I went from Class D to Luxman A/AB - And most of what you think is wrong

ERIC, my bugaboo is with certain review entities, specifically Srajan. As I no longer have an interest in non class D amps, and a keen interest in new class D, I suggested that in his Archives he put class D in it's own amp category. He basically told me to pound sand 

audiofun. Thanks for your input, and behind the scenes insight.

About a year ago I upgraded my Oppo 105 oem SMPS to a modified LPS from Ebay (~$130). To my ears it is a huge improvement

erik, your main point makes perfect sense, and should regardless of new kit.

I would not make a buying decision on a unbroken in product of any kind (what audiophile would?). While I currently enjoy my AA DPA-1, I also bought a pair of PS Audio M700s that were likely sold for the very reason you state.

When I quizzed the seller, he said they had < 100 hours. BUT, several reviews indicated that they needed closer to 200 hours and then were pretty darn good, especially at $3K MSRP, let alone what I paid for them.

Alas, many claas D amps haven't gotten the interest from review magazines.  Still I didn't evaluate either of amps until > 100 hours break in, then another 100 using various mixing break in discs through the entire system. In both cases after 200+ hours, they got even better

Not being familiar with the Luxman 507 ux  I decided to do a search (it's a integrated amp), but only found the latest version, the 507uxII. Positive Feedback reviewed it in September of 2018. This is what PF had to say
>
 " L-507uXII is biased relatively richly into Class A operation, and indeed, while the amplifier never ran hot, it did get quite warm under normal operating conditions, so be advised that adequate ventilation is required. Having said that, the Luxman's sonics improved noticeably as it warmed up, and I typically left the amplifier powered up continuously to ensure optimum performance.

> The L-507uXII likewise reproduced the treble range with a level of transparency and refinement that was unique in my experience. Cymbals, bells and other high-frequency instruments were reproduced with a clarity and ease that was utterly beguiling.

>  The only potential limitation to the Luxman's performance was in relation to its ability to recreate a soundstage. This is not to say that the L-507uXII was was a slouch in the soundstaging department. Far from it. The Luxman threw a wide, deep soundstage, populated with palpable images. However, image layering and focus within that stage was not as finely-drawn and tactile as I've heard from competing amplifiers.   "

MSRP $6500. The MSRP of the 507 uX looked closer to $4700.
There are a lot of really good sounding current tech (not accounting for GaN) class D amps (no integrateds) in the ux price range to consider. The highs could be abated with input op-amps and/or cabling.

Now I realize teo-audio was talking about his observation after his class D Ice amp was powered down for a couple days with what input buffer?), but who needs to do that when they are so efficient?  Seems like a nothing burger to me

after reading George's reply to whomever wrote about GaN switching speeds:

"This is so correct, but so far it seems that only one has utilized this ability to take the higher switching speed up to 1.5mHz available with GaN (2.5 x higher than present), and that is Technics with their SE-R1, it does mean they had to use heatsinks to get it."  

After reading this I am wondering what part this feature on the EVS 1200 product page would play in better sound, and is the a relationship between it and switching speed

EVS Product Page

I install my own custom input circuit on the module for way lower distortion.

George

I too am a fan of certain class D amps, with plenty I haven’t heard. Ive owned quite few SS amps from tube/ss hybrids to AB to the class A Kinergetics KBA 75, which to this day was the best amp Ive heard here, My system then consisted of Genesis 5s made especially for Harry Pearson. I don’t recall what the front end was. The KBA was the only amp of the many I tried that grabbed ahold of the Gen5 mid/tweeters and made them perform to their potential. Sadly, one afternoon I was comparing power cords, and apparently didn’t let the caps drain. When I plugged the new one in sparks flew and it was toast. KBA was out of business then so... I don’t recall the other amps I tried, but none made the grade. The guy I bought them from had BAT monos, but I never heard his system.

The point Im trying to make is all types of amps have issues and I could hear the issues with the many amps Ive owned. Happily, I have never been exposed to what the frequency band distortions sound like that some here cannot get past. Perhaps if someone were to take me into their lab and play the distortions for me, I might change my mind, but thankfully, I don’t hear it, and thankfully I can buy a Rad EVS 1200, 600w, dual mono with highly tweaked boards and chassis, among other thoughtful tweaks for $2200. Ric Schultz, the brains behind this amp, mentioned that the new Van Alstine DVA 4/2 stereo amp sounded really good, and could be tweaked to sound even better. Probably a great bargain at $3699, but comparing watts to watts his V 600w monos start at $2499 per. Anyway I already pushed my budget to $2200, so Im just glad I don’t hear what annoys some of you

Tim, now that's funny, Maybe he has alien hearing

George, you continually exhibit selective memory. Your ad nauseum mantra, makes me wonder WHY you persist?

