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How to upgrade in pieces - or - tell me about your journey!

Hello

I am getting started on my journey into Hifi here and I would be willing to spend about 10k over the course of a couple of years to get my system from where it is today to something a step or two above. I intend for my system to always be a stereo system at heart and also for it to stay all digital (no intention of tape, tuner or vinyl - or eveb a CD player).

My current systems is a Sonos playing Tidal or lossless FLAC files from a NAS drive. The audio outputs of the Sonos get connected to a Jolida JD-202A which is a 40W class AB tube integrated. The speakers are Energy floorstanders.

I am happy for how the system sounds with a limited number of things - such as vocal heavy folk or classic rock (pre-70s) recorded in mono. It sounds integrated across the drivers with no one element of the speaker standing out. The soundstage is narrow, but the imaging is not bad.

Unfortunately, a vast majority of the music I listen to includes
  • A lot of baroque music. So the orchestra sizes are relatively small, but the vocals and melody lines are very nimble and need to be easy to follow for the counterpoint to show.
  • modern electronic music - not dance floor fillers - but more experimental stuff ranging from IDM (Autechre, Chris Clark, Squarepusher) to ambient (Brian Eno, Max Richter)
  • A good bit of classic jazz from the Miles Davis, Coltrane, Ornette Coleman and Herbie Hancock school.
  • Lots of modern pop & rock - including bands like Wilco, Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds, Sufjan Stevens, The National, Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead who include pretty much whatever the hell they want in their music.
My goals are to get a cohesive & well-integrated sound with lots of growl in the lower frequencies and a lots of treble with no "heat" or sizzle to give that sense of extreme clarity. Imaging & dynamics are more important than a massive soundstage, though I would like off axis sound to not be completely unlistenable so that me & a couple of friends can all sit or stand by the couch and enjoy the music. I am much more interested in clear, fast and articulate bass and to have that which exists have power rather than the speaker trying to reproduce things they are going to do a terrible job at. I am happy to supplement my speakers with a JL or REL sub in the future.

So based on wanting to hear the clarity I hear in my headphones (HD650 with a headphone amp) with a similar amount of articulate bass, I want to upgrade my main stereo system in pieces. I want to go about it in the following fashion, knowing that there will be times in the middle of the process where the system will be less than ideal.

  • First, purchase a DAC (looking at the Ayre Codex) & start feeding the Sonos output through that into the amplifier.
  • Second, upgrade the speakers. I am looking to eventually end up with fairly high power solid state, so I am considering the Revel F206 or F208 speakers. I know they will fail to deliver much with my amp and be on the quiet side, but I hope that once I swap out the amp, they will start to sing.
  • Third, find a power amp that can do at least 200W into 8 ohms. Perhaps the Bryston 4BSST2, Plinius, Parasound A21 or Benchmark power amp. Or maybe even a Mcintosh 402. Connect the DAC-pre directly into it via XLR to drive the speakers.
  • Fourth, replace the sonos with a Aurelic Aeries Mini and use the USB out of that device into the Ayre Codex as I hear that it makes a much better sound.
  • Lastly, consider putting a pre-amplifier into the path if necessary and I need expansion options (or if the sound quality of the dac suffers badly due to chopped off bits at low volumes)

So my final system would likely look like

Aurelic Aeries (Mini) -> Ayre Codex DAC -> (Ayre Pre-amp) -> Bryston/Parasound/Plinius/Benchmark/Mcintosh amp -> Revel Performa 3 F208.

I expect this whole process to last me about a couple of years.

Does this sound like a journey worth embarking upon? Anything there that sounds to like it would be a really dumb idea?
badri

Showing 11 responses by mapman

mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
What model Energy floorstanders specifically?

Also please describe room.   How big, dimensions, any special features that might affect acoustics.

What are you not getting with the bass currently compared to your goal?

If it were me, I'd start with getting the bass effortless and sounding good.  That's the hardest part.  Poor bass can obscure other things that might be heard otherwise.   Or speakers may not be capable of producing enough bass in a larger room alone.

Then tweak the other details.  DAC upgrade might be a good idea but not until speaker/room acoustics sound right as is.  

A 40 watt tube integrated should do a decent job in up to a modest size room with most speakers but to optimize things you might need speakers that can go louder and clearer off 40 tube watts, especially for the modern electronic music.  Or a different amp.  Or add powered subs to what you have.   Many ways to skin the cat effectively.


mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Badri what kind of floor?    Is it an upper level suspended plywood floor?  Mainly does it have some give or is it rock solid like cement foundation level?    Bass you describe can often be tamed by acoustically isolating speakers from floors on upper levels of a house or if not a solid foundation to start.  
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Ah well if an apartment (with others below) and hardwood floors even more reason to isolate no matter what speakers used.

I use use auralex subdude isolation platforms available on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-Acoustics-SubDude-II-Subwoofer-Isolation/dp/B00DI5AXNI

Under my floor standers with similar flooring. These are not expensive and work like a charm.

For monitors I use isoacoustics stands also available for similar cost on Amazon and these are similarly effective in cleaning up bass very nicely.

Your room is not large so you probably do not need very large speakers necessarily with the right amplification.

Once you clean up the bass you’ll be in a much better place to consider any other upgrades if needed. A good external dac on Sonos sounds like a good idea.

A nice decorative rug in front of the speakers to help absorb floor reflections would be another easy add to try once things are cleaned up a bit.




mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Badri the speakers just need to sit on the felted plywood pad squarely and securely, like a subwoofer would. If they sit firmly on the current hardwood they should sit even more firmly on the pad. No spikes needed (they would probably rip teh felt cover).

I use mine with 36" tall OHM Walsh speakers that have a 12X12 inch square base and 4 fairly conventional wooden feet.

I am willing to bet these help clean up your bass nicely. They do for me and many others report similar results That is what they are designed for specifically though most use them for dedicated subwoofers.

Try it and see. Should help in your case with most any floorstanding speaker you might end up with that fit on them as well.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Badri, I'm pretty sure they can only help.   We'll see.  They look nice under the speakers in any case.    If not, easily returnable to Amazon so nothing to loose really.   Plus if it works it will save you a lot of money down the road by helping hear what you buy better as opposed to the room and floors.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
EBM, if you have suspended plywood wood floors, you should try these under your Magico floorstanders as well. Unless the bass sounds perfect already of course. Magicos may have effective isolation from floors built in already. Dunno. If not whats another $100 for something nice looking to put them on.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Someone above mentioned monitors in a small room which is normally a perfect fit. Even those on many stands will still interact with floors and can be improved. I use Isoacoustics stands under my Triangle Titus XS monitors in a 12X12 room. Could never get the bass right in there prior. Always either too much or too little and not defined or articulate.  Floor interactions are the enemy.   In my basement, with thin carpet and pad on concrete foundation, no additional isolation is needed with the same speakers because the floor/foundation the speakers sit on is rock solid (literally) to start with.   Isolating speakers from floors provides similar results when needed, I find.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
I do neither. I use Subdude platform for floorstanders and Isoacoustics brand stands for monitors. In addition to providing similar isolation, the stands get the monitors off the floor and provide optional upward tilt as needed.

There may be other good isolation products that might provide other options if needed but these are the two I have used and find to both to deliver similarly better results in each case.

http://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics-1004209-ISO-L8R155-Medium-Pair/dp/B008GOP79G

You have to make sure to get the right size Isoacoustics stands to fit specific monitors best.

Also note that Isoacoustics are short stands often used on desks, but having tried various monitors on higher, heavy, high quality spiked stands in my problematic room, I find use of Isoacoustics on the floor with upward tilt as needed to provide the best results. There may be other stands available that focus mainly on isolating speakers from floor interactions. Spiked stands alone though solid are also often quite rigid and still transmit vibrations and may not do the job with very lively flooring I have found.  Products that isolate well (as opposed to coupling to the floor, which is the opposite of isolating) tend to have some give that absorbs vibrations before they reach the floor.

Coupling is a good approach in some cases where floor interactions are not obtrusive, like in my basement with carpeted solid concrete foundation for the floor..   When floors are lively or built to have some give (the normal case with modern construction to better withstand earthquakes, etc.), isolation rather than coupling is the key.




mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Cool I am looking forward to hearing.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Plex software includes apps and server and runs on most all common platforms including Android and the app has gotten quite good on the last year or so and continues to get better. I’ve been going towards PLEX rather than Sonos (proprietary hardware) to replace my current Squeeze system and devices someday soon.  You can start for free with  Plex and CD quality sound if you already have computers, and common streamers or mobile devices.  
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,574 posts
 
Excellent.   Sounds like subdudes are doing their thing.   Now you are in a much better place to assess from here.

Not familiar with those speakers specifically but I am pretty sure you can do better without necessarily spending a fortune.  
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