2. amps-preamps
  3. 1355905155

how much of a difference should equipment make?

I spent the last few months looking for a good sounding 2 channel setup and this is what I ended up with:

McIntosh C50 Preamp
McIntosh MC275 Amp (VI)
SF Cremona M
Audioquest King Cobra XLR
Audioquest Carbon USB
Audioquest Rockefeller SW

Let me just get this out of the way and say it up front.. While the speakers (and their placement in my room) seemed to make a huge difference, the amp, preamp, and cables do not seem to make any discernable difference to me or my wife.

I feel like I have purchased the C50/MC275 due to a combination of the integrated DAC, aesthetics, heritage, level of support, and resale value.

We compared several options at home and in high end audio shops.. For example, in one store, I got to listen to the Cremona M's through a pair of MC1.2kw+C2300+AyreQB9 and then immediately following that, the C50 paired with a single MC275. I really wanted to hear a difference, but nothing. In the same store, I was also able to listen to a Music Fidelity M6 and luxman 550AX connected to the same speakers.

I brought home a demo of a luxman 550AX integrated and an MA6600 McIntosh integrated and did several days of A/B testing with the Cremona M's and we could not detect a difference at all. I tried to make sure that decibel levels were matched by playing a test tone and using an SPL meter.

I am using Jriver with ASIO with a variety of music off of hdtracks.. the music is being sent to the DAC in the C50 via audioquest carbon USB cable in bit perfect asynchronous mode.

I checked the MC275 manual and McIntosh recommends 12AWG wire. When I had a pair of audioquest type 4 connected (which was only 16 AWG), we did detect a small improvement when moving to the 12 gauge Rockeller wires. I did not test any cheaper speaker wire. This was the only time that I heard something other than the speakers make an audible difference.

I was also able to compare a peachtree iDAC and Ayre DAC at my home and I did not detect much (if any) difference between the DAC built in to the C50. I do have the latest firmware.

I heard huge differences when cross shopping speakers and doing A/B tests in stores.. for example, B&W 802D seemed to have much more 'oomph' on the low end, but lacked some midrange and high vocal clarity. It felt a bit like voices were not 'tight' compared to the Sonus Faber line. I listened to a pair of SF Elipsa and they sounded similar to the Cremona M but a bit more 'full'. As if the depth of the sound stage increased and also the bass had a bit more impact.

Although I do not hear any difference in preamp/amp/cabling, it does not mean that a difference does not exist. I am not trying to insult anyone here.. it may just be that the combinations of equipment that I have tried are still somehow 'lacking'.

My questions are as follows....:

1) Is it normal to not hear much (or any??) difference when changing out preamps or amps assuming the components in question are within similar specs?

2) Has anyone else purchased relatively expensive amp/preamp combinations even when you believe the components are not making a difference in the sound quality?

3) Placement and angle of my speakers in my room make almost as much of a difference as the brand and model of the speaker - at least to me. Anyone else have this experience?

4) What am I doing wrong that is leading to not hearing a difference?

I do not believe my ears are at fault.. My wife and friends were with me throughout most of my testing and they came to the same conclusions.

In any event, my setup at home sounds great to me and rivals (again, to my ear) most everything I have heard in audio stores.

Thanks,
ecsrun
56 responses Add your response
sgordon1
425 posts
 
Stewie,

Whether you like or don't like Walker's ideas, you still don't have to buy his products. They are two very different issues, aren't they? You can say
"controlling vibration and paying attention to quality cables"
are worthwhile subjects and still come to your own conclusions as to how (or even whether) you will address them. As to dollars and "value," every consumer wrestles with that balance on their own. And in the world of
high-end audio, the perception of value can widely differ, among us.

The post was started by someone who might not be familiar
with the concepts in that article, and that was my only purpose in
referencing it.
cruz123
586 posts
 
After years of playing around with high-end gear, I am now inclined to largely agree with the OP. In my experience, the speakers ability to sound good in the listeners' designated space is by-far the most critical aspect of achieving good sound. I do believe amps need to have sufficient power for the speakers and operate quietly, i.e. high S/N ratio, but if amps have comparable specs in these areas, they generally sound similar to me. I love my VAC gear, but I've owned and heard less expensive amps/pres that I could easily live with. Lots of marketing hype in this hobby.
bifwynne
2,206 posts
 
Let me throw my 2 cents into the DF can. I have asked about DF in numerous threads, read Atmasphere's white paper on voltage and power paradigm amps, conversed with Al, Ralph and other techies about the issue. I even called ARC and spoke with Len or Cal.

By way of background, my ARC tube amp has a DF of only 8, which is certainly in the "lowish" DF range that Al spoke about re many tube amps.

I'm not an EE, so take this with a grain of NaCl. Synthesizing everything I've read and heard, it is not realistic to predict bass slam or extention based on DF as a stand alone factor. Indeed, many of our techncial members and ARC have said that DF is just one among many design variables that are considered and balanced when designing an amp. IOW, it's the whole picture that is considered.

Does my ARC amp have the best, most super-duper extented and tight-assed bass? Haven't a clue. But the amp match with my speakers, plus me also using a self powered sub woofer (1500 watts/4500 watts on a transients) for bass at 50 Hz and below produces a nice low end product that I enjoy. And yes, sometimes I trip the circuit breakers when I'm rockin' or gettin' yelled at by my SO because the music is shakin' the casa.

I suppose, the bottom line is that if it sounds good, it is good!!

DF is a tough subject to really grasp for us non-techies. Maybe in my next life, I'll have the I.Q. to be an EE and design audio equipment. Just hope there's a hobby left on the next go-around.

Cheers and Happy Holidays!
csontos
1,311 posts
 
Another thing I've noticed about amps is that the better they are, the higher the volume you can tolerate. Although this stands to reason, it's especially significant among higher end ones since you would not expect there to be an issue with fatigue. But it seems to be the non-fatiguing ones that can be comfortably turned up to realistically live volumes for a long time. Those amps coincidentally also always seem to have great specs and they always sound good. I suppose they're the honest ones.
bifwynne
2,206 posts
 
Csontos . . . to a point, . . . just to a point. On rare occassion, I've cranked it up ALL THE WAY when rockin'.

A couple times I chcked my Radio Shack SPL meter -- SPLs were pushing 100-115dbs. You don't have to be an ENT doc to know that listening to music at those SPL levels, even for 15 minutes, can permenently damage one's ears. And yes, I did hear distortion -- but it wasn't coming from my rig, it was coming from my ears.

Just my humble opinion.
csontos
1,311 posts
 
I can still hear you! But my experience has been that the good ones don't leave your ears ringing. Of course there's a limit to everything. However I never turn the amp up to clipping. It's surprising how big an amp you can tolerate following this rule. Soon as the it starts clipping you lose everything anyway so what's the point?
Log in to respond
More to discover
80x80
Audio Research Reference Phono 3SE
80x80
Ayon Audio AYON CROSSFIRE P/A STEREO AMP
80x80
VAC 300.1 Tube Amplifier