I need help - Better DAC or NEW CD player?

I second the Benchmark, but I strongly disagree with:

"Asynchronous upsampling DACs like Benchmark DAC1 have very strong jitter rejection and transport should not make any difference as long as it is "bit transparent" (no DSP, no volume control etc.). With Benchmark you can use even cheap DVD player (great traction) and cheap coax or Toslink. Rejection of jitter (that is already at about -60dB) is at frequencies of interest (kHz) over 100dB - impossible to detect. In fact Benchmark is clean/transparent to point of being too clean (sterile)."

Bits are not just bits. The more involved I become with digital, the more I discover it is like analog. Even the net effect of "getting it right/better" has similar traits to having a turntable/arm/cart set up properly.

The Benchmark usb and up versions have not change to my knowledge. Furthermore, the Benchmark is sensitive to cords, power and fuses...

Mapman,

I stand by my original statement. I agree that all DACs sound different. I also assert that the connections make a difference, and that the Benchmark is not as immune to inputs as they claim it to be. The overall signature remains consistent, but the inputs sound different. I hear differences with USB cables, spdif and toslink. Furthermore on different cables of the same type and usb converters such as the hiFace- not to mention transports especially. I am not knocking the units at all- I own two, a USB version and the HDR one. I just feel it does a disservice to others perpetuating the myth (IMO) that bits are just bits. Bits are only just bits if they are there at the right time IME.

Bottom line, as with most things in audio, everything matters. Jitter is real, and you are best off avoiding it in the first place, as opposed to "dealing" with it after the fact.

Sorry Swanny,

That wasn't meant as a nitpick, but a by the by sort of thing. Async USB is new, and it gets thrown out there a lot. I was just trying to stay accurate with my posts.

Mapman,

It is entirely relevant when you say that you do not understand or can't hear it. Benchmark is a great product, but you do the OP and others a disservice leading them to believe it is perfect or that transports don't matter. They do. A poor transport will cripple any DAC. A poorly set up server can suck too- even if it is bit perfect. Itunes is bit perfect, Pure music sounds better and it is bit perfect too. Presumably Amarra is better yet, but I don't want to spend that much on software. There is complicated math that goes on in the conversion processes that mates with important clocks. It is amazing anything close to music comes out at all. I don't pretend to understand it all, but I have repeatable evidence. Different systems with similar results on various DACs. YMMV

Demianm,

The Benchmark HDR has 3 spidif (coax) inputs with an analog in.

Swanny,

The Bel Canto in not asynchronous USB (I do not know what async upsampling is).
Their site: "The USB input goes through a 3rd de-jitter stage to insure optimum playback from computer based sources."

Kijanki,

I am not sure where to start. Jitter- Duh, that is what I was talking about. The Benchmark is not really async, but adaptive if I understand it. Regardless you contradicted yourself. First you said that transports won't make a difference. Now you are saying "Once you have different transports all bets are off." I agree with the latter, and also agree that there are cheap DVD players that make good transports.

Mapman,

I think that the technical explanation is that my systems are probably more revealing than yours. I mean no offense, but it is pretty bold to think that because you can't hear it, it doesn't exist. You really seem to like your Ohms, and I see you mentioning them frequently in the forums. They have an interesting presentation and a place amongst audiophiles, but I wouldn't say that there are known for being the most revealing speaker out there. My original digital analog "analog" loosely is:

Transport > turntable

DAC > cartridge

Jitter/timing > VTA, azimuth, anti skating etc-Possibly just as elusive, hence the use of atomic clocks for instance.

Sorry for hi jacking this thread...

Kijanki-

You do no understand async then my friend. For it to be asynchronous the dac would have to control the cpu and it does not. I am not saying it is bad. Async USB is Ayre, dCS, Wavelength and some adapters give or take a few. Firewire is intrinsically async. I don't want to get into a battle over the sounds of cables or whether or not they matter or wheter or not async usb is better than adaptive. It is pointless. If I may use your own words from your virtual system:

"I enjoy the sound a lot, especially Hyperion speakers but my experience in Audio is too limited to make any judgments or claims."

Mine is not. I was around when fancy cables came out. I couldn't hear it then, but I can in today's designs. Quit trying to be an armchair digital engineer by quoting specs. Sonics trump numbers, besides Elias of Benchmark is plenty capable of defending his product (and helpful to boot)!

Kijanki,
Where am I getting this stuff? I am not pretending to know all of the answers. I even claimed that I didn't know what async upsampling was. You are the one pretending that it is not possible to hear the jitter in the Benchmark or differences in digital cables on various sources as long as it is bit perfect. What is a bit perfect transport? Do you have a spidf bit perfect meter I could borrow or show me the bit perfect specification on a data sheet on a transport. Your claim that a bit perfect player shouldn't matter is useless info because they are all basically bit perfect or a program wouldn't load or DVD wouldn't play. Sure , you can alter the bits with DSP, but that is a different issue. My assertion (and may others mind you) is that digital transmission of music more delicate than you are presenting it as. As for the rudeness and ignorance, you should admire both. I held my tongue considering...

Thank you Al for the clarification. The Benchmark is a great DAC and can be very revealing- worth the trouble. After experimenting with one for the better part of three years, I keep finding ways to get more out of it, hence my initial post about transports mattering. I purchased a hiFace usb>spdif for hi rez (async type like ayre requiring drivers) computer use and noticed it took the usb up a notch. This lead me to experimenting with different connections on it including using my Weiss DAC as a firewire to spdif converter. The only reason I posted in the first place was that if I hadn't tried different transports (and then servers), I would have sent my first Benchmark back. The first transport I tried was an Oppo DVD player that I was looking to replace the DAC section w/. Well, that Oppo (the original), and my current Oppo (983) both suck as tranports, and yet are very servicable with video and as cd players. The same thing with an higher end 50# copper clad SACD player. Of the five transports I tried, 3 were "dull", and the best was a $40 cheapie DVD from Best Buy with an awful picture that lasted 6 months before it quit. I have a hard time imagining that only one was "bit transparent". I also know that it isn't just galvanic isolation as I have tried optical USB and it sounds different than toslink from the same server. In all of these I never had any clicks, spits or sputters (until I tried Pure Music- another story).

The Benchmark was a ground breaking product in my mind, but is not infallible. It can be sensitive to power and its input- both of which Benchmark claims isn't. Ultimately what does one expect for $1000 in this hobby anyway?