatever and you wait. Nearly every time in my room the vocals just bring you closer to being in the studio than anything else. It doesn’t even have to be the main singer, with the Beach Boys it is the chorus, with Elton or Ella or Sting it is uniquely them. Instruments in the track that used to be just a blur in the background are now distinctly contributing in their own space (percussion instruments, horns, cymbals, etc). Horn sections are stunning in the distinctness and tone of each horn, in its own space. Sometimes a horn section can just mash together you know? I am posting what I like, that’s all.

@mahgister 

Thanks so much for the links, I'm glad to see I have a clear path to upgrade when I get the BACCH filters. The author astutely notes the drawbacks of bulkiness and complexity of setting up a system. 

@ghdprentice

You are the DIY guy in this thread, the first thing I noticed on the BACCH website is licensing opportunity, care to weigh in please? It seems right in your wheelhouse of new technology, thanks.

https://www.bacch.com/our-ip

 

@mahgister 

Great review, but the $23K price of entry is steep . If you already have a two channel system and don't want all the complexity of a 7.2.4 system, this would be the way to go IMO, especially when this reviewer couldn't tell the difference between his $47K DAC and the BACCH unit with the $4K DAC upgrade:

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/theoretica-applied-physics-bacch-sp-adio-stereo-purifier/

@mahler123 

All I can say is the Atmos version of Per Sounds (I was just listening to God Only Knows yesterday) is much clearer than the stereo/hirez versions. I'll go back and listen to it again specifically for height channel stuff, yesterday what I noticed is the clarity and distinctness of the vocals. The atmos effect in my room is non localized, you don't hear the top speakers doing this and the surround speakers doing that. It is a coherent, distinct presentation that is simply more distinct. The tone of each instrument, the soft percussion instruments more distinct in their own space. Now you have me curious and I will give it another listen and post.

Another great album in Atmos is Chicago's Greatest Hits, not only are the horns more realistic, but depending on the song they can wrap around you like a horseshoe, as if you are in the studio. The only time you may hear something directly emanating from overhead on any of the tracks I played would be like the thunder in the beginning of Riders on the Storm by the Doors. 

@mahler123

I gave "God Only Knows" a critical listen in Atmos. What I noticed was the very distinct and separate percussion section in the beginning of the song, the bells and wood blocks clearer and more distinct than I ever heard in a stereo mix. The richness in the vocals and then the highlight is the richness of the various voices singing the "god only knows" harmony in layer upon layer. That might have been where Giles introduced more of the height channels, as the vocal pitches go higher in scale he might have lifted or stacked the vocal objects higher in the mix but they never got higher than about a foot above my front speakers. Definitely a nice use of the sound stage though.

Giles describes the Atmos mix better here:

We can recreate that realism, if you like. That’s why I’m saying it’s not a psychedelic record—it’s a very real record. There’s the sound of air being pushed through lungs, and wind going through instruments. There’s a beauty to all of that.

That "realism" is what I am describing as distinct and you REALLY notice it on vocals, that realism. 

I was listening to Elton John in Atmos, Rocket Man is breathtaking, mixed by Greg Penny. Listen to Greg break it down. Elton John tells Greg, "That’s it, I want my whole catalog in Atmos", after hearing that track. Listen to the interview here:

https://youtu.be/ggzfcUKDqdo