I’m just starting to take CD seriously, and for the first time, installed some digital equipment in my main system. The difference in sound among different CDs of the same album is as dramatic as the differences in vinyl LP pressings of the same record. I don’t know that there is any rule of thumb--
I agree that some of the early CDs sound very good-- I got a copy of a Japan for US Tumbleweed Connection out of curiosity- for $1.91 on E-Bay. (I was the only bidder).
I have several early DJM pressings of the record on vinyl and that one was recommended on the Hoffman forum as ’close’ to the sound of the early DJM vinyl pressings (which if you get a good one, can have unbelievable bass, impact and spaciousness). I know that there’s a ’thing’ about the Target CDs- I presume it’s because they were early, German, and some were flat transfers.
As to Zep on CD, I haven’t a clue but you might poke around the Hoffman forum, as suggested. (I have a pretty deep shelf of older Zep LP pressings, along with a few reissues and every one is noticeably different in sound).
If you look at older threads on Hoffman, you’ll see some deeper comparisons rather than simply unequivocal statements about which one is ’best.’ I have not done that b/c most of the reason I’m chasing CD now is for rare and obscure stuff that is crazy money as an original LP pressing and hasn’t gotten a decent vinyl reissue. Thus, there are only a handful of choices for the deep archive stuff. As for the standard ’classic rock’ repertoire, Hoffman forum is probably your best resource for anecdotal information on the sonics of different releases, but use it as a guide- it is still no substitute for listening and making your own evaluations. |
I just took a quick cruise through some of the Hoffman threads on Zep and there appear to be three major eras: the ’originals’, which I gather were mastered by Barry Diament; the ’90s era George Marino remasters and the John Davis remasters that were done at the time the Zep catalog was reissued on vinyl in the last several years. There does not appear to be a consensus (shocking).
When those new vinyl issues came out, I bought the first three albums on LP, just out of curiosity, and though they were clean, quiet, had deep bass and were very ’clear’ sounding, they didn’t convey the same immediacy and punch of some of the better vinyl pressings, e.g., the US RL mastering of II, which may be the best sounding Zep record extant. It has a freight train delivery.
None of the Zep albums are in my view of audiophile quality-- it is somewhat sad, given the significance of the band, that they weren’t able to put together better quality recordings.
That said, I bought the recent vinyl reissue of How the West Was Won, which was also mastered by John Davis, and it sounds surprisingly good for a live recording.
I’m sure there are outliers out there too-- for example, my best sounding copy of LZ1 on LP (and I have quite a few different pressings, some rare or expensive) is a Japanese pressing done in the early ’70s on Warner-Pioneer. That’s the reason why I suggested you take a listen for yourself. I am a fan of the early Zep (my favorite album is still the debut which is a poor recording in my view) and spent a fair amount of time and money buying multiple copies (mostly older pressings) to find the ones I thought sounded best. That said, it was a somewhat expensive, time consuming endeavor. I suspect you could do the same with the CDs, and it probably wouldn’t cost as much, but it would be time consuming. And, even with that, different ’pressings’ or masterings are often strong in one area and lacking in another. So, you wind up picking the versions that best match your listening preference and system strengths/weaknesses.
Now you’re gonna get me to start evaluating these things on CD!
PS: I just took a quick look on Discogs and the Diament mastering of LZ 1 seems to cost about 3 bucks! (Granted, most are a little more expensive, but if that is reflective of the cost of most of the CDs, you could do these evaluations yourself pretty cheaply, at least compared to sussing out the vinyl LPs). Good luck, and have fun, part of the enjoyment of this is the hunt. |
@n80- I too am a big fan of blues, both the old rural stuff (I buy transcriptions, I don’t play 78s) as well as the electric era (from Chicago ’50s era to British blues revival). If you like crushing blues rock, try Barbed Wire Sandwich by Black Cat Bones- it was sort of a crude precursor to Free, without the vocal quality of Paul Rodgers, but it’s a killer. (I have a couple CDs of it, the original vinyl pressing is pretty big money- I’ll try and figure out which one I have that sounds better). Free’s first album, Tons of Sobs, is also a great, great blues rock record- Guy Stevens at Island had a very loose hand, and the band didn’t sound very "produced." Not sure about CD versions of that, but before they morphed into that ’Bad Company’ sound, they were first a monster hard rock/blues act.