WE ALL GET IT: you’re not a fan. Neither are you ’converting any of us, so what’s your point?

Oh, and FYI, ALL genres of amps have Achilles Heels.

Previously, I pointed out the high cost of 300 wpc+ UNLESS going class D. GaN may solve the issues deter you, but they will also be uber expensive, at least for the foreseeable future

I have owned quite a few SS and tube amps as well as class D over the last 10 years, none compared to either my Audio Alchemy DPA-1 or the PS Audio M700s @ 350 wpc MSRP $2995 the pair. And I have previously stated I have a RicSchultz EVS 1200 on order; 600 wpc, dual mono, highly tweaked board and chassis for $2200

George

You have made your position on Class D perfectly clear. It would be nice if you would take a time out from the back and forth, especially since you haven't actually heard the newest offerings

Bottom line is, currently GaN offerings are quite expensive for the average audiophile. 

I am confident I am not alone in saying GaN is well beyond my budget, as are even 'reasonably' priced Van Alstine amps.

Considering that I am quite pleased with my Audio Alchemy DPA-1 (175 wpc) but appreciated the much needed SPLs in my 19 x 34 room that the  350w PS Audio M700s did, I am excited to hear Ric Shultz's EVS 1200, dual mono @ 600 wpc, which is affordable at $2200 including shipping AND 30 day money back guarantee

I suggest you get one before continuing your ad nauseum mantra

Ralph, not meant to be insulting, but couldn't you sell your products for a lot less? Nothing there that's cutting edge, though I do understand that highest quality parts cost significantly more

And wouldn't the GaN input buffers need to be a lot more exotic= $$$?

could this be what George is hearing? 

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/15/channel-d-presents-the-seta-buffer/

viber6, I think Ric Schultz said he could make theVan Alstines' sound much better. That's what I was referring to, though I failed to include it in my post

George hi fi says 

Yes expensive also but they are the new GaN Class-D technology, stuffed inside a stupid tube housing, to keep the tube guys happy.

This is hilarious. You must live in an all grey world

While it's true that the tubes do nothing, they are pure marketing genius. The tubes have probably done more to draw attention to GaN tech then anything on the market

And as I understand it, the parts in those tubes make up the main portion of the GaN tech, and as such, when the tech improves, these can be simply pulled out and replaced, instead of having a door stop or spending lots of money returning to manufacturer for upgrades 

erik

good luck with trying to shut him up. Clearly he doesn't get the message?

Just an FYI, I was reading my Audio Alchemy manuals last night, Turns out it is not 175 wpc, but 125 @ 8ohms and 200 @ 4 ohms. No wonder the 350wpc PSA M700s sounded significantly beefier.

Now, if I could just get an update on delivery of my EVS 1200 from Ric...  it's been over a month since I paid for it (7/02)

toetap,

Fortunately (for those of us who are in the market for a new class D), ric is not governed by the budget constraints of manufacturers who are not interested in going the extra mile, but will spend said monies on a prettier face plate. 

Ill bet his speaker binding post bypass ALONE is revelatory

Jetter

Whether you are interested in my reports is up to you

Do not confuse me with the facts

I have been an audiophile for 40+ years and even owned a retail company, and have read a ton of magazine reviews that left me perplexed as I had owned a fair amount of the kit in those reviews and did not have the same glowing experiences

As to actually hearing mine; it’s been over a month since plunking down my $2200, and still nothing from ric, which IMHO is not good business, so I am not a happy camper.

If it doesn’t significantly outperform my AA DPA-1 it will be returned for a refund

Just spoke with ric via phone, looks like mine will not be ready to ship until late next week. I told him he should let people know what his time frame is. I think he’s been preoccupied but now ready to stay focused

Hard for me to imagine zero improvement when direct soldering and using high end fuse, but then a lot of people seemingly cannot hear when polarity is out, so...

golfnuttz, 100 times? you tend to over exaggerate and are a bit misinformed; IcePowers' ability to drive difficult loads, oh, and FYI, the EVS consists of 2 1200AS1s’ which are mono modules

mapman +1

golfnutz, Your opinion s just that.

I have owned quite a few class Ds, including my current (npi) Audio Alchemy DPA-1 (125 wpc) which sounds terrific (see Mar/April 2016 TAS Review) and PS Audio M700s, which sounded excellent and provided a lot more spl in my big room

The only reason I still have the DPA 1 is that no one wanted it when I put it up for sale, but the M700s went qucik, as they should have.