That’s cool that you go to Clarksdale (ville). We passed through a couple years ago on our way down to Greenwood, Miss. Despite the bleak history of the Delta, it was surprisingly lush and beautiful- and people couldn’t have been nicer. I did have to ask what ’come-back sauce’ was. :)
PS: the Barbed Wire Sandwich CD that sounds better than the other one I bought is BGOCD916, allegedly mastered from the tapes. Not too pricey. Check Discogs for the BGO copy, circa 2010, i think. That may lead you to Leaf Hound, Growers of Mushroom, which has a very Zep 1.5 sound. The original vinyl record goes for astronomical money. I think the See for Miles CD was made from the tape. I can check. |
I’m not a big fan of Geddie Lee’s voice, but I know there are lots of discussions over the merits of various pressings and I have a couple of the records here somewhere. And Floyd- well, Wish You Were Here and Dark Side are obvious favorites, the latter having been done with Alan Parsons. Back to your original question about production values, I’d say yes-- those bands probably have better sounding recordings than Zep did. I think the Stones (and I’m not a great fan of theirs either, though I liked the Mick Taylor era best) had some really awful sounding recordings when they were at their peak. Sticky Fingers, Exile, etc. I have an early stereo UK pressing of Let it Bleed that sounds great, though.
Thing is, a lot of the standard Redbook is pretty much bargain basement pricing and going down, while SACDs and some of the fancier CD issues command money. I think you could spend wisely and buy a whole lotta CDs for your money these days. I bought a bag full at one of the local stores- not necessarily knowing what all of them would sound like, sonically. They were cheap enough-- 3-5 bucks a pop that it was worth just grabbing them. For those that suck, I can simply sell them back to the store for a buck or whatever --
FWIW, the "loudness wars" is all about having everything at '11'-- it's a certain style of recording/production/mastering- so there is no dynamic range, i.e., contrast between loud and soft. As a result, what you hear is very flat in a dimensional sense, with little life-- kinda dead sounding, b/c everything is brought up (or down) to the same levels through the use of compression. |
Amazon is probably the least granular in terms of specific issue information and if it is a third party seller, I'm not sure how easy it is to communicate with them. I have gotten a few surprises via Amazon though- buying reissued vinyl, used and getting valuable original pressings. Crazy. The seller simply didn't know what they had.
Ebay- I have bought a lot of old vinyl over the years and almost always verify precise pressing, matrices, mastering inscriptions, etc. by communication with the seller. It also helps separate the seller who is clueless from the ones who are knowledgeable (though I've bought rare, valuable records from people who really didn't know the details but were willing to verify them for me).
Discogs is highly granular in terms of listings for each pressing and variation (to the extent it is in the database- remember it is crowd-sourced). But, I still verify. Some one will be lazy and stick their copy of whatever in the first tranche they see, and it has no correlation with the specific pressing or issue listed. If you go to Discogs, you'll see a drop down for almost every item with the various issues over the years. I use it sometimes to cross-check matrices, but even then it isn't foolproof.
Cool that you lived there. What history! I saw the road for Parchman Farm but figured I really didn't belong there. - |
@rettrussell- Welcome to Audiogon since it appears that was your first post. The recent LZ reissues on vinyl are fine and probably better than trashed old copies found in most used record bins. But, if you compare the reissue to an RL of II (or the UK plum), or to a UK first press of III (or the Canadian TG), you’ll hear a difference. Whether that’s worth the price of admission is another question since the copies I mentioned are expensive if you want to find a clean unmolested player. (the Canadian III isn’t super expensive just not as many of them around with the right deadwax).
I really stop after the first album but listen to the others occasionally. The first album was the toughest for me to find a good sounding copy. The Piros 74 remaster that is the ’fav’ on Hoffman is around and close to great for what it is- market is probably just under $100 for a mint- copy pressed at Monarch. The RL of HOTH is cheap and gettable. The other copies I have are all over the place, some Classic 45s, some Classic 33s, various UK and US pressings from the era when the records were released or remasters done shortly thereafter.
Let me underscore that none of this relates to the CDs- I simply haven’t listened to them. Sorry if that’s a diversion, but to the extent I was contributing to the confusion, that’s my take. The new records are fine, unless you want something better at a price. And, for the most part, you are in collector territory and dealing with condition issues. |