The EVS comes with 30 day money back, so if my experience is similar to yours, it will be returned before I take full ownership 

ric,

I am roughly 2 hours south of Phil

I have a couple different XLR cables I could send, but neither comes close to my WireWorld XLRs, and that could be the issue many are having; that being their ICs and speaker cables simply are not a good match for such revealing amps

In reference to gfis incessant GaN, GaN or no class D rants, I suppose IF one drove a regularly aspirated high performance vehicle, then hopped on the same vehicle/engine but upgraded with twin turbos or a blower. The reat news is that eventually the tech trickles down.

HOWEVER, for many of us, the many benefits and sound quality of recent class D offerings has/have already put grins on out faces.. Case in point and speaking for myself only, my Audio Alchemy DPA-1 is immensely satisfying compared to my previous W4S and, Emerald Physics 100.2SEs, but my room demands more spls just to flesh out the music, not to blow out my eardrums

NOW, speaking to the current non-GaN offerings: if RICs pixy dust takes the IcePower to a much higher level for a mere $2200 (can’t believe Im saying "a mere $2200), but it is relative, then we can wait for GaN to come down to our budgetary level, Alas, who will buy or used D should they stumble across Gfis negative comments: GaN or bust? .

The only reason why I still have my DPA-1 is no one was willing to pay $850 for a product that MSRPed at $1995 3 short years ago, and got rave reviews in TAS and elsewhere. My PS Audio M700s @ 350wpa sold fast, but to my ears were no better, though double the power did a much better job of fleshing out my room, and likely do not compare to RICs EVS 1200 with pixy dust., but even the M700s were plugged into my 1800 CorePower, and since then, I have upgraded ICs, digital and speaker cables, so...

Gfi
I believe that was Mike Mivera
Funny, I went to his site 2 days ago. Unless you are a prior owner of his kit you cannot get into his site. I emailed him good luck with that. Why he responded, I have no idea, but, he responded  thusly " already have $800000 worth of OEM orders on the go. Along with $200000 of orders from my members. So not going too bad".

Anybody buying it? Not me

I was hoping to have some answers to that very question weeks ago

GFi
REALLY? You think RicEVS is 'stuck' selling only modified IcePower class D? Why would you think he is not able to switch to GaN anytime he feels it is ready for his Pixey Dust, and at a price his customers are able to afford?  I for one stretched to $2200

And again, ad nausea it seems, I and others here  have owned plenty of newer class D and are not bothered by the demons that keep you on your relentless soap box.
Why not just leave it alone. There has to be better things you could be doing with your time

Yes, but Cleese was acting

Ralph + 1 burn: Fanning the flames

luka

I do not like dry amps of any kind. Early digital could be the actual cause of your statement, but it too has evolved. Most likely, your issue is with impedance mismatch between the preamp and the amp input buffer 

I have owned many amps; class A/B, one class A, and a handful of tube amps. None were perfect and most did not compare to my current class D experiences.

I had a similar experience to yours with early W4S amps, but none of the class D amps I’ve owned in the last 4+ years have been dry. That said, one does have to up their cable game with class D as it often exposes issues upstream

how many class D amps have you owned?

Over the last decade+, I have owned several class D amps; W4S (stereo and multi-channel), PS Audio GCC 250 (~ 10 yo, and still functions really well in my TV system), Emerald Physics 100.2SEs, Audio Alchemy DPA-1 which for almost 2 years has been my main amp in my stereo system, and PS Audio M700s.

It's been a minute since my previous reply. Since then I have been enjoying an EVS 1200, Ric Schultz's highly tweaked take on IcePower dual 1200AS modules. And I loved it from the start as its 1200 wpc provides the authority my volumetrically large room needs to properly energize it.


Over those ~ 2 years, my cables have gone through a significant upgrade, and, I replaced my Emerald Physics (EP) KCIIs with EP 3.4s (12" concentric woofer with 1" polyester tweeters), but due to ignorance I never got around to replacing my optical cable with coax. Instead, thinking the dac in my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 needed upgrading. Not having the money to make a huge DAC/PRE investment, I tried a 1.0m Pangea Premier SE coax which was on sale from Audio Advisors.


I started a thread to discuss my journey, which included replacing the 1.0m with 1.5m then on to their 1.5m XL which is much more intimate, had much better bass (which is now way better) but slightly rolled off highs, until... Last night, after ~ 50 hours over a period of 5 days, the HFs opened up, and, bass/mids have really blossomed. Fantastic value for $150. How much better the more expensive coax cables are, I may never know.

The moral here is if one is not happy with what they're hearing from class D, it could be their cables

hth